Author Topic: Brads comments on series vs Nets  (Read 16180 times)

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Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #90 on: May 30, 2021, 03:52:57 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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I never heard Red Auerbach talk like that. I thought it was pretty strange.

Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2021, 04:59:40 PM »

Offline coco

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I don't think Stevens has a handle on this team. He certainly can't handle bigs.

He certainly got the most out of Theis, Baynes and Horford.  Timelord looks promising despite a fragile body. 

He utilized Kanter less effectively.  What other bigs do you think he has mishandled?

There’s only so much a guy can do with 6’8” C/PFs who play below the rim.

Brad has taken the mediocre Cs to the ECF 3 of last 5 years.
He is a great coach

Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2021, 12:56:02 AM »

Offline Somebody

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One major gripe I have with Brad this season is that he hasn't been utilising Brown all that well. It was common this year to see him have a huge quarter of feeding off of scraps (and he'll get a few possessions on the ball because teammates sense that he's hot) and proceed to stand in the corner the next 1-2 quarters in a way that almost looks instructed. This wasn't even because Tatum and Kemba were in front of him in the pecking order - we could have Smart, Teague or FastPP out there and they can still be running PnRs over and over while Jaylen is either in the corner or at the wing as an emergency bailout isolation scorer.

I wonder, though, how your observations played out over the course of the season.  There were definitely plays where Jaylin ended up in the corner, but I doubt it happened as much as you think it did.  JB put up over 19 FGAs per game, so he definitely got significant touches.  (Tatum ranks eighth in the NBA in front court touches; Jaylen is 22nd.). He was also extremely efficient per touch, which leads me to believe he was used mostly properly.
That was where my 'feeding off of scraps' comment is relevant - Jaylen found ways to score and create in spite of his role on the team by being a freight train in transition, a deadly catch and shoot scorer, making the most of his bailout isolation possessions, etc. A high efficiency per touch can definitely imply that a player is being used in an optimal role, but in Jaylen's case I see a player who's so good that he made a sub-optimal role look like an optimal one, and there's always the argument that a guy who's so efficient in a limited role should get an opportunity to play in an expanded role considering that Jaylen is a pretty skilled player from the eye test.
To expand on this now that the season is over:

PnR Ball Handler


Isolation


Post up


The Celtics use him quite a bit in handoffs and off screens (he's surprisingly terrible at the latter, but this can be somewhat explained from the mini-scouting report I wrote above - some of his possessions where he's required to bail the team out comes from him running off a screen from the corner/wing and catching the ball to do something magical with it in a few seconds, which is pretty much setting him up to fail). But my general point stands: Brad has been doing a terrible job at utilising an athletic wing with an explosive dribble drive game, accurate shooting from all three levels of the floor as well as a strong post game by sticking him to a stationary off-ball role with some handoff and screen action (which isn't inherently bad as both of these theoretically give him a runway to the basket or an open shot, but it's a problem when they constitute the bulk of his offence + one of them being used mostly when the team needs him to bail them out instead of being a regular thing we run in our sets).
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2021, 12:59:27 AM »

Kiorrik

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One major gripe I have with Brad this season is that he hasn't been utilising Brown all that well. It was common this year to see him have a huge quarter of feeding off of scraps (and he'll get a few possessions on the ball because teammates sense that he's hot) and proceed to stand in the corner the next 1-2 quarters in a way that almost looks instructed. This wasn't even because Tatum and Kemba were in front of him in the pecking order - we could have Smart, Teague or FastPP out there and they can still be running PnRs over and over while Jaylen is either in the corner or at the wing as an emergency bailout isolation scorer.

I wonder, though, how your observations played out over the course of the season.  There were definitely plays where Jaylin ended up in the corner, but I doubt it happened as much as you think it did.  JB put up over 19 FGAs per game, so he definitely got significant touches.  (Tatum ranks eighth in the NBA in front court touches; Jaylen is 22nd.). He was also extremely efficient per touch, which leads me to believe he was used mostly properly.
That was where my 'feeding off of scraps' comment is relevant - Jaylen found ways to score and create in spite of his role on the team by being a freight train in transition, a deadly catch and shoot scorer, making the most of his bailout isolation possessions, etc. A high efficiency per touch can definitely imply that a player is being used in an optimal role, but in Jaylen's case I see a player who's so good that he made a sub-optimal role look like an optimal one, and there's always the argument that a guy who's so efficient in a limited role should get an opportunity to play in an expanded role considering that Jaylen is a pretty skilled player from the eye test.
To expand on this now that the season is over:

PnR Ball Handler


Isolation


Post up


The Celtics use him quite a bit in handoffs and off screens (he's surprisingly terrible at the latter, but this can be somewhat explained from the mini-scouting report I wrote above - some of his possessions where he's required to bail the team out comes from him running off a screen from the corner/wing and catching the ball to do something magical with it in a few seconds, which is pretty much setting him up to fail). But my general point stands: Brad has been doing a terrible job at utilising an athletic wing with an explosive dribble drive game, accurate shooting from all three levels of the floor as well as a strong post game by sticking him to a stationary off-ball role with some handoff and screen action (which isn't inherently bad as both of these theoretically give him a runway to the basket or an open shot, but it's a problem when they constitute the bulk of his offence + one of them being used mostly when the team needs him to bail them out instead of being a regular thing we run in our sets).

Love the analysis. TP.

Question; in your opinion, how close are Brown and Tatum? I'm curious if we could swap their roles. How Brown would do if he was the go-to instead of Tatum.

Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2021, 01:36:56 AM »

Offline Somebody

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One major gripe I have with Brad this season is that he hasn't been utilising Brown all that well. It was common this year to see him have a huge quarter of feeding off of scraps (and he'll get a few possessions on the ball because teammates sense that he's hot) and proceed to stand in the corner the next 1-2 quarters in a way that almost looks instructed. This wasn't even because Tatum and Kemba were in front of him in the pecking order - we could have Smart, Teague or FastPP out there and they can still be running PnRs over and over while Jaylen is either in the corner or at the wing as an emergency bailout isolation scorer.

I wonder, though, how your observations played out over the course of the season.  There were definitely plays where Jaylin ended up in the corner, but I doubt it happened as much as you think it did.  JB put up over 19 FGAs per game, so he definitely got significant touches.  (Tatum ranks eighth in the NBA in front court touches; Jaylen is 22nd.). He was also extremely efficient per touch, which leads me to believe he was used mostly properly.
That was where my 'feeding off of scraps' comment is relevant - Jaylen found ways to score and create in spite of his role on the team by being a freight train in transition, a deadly catch and shoot scorer, making the most of his bailout isolation possessions, etc. A high efficiency per touch can definitely imply that a player is being used in an optimal role, but in Jaylen's case I see a player who's so good that he made a sub-optimal role look like an optimal one, and there's always the argument that a guy who's so efficient in a limited role should get an opportunity to play in an expanded role considering that Jaylen is a pretty skilled player from the eye test.
To expand on this now that the season is over:

PnR Ball Handler


Isolation


Post up


The Celtics use him quite a bit in handoffs and off screens (he's surprisingly terrible at the latter, but this can be somewhat explained from the mini-scouting report I wrote above - some of his possessions where he's required to bail the team out comes from him running off a screen from the corner/wing and catching the ball to do something magical with it in a few seconds, which is pretty much setting him up to fail). But my general point stands: Brad has been doing a terrible job at utilising an athletic wing with an explosive dribble drive game, accurate shooting from all three levels of the floor as well as a strong post game by sticking him to a stationary off-ball role with some handoff and screen action (which isn't inherently bad as both of these theoretically give him a runway to the basket or an open shot, but it's a problem when they constitute the bulk of his offence + one of them being used mostly when the team needs him to bail them out instead of being a regular thing we run in our sets).
Love the analysis. TP.

Question; in your opinion, how close are Brown and Tatum? I'm curious if we could swap their roles. How Brown would do if he was the go-to instead of Tatum.
I think both are closer than what their current stats (box and non-box) suggest: I view Brown as a top 20-30 player if utilised correctly (his quick-hitting skillset brings little to no opportunity cost to talented teammates, so there's no excuse to not consider his value in an optimal role) while Tatum is a top 15-20 player who can challenge for an All-NBA team. But Brown's optimal role isn't an on-ball star like Tatum currently is for the Celtics: he's a wing who alternates on and off the ball with minimal time of touch but still devastate defences with drives/shooting/post ups and solid passing, kind of like a Butler/Middleton hybrid without the elite wing passing as well as composure/ballhandling in tight quarters.

This is where I think we can reasonably call for Brad's sacking: instead of moving to a more egalitarian system when we had success with a more balanced system last season that sputtered when we moved away from it in the playoffs, we shifted to a heliocentric one around a guy who's not good enough to lead teams to titles in that role that stunted the growth of one of our young stars with no immediate results to justify stagnating Jaylen's growth. People might argue that we're putting all of our eggs into a Tatum-sized basket, but we can develop Tatum in an on-ball role without marginalising Brown while having better results than the crap we've been served this year!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 01:42:11 AM by Somebody »
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Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2021, 01:47:15 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Just to add something regarding Brad/Jaylen for people with reservations about sacking Brad: this has been going on for years. Brad has really soured on Jaylen since the Kryknee disaster, you can go and rewatch a game against the Hornets that season to join me on the sack Brad Stevens train (I think it was a game in March or April? But the summary of that game was Brown saving us by going supernova, rewarded by getting benched for a long time down the stretch and relegated to the corner when he finally came back on the court so golden boys Kryknee and Tatum can stink it up with their isos/PnRs).
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2021, 01:50:28 AM »

Kiorrik

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Thanks, solid response.

In line with what I hoped to hear to be honest.

I like that one's probably able to outsmart opponents with stop-and-go, handling and general craftmanship, whereas the other has a crazy ability to just out-jump, drive or fade-and-shoot with freak athleticism.

Super fun to watch the difference between the two.

Also good to have on the team. Different looks vs different teams.


Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2021, 01:57:48 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Thanks, solid response.

In line with what I hoped to hear to be honest.

I like that one's probably able to outsmart opponents with stop-and-go, handling and general craftmanship, whereas the other has a crazy ability to just out-jump, drive or fade-and-shoot with freak athleticism.

Super fun to watch the difference between the two.

Also good to have on the team. Different looks vs different teams.
Glad it was up to your expectations :laugh:

They also complement each other very well defensively: Tatum is a strong team defender who can be disruptive against certain kinds of skilled wings as a man defender, while Brown is the versatile lockdown man defender who might not look very valuable in the regular season due to his spotty team defence, but explodes in the playoffs as one of the more valauble non-big defenders in the league (if not one of the most) due to the value of having a guy who can stifle a variety of perimeter stars (he also has a second gear in the playoffs, so some of his awareness issues as a team defender are curbed by a higher motor and extra effort).
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2021, 07:04:10 AM »

Online Surferdad

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I don't think Stevens has a handle on this team. He certainly can't handle bigs.

He certainly got the most out of Theis, Baynes and Horford.  Timelord looks promising despite a fragile body. 

He utilized Kanter less effectively.  What other bigs do you think he has mishandled?

There’s only so much a guy can do with 6’8” C/PFs who play below the rim.

Brad has taken the mediocre Cs to the ECF 3 of last 5 years.
He is a great coach
I agree he's a great coach, just not a championship coach.

Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2021, 07:52:11 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Thanks, solid response.

In line with what I hoped to hear to be honest.

I like that one's probably able to outsmart opponents with stop-and-go, handling and general craftmanship, whereas the other has a crazy ability to just out-jump, drive or fade-and-shoot with freak athleticism.

Super fun to watch the difference between the two.

Also good to have on the team. Different looks vs different teams.
Glad it was up to your expectations :laugh:

They also complement each other very well defensively: Tatum is a strong team defender who can be disruptive against certain kinds of skilled wings as a man defender, while Brown is the versatile lockdown man defender who might not look very valuable in the regular season due to his spotty team defence, but explodes in the playoffs as one of the more valauble non-big defenders in the league (if not one of the most) due to the value of having a guy who can stifle a variety of perimeter stars (he also has a second gear in the playoffs, so some of his awareness issues as a team defender are curbed by a higher motor and extra effort).

Excellent notes mate. Don't agree with all of them but your analysis is consistently well-reasoned.
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Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #100 on: June 02, 2021, 10:41:17 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Thanks, solid response.

In line with what I hoped to hear to be honest.

I like that one's probably able to outsmart opponents with stop-and-go, handling and general craftmanship, whereas the other has a crazy ability to just out-jump, drive or fade-and-shoot with freak athleticism.

Super fun to watch the difference between the two.

Also good to have on the team. Different looks vs different teams.
Glad it was up to your expectations :laugh:

They also complement each other very well defensively: Tatum is a strong team defender who can be disruptive against certain kinds of skilled wings as a man defender, while Brown is the versatile lockdown man defender who might not look very valuable in the regular season due to his spotty team defence, but explodes in the playoffs as one of the more valauble non-big defenders in the league (if not one of the most) due to the value of having a guy who can stifle a variety of perimeter stars (he also has a second gear in the playoffs, so some of his awareness issues as a team defender are curbed by a higher motor and extra effort).

Excellent notes mate. Don't agree with all of them but your analysis is consistently well-reasoned.
Thanks :laugh:. I'm now extremely excited about our offseason as well as title chances going forward in the wake of recent announcements regarding our management and coaching staff, banner 18 is coming soon!
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Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #101 on: June 02, 2021, 10:57:17 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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I don't think Stevens has a handle on this team. He certainly can't handle bigs.

He certainly got the most out of Theis, Baynes and Horford.  Timelord looks promising despite a fragile body. 

He utilized Kanter less effectively.  What other bigs do you think he has mishandled?

There’s only so much a guy can do with 6’8” C/PFs who play below the rim.


Consistently coming up short isn't the mark of a great coach. You have to get over the hump and he's not been able to do so.
Brad has taken the mediocre Cs to the ECF 3 of last 5 years.
He is a great coach
Back to wanting Joe fired.

Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #102 on: June 02, 2021, 11:58:01 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The thing is he has had bigger players in the past, Monroe, and the like and never used them.   He is stuck on his system.  Kanter was all sudden contriburing once he was moved.   Heck, even Mo Wagner played better after moving on.

I mean look how long it took him to come around on Timelord being good when many others could see it.

Re: Brads comments on series vs Nets
« Reply #103 on: June 02, 2021, 12:07:36 PM »

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I'm looking forward to a head coach who will come from the outside and bring a new perspective on how to exploit the talent we have on the roster.

Also hope Stevens has a solid plan for building next year's roster.

Our current lineup has problems, but, there is time to start building the "J's team" over the next two years.