Celtics News

[Roy H.]

Tatum, who is 3-for-13 on game-tying or go-ahead field goal attempts in the final 10 seconds of fourth quarter and overtimes over the past two seasons, admitted afterward he rushed the shot. He said he didn’t know if Denver would use its final foul to give, which would have forced the Celtics, who were out of timeouts, to inbound the ball again. “I think I kind of rushed it, and that’s on me,” he said. “In the back of my mind, I wasn’t sure if they were going to foul. They had a foul to give. But I had more time than I gave myself, so I should have taken some more time. “But, can’t go back. Something I can learn from.” – via Tim Bontemps @ ESPN

I just think they are trying way too hard at times to make Tatum take the final shot.

Does Mazzulla not have any other plays?? This stuff is becoming predictable. It's getting to the point where opponents are mixing up defensive coverages or schemes and it's throwing the C's off apparently. Is there an adjustment on our end? Why can't White or someone else be schemed up to have an open look.

When you look at the biggest game winners in history, they come from guys like Horry, Paxson, Kerr, etc.  Paul Pierce gave it up to Delonte West.

With us, we'd rather have Tatum force a shot than let any of the other four all-star caliber players take it.

[Surferdad]

I am interested to track how Horford and Porzingis are doing and how they are doing together.  I wanted to see how they do when playing with other starters (Tatum, Brown, White, Holiday) in either 1-big line ups or when they play together:

                              Minutes     +/-       Pace    Possessions    Per 100
Porzingis+Starters      336       118      102.47       717.3         16.5
Horford+Starters        157         18      103.21       337.6          5.3
Por+Hor+Starters       182         51      103.94       394.1         12.9

The last column is +/- per 100 possessions based on actual minutes and pace.  These are taken from 5-man line ups only for lines ups with starters (and Horford).  No bench time is mixed in with this.  All combinations are doing well, 2-big or 1-big, but Horford as the 1-big is the least productive.

Nice work. This tells me the best lineup is getting the most minutes, which is a good thing.

[Phantom255x]

Tatum, who is 3-for-13 on game-tying or go-ahead field goal attempts in the final 10 seconds of fourth quarter and overtimes over the past two seasons, admitted afterward he rushed the shot. He said he didn’t know if Denver would use its final foul to give, which would have forced the Celtics, who were out of timeouts, to inbound the ball again. “I think I kind of rushed it, and that’s on me,” he said. “In the back of my mind, I wasn’t sure if they were going to foul. They had a foul to give. But I had more time than I gave myself, so I should have taken some more time. “But, can’t go back. Something I can learn from.” – via Tim Bontemps @ ESPN

I just think they are trying way too hard at times to make Tatum take the final shot.

Does Mazzulla not have any other plays?? This stuff is becoming predictable. It's getting to the point where opponents are mixing up defensive coverages or schemes and it's throwing the C's off apparently. Is there an adjustment on our end? Why can't White or someone else be schemed up to have an open look.

When you look at the biggest game winners in history, they come from guys like Horry, Paxson, Kerr, etc.  Paul Pierce gave it up to Delonte West.

With us, we'd rather have Tatum force a shot than let any of the other four all-star caliber players take it.

Funny enough, while this isn't the "final 10 seconds of games", I thought often times Smart would absolutely love to chuck it in the 4th quarter of close games "in the clutch" because other teams left him open and dared him. Nearly screwed us big time in the 2022 ECF Game 7 with a 98-85 lead becoming 98-96 and almost a Butler 3 from trailing.

Now it almost feels like there's an emphasis for Tatum to take those shots even if it's predictable.

[Yuckabuck33]

Tatum, who is 3-for-13 on game-tying or go-ahead field goal attempts in the final 10 seconds of fourth quarter and overtimes over the past two seasons, admitted afterward he rushed the shot. He said he didn’t know if Denver would use its final foul to give, which would have forced the Celtics, who were out of timeouts, to inbound the ball again. “I think I kind of rushed it, and that’s on me,” he said. “In the back of my mind, I wasn’t sure if they were going to foul. They had a foul to give. But I had more time than I gave myself, so I should have taken some more time. “But, can’t go back. Something I can learn from.” – via Tim Bontemps @ ESPN

I just think they are trying way too hard at times to make Tatum take the final shot.

Does Mazzulla not have any other plays?? This stuff is becoming predictable. It's getting to the point where opponents are mixing up defensive coverages or schemes and it's throwing the C's off apparently. Is there an adjustment on our end? Why can't White or someone else be schemed up to have an open look.

When you look at the biggest game winners in history, they come from guys like Horry, Paxson, Kerr, etc.  Paul Pierce gave it up to Delonte West.

With us, we'd rather have Tatum force a shot than let any of the other four all-star caliber players take it.

Joe said on the Reddick podcast that he thinks the best shot on the final play is to get the ball in the hands of your best player and let them create. So yes, we try hard to make Tatum take the last shot.
Everybody forgets that the famous 1987 game 5 "Bird steals the ball" play began with getting the ball into the hands of our best player and letting him create. And Bird was stuffed badly at the rim, which is why the Pistons were celebrating and making mistakes. And I don't think Tatum is a good enough isolation player to end every close game that way.

[Roy H.]

While Porzingis made Sunday night's win his fourth game of the season scoring over 30 points -- grabbing 32 points on 11-of-21 from the field -- it was his 3-point shooting and blocks that made franchise history. The 7-footer became the first Celtics player ever to log five blocks and six 3-pointers in a game.

[Donoghus]

While Porzingis made Sunday night's win his fourth game of the season scoring over 30 points -- grabbing 32 points on 11-of-21 from the field -- it was his 3-point shooting and blocks that made franchise history. The 7-footer became the first Celtics player ever to log five blocks and six 3-pointers in a game.

At first glance, it's like "wow, that's impressive given the history of the Celtics", then you realize that 7 foot big men weren't exactly shooting shoot voluminous 3 pointers from  1979 'til last decade or so.

[CelticsWhat35]

While Porzingis made Sunday night's win his fourth game of the season scoring over 30 points -- grabbing 32 points on 11-of-21 from the field -- it was his 3-point shooting and blocks that made franchise history. The 7-footer became the first Celtics player ever to log five blocks and six 3-pointers in a game.

At first glance, it's like "wow, that's impressive given the history of the Celtics", then you realize that 7 foot big men weren't exactly shooting shoot voluminous 3 pointers from  1979 'til last decade or so.

He obviously had a great game, but it’s always so stupid when people throw out those types of stats.  It’s a completely different game.  We have horrible shooters taking more 3’s per game than Larry Bird or Reggie Miller did in their careers, so it’s pointless to throw out stats that include 3PM

[Ed Monix]

[BitterJim]

Tatum, who is 3-for-13 on game-tying or go-ahead field goal attempts in the final 10 seconds of fourth quarter and overtimes over the past two seasons, admitted afterward he rushed the shot. He said he didn’t know if Denver would use its final foul to give, which would have forced the Celtics, who were out of timeouts, to inbound the ball again. “I think I kind of rushed it, and that’s on me,” he said. “In the back of my mind, I wasn’t sure if they were going to foul. They had a foul to give. But I had more time than I gave myself, so I should have taken some more time. “But, can’t go back. Something I can learn from.” – via Tim Bontemps @ ESPN

I just think they are trying way too hard at times to make Tatum take the final shot.

Does Mazzulla not have any other plays?? This stuff is becoming predictable. It's getting to the point where opponents are mixing up defensive coverages or schemes and it's throwing the C's off apparently. Is there an adjustment on our end? Why can't White or someone else be schemed up to have an open look.

When you look at the biggest game winners in history, they come from guys like Horry, Paxson, Kerr, etc.  Paul Pierce gave it up to Delonte West.

With us, we'd rather have Tatum force a shot than let any of the other four all-star caliber players take it.

Joe said on the Reddick podcast that he thinks the best shot on the final play is to get the ball in the hands of your best player and let them create. So yes, we try hard to make Tatum take the last shot.
Everybody forgets that the famous 1987 game 5 "Bird steals the ball" play began with getting the ball into the hands of our best player and letting him create. And Bird was stuffed badly at the rim, which is why the Pistons were celebrating and making mistakes. And I don't think Tatum is a good enough isolation player to end every close game that way.

I don't think those two statements are equivalent (or at least, they shouldn't be). Tatum should 110% be the one with the ball in his hands at the end of the game, but we be using the other 4 players on the court to help him create opportunities or take advantage of the defense when they focus on him. If someone else gets open, Tatum should find them.

Basically, I agree with Joe that Tatum should have the ball, but I disagree with Joe's apparent unwillingness to help him once he gets it. Tatum is great, but we should be putting him in a position to succeed.

[SparzWizard]

I disagree with almost everything Joe says and preaches, so he should think about creating more efficient ATO plays to make it less predictable for defenses. Such as, getting it in Derrick White's hands or Kristaps Porzingis' hands.

And no, I don't want Jaylen Brown handling the ball last cuz he'd just turn it over to the opponent

[Who]

Tatum, who is 3-for-13 on game-tying or go-ahead field goal attempts in the final 10 seconds of fourth quarter and overtimes over the past two seasons, admitted afterward he rushed the shot. He said he didn’t know if Denver would use its final foul to give, which would have forced the Celtics, who were out of timeouts, to inbound the ball again. “I think I kind of rushed it, and that’s on me,” he said. “In the back of my mind, I wasn’t sure if they were going to foul. They had a foul to give. But I had more time than I gave myself, so I should have taken some more time. “But, can’t go back. Something I can learn from.” – via Tim Bontemps @ ESPN

I just think they are trying way too hard at times to make Tatum take the final shot.

Does Mazzulla not have any other plays?? This stuff is becoming predictable. It's getting to the point where opponents are mixing up defensive coverages or schemes and it's throwing the C's off apparently. Is there an adjustment on our end? Why can't White or someone else be schemed up to have an open look.

When you look at the biggest game winners in history, they come from guys like Horry, Paxson, Kerr, etc.  Paul Pierce gave it up to Delonte West.

With us, we'd rather have Tatum force a shot than let any of the other four all-star caliber players take it.

Joe said on the Reddick podcast that he thinks the best shot on the final play is to get the ball in the hands of your best player and let them create. So yes, we try hard to make Tatum take the last shot.
Everybody forgets that the famous 1987 game 5 "Bird steals the ball" play began with getting the ball into the hands of our best player and letting him create. And Bird was stuffed badly at the rim, which is why the Pistons were celebrating and making mistakes. And I don't think Tatum is a good enough isolation player to end every close game that way.

I don't think those two statements are equivalent (or at least, they shouldn't be). Tatum should 110% be the one with the ball in his hands at the end of the game, but we be using the other 4 players on the court to help him create opportunities or take advantage of the defense when they focus on him. If someone else gets open, Tatum should find them.

Basically, I agree with Joe that Tatum should have the ball, but I disagree with Joe's apparent unwillingness to help him once he gets it. Tatum is great, but we should be putting him in a position to succeed.

I still see this as the "Rudy Gay Problem".

This phenomenom that was created out of Michael Jordan who was the both the best player in the league & the best scorer in the league at the same time. And he became one of if not THE best clutch player in the league on top of it.

And because MJ was all these things, he ended up with the ball in his hands at the end of games every single time. So then all other teams started copying this. Oh, let's give our best player the ball because that is what Chicago did with MJ and that worked.

So every team started giving their best player the ball and letting him iso at the end of quarters or games, play one-on-one and live or die on his individual brilliance.

Well that is one thing when your best player is Michael Jordan. The MVP of the league. The leading scorer of the league. Clutch. It is a whole other kettle of fish when your best player is Rudy Gay.

Yet, logic says "give your best player the ball" and "live or die / win or lose" based on his one-on-one play.

Very few players are good enough to justify this approach to basketball. It has been terrible for so many years. For 20+ years we have had this Michael Jordan hangover where the ideas of what applies to Jordan should apply to whoever Player X (Rudy Gay) is as the best player on whatever team they are on.

(1) Teams usually get better shots running proper offense than running an iso where the opposition defense can load up on the ball-handler.

(2) Your best player is not always your best scorer.

(3) Your best scorer is not always your best clutch scorer.

George Gervin was an example of this. One of the most prolific scorers in the league but they weren't running isos for him at the end of games. That wasn't how he scored. Gervin was opportunistic and varied in his scoring so he scored a ton without running much He scored within the flow of the game. They ran plays for James Silas instead. He was their best clutch scorer. He was better at making shots both off the dribble and also with a hand in his face (contested shots vs uncontested shots). So Silas was their clutch scorer. Gervin was their main scorer throughout the game.

Another example of this is Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups. Rip their main scorer throughout the game. Chauncey their best clutch scorer. Also, DET ran proper offensive sets late in games because Chauncey couldn't just "MJ it" and go one-on-one all the time.

[ozgod]

I disagree with almost everything Joe says and preaches, so he should think about creating more efficient ATO plays to make it less predictable for defenses. Such as, getting it in Derrick White's hands or Kristaps Porzingis' hands.

And no, I don't want Jaylen Brown handling the ball last cuz he'd just turn it over to the opponent

I guess the issue is that once you create an ATO play it's on tape and can easily be reviewed and planned for by opposing teams. Like that ATO play we ran last season with Tatum going into the backcourt and running towards the basket while the ball was inbounded to someone (usually Smart) at the logo where he then bounced it to Tatum going downhill for either a drive or a pull up 3. It worked great twice until everyone worked out a counter for it.

And when it comes to Tatum not taking the last shot, it's a [dang]ed if you do [dang]ed if you don't decision - if someone else takes the shot and misses (except Jaylen as he would just turn the ball over as Sparz said) then the Monday morning quarterbacking will be about why our best player didn't take the last shot.

What we really, really want is for the last shot to go in, doesn't matter who takes it...anything other than that outcome will be criticized 

[angryguy77]

I disagree with almost everything Joe says and preaches, so he should think about creating more efficient ATO plays to make it less predictable for defenses. Such as, getting it in Derrick White's hands or Kristaps Porzingis' hands.

And no, I don't want Jaylen Brown handling the ball last cuz he'd just turn it over to the opponent

I guess the issue is that once you create an ATO play it's on tape and can easily be reviewed and planned for by opposing teams. Like that ATO play we ran last season with Tatum going into the backcourt and running towards the basket while the ball was inbounded to someone (usually Smart) at the logo where he then bounced it to Tatum going downhill for either a drive or a pull up 3. It worked great twice until everyone worked out a counter for it.

And when it comes to Tatum not taking the last shot, it's a [dang]ed if you do [dang]ed if you don't decision - if someone else takes the shot and misses (except Jaylen as he would just turn the ball over as Sparz said) then the Monday morning quarterbacking will be about why our best player didn't take the last shot.

What we really, really want is for the last shot to go in, doesn't matter who takes it...anything other than that outcome will be criticized 

Joe has 5 guys who are capable of taking the last shot. There shoould never be a situation where the opposing defense guesses what you're going to do.

[Kernewek]

Tatum, who is 3-for-13 on game-tying or go-ahead field goal attempts in the final 10 seconds of fourth quarter and overtimes over the past two seasons, admitted afterward he rushed the shot. He said he didn’t know if Denver would use its final foul to give, which would have forced the Celtics, who were out of timeouts, to inbound the ball again. “I think I kind of rushed it, and that’s on me,” he said. “In the back of my mind, I wasn’t sure if they were going to foul. They had a foul to give. But I had more time than I gave myself, so I should have taken some more time. “But, can’t go back. Something I can learn from.” – via Tim Bontemps @ ESPN

I just think they are trying way too hard at times to make Tatum take the final shot.

Does Mazzulla not have any other plays?? This stuff is becoming predictable. It's getting to the point where opponents are mixing up defensive coverages or schemes and it's throwing the C's off apparently. Is there an adjustment on our end? Why can't White or someone else be schemed up to have an open look.

When you look at the biggest game winners in history, they come from guys like Horry, Paxson, Kerr, etc.  Paul Pierce gave it up to Delonte West.

With us, we'd rather have Tatum force a shot than let any of the other four all-star caliber players take it.

Joe said on the Reddick podcast that he thinks the best shot on the final play is to get the ball in the hands of your best player and let them create. So yes, we try hard to make Tatum take the last shot.
Everybody forgets that the famous 1987 game 5 "Bird steals the ball" play began with getting the ball into the hands of our best player and letting him create. And Bird was stuffed badly at the rim, which is why the Pistons were celebrating and making mistakes. And I don't think Tatum is a good enough isolation player to end every close game that way.

I don't think those two statements are equivalent (or at least, they shouldn't be). Tatum should 110% be the one with the ball in his hands at the end of the game, but we be using the other 4 players on the court to help him create opportunities or take advantage of the defense when they focus on him. If someone else gets open, Tatum should find them.

Basically, I agree with Joe that Tatum should have the ball, but I disagree with Joe's apparent unwillingness to help him once he gets it. Tatum is great, but we should be putting him in a position to succeed.

Therein lies the rub - if Tatum has the ball at the end of the game, nine times out of ten (and maybe ninety-five times out of one-hundred) he's going to shoot it. That's the player that he is. It's been the same for three coaches now.

Like most NBA fan (I think) I have a litany of plays that float around my head from time to time - and a lot of them are there for no particular reason. This Carmelo Anthony pass from 2010 is one of them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UretF96tyI

I think I remember it because one: it's a tremendous highlight-reel pass, and two: it's one of a handful of times I remember Carmelo making a memorable assist, rather than a memorable shot.

Tatum isn't quite the shoot-first-and-shoot-second player that 'Melo was in his prime, but he's not a born passer, especially not in the last five minutes when we're behind or tied.

Now, to give him credit, he's massively improved since his first year as a primary offensive feature under Udoka, going from a 4.2 assist ratio (not a typo, four-point-two) in those circumstances [the last five minutes of games where we're behind or tied], to a 12.5 last year and a 12.2 this year thus far, but overall our late-game passing hasn't really recovered since Stevens was the head coach, and I think Tatum's skillset is part of the reason why.

[Roy H.]