Simmons/Windhorst Podcast

[Evantime34]

The biggest hampering on the Celtics player in terms of trade is none of them have that "wow potential" connected to them.  They are a collection of solid to good players that will play hard. 


That, and the non-lotto picks this season will make trading for a star a challenge. 


That's why I think this will be another offseasons of filling up on future trade pieces.  To move the solid players for a chance at the "wow potential" to move later.

People say this a lot (fans and media) so hard to argue I guess if that's the perception, but I don't get how Smart doesn't have star potential.  He is already a top level defensive player, he's a better passer than he was advertized (or he improved a lot going into the NBA, either way) his shooting was a gigantic leap this year, and near the end of the year he seemed to realize he can attack the rim on layups and dunks.

High ceiling in my opinion.  Only issue is the dearth of PG's that are good but a lot of those PGs are terrible on defense.  Not only is Marcus great already, he can check even the SF position.

I don't even want to trade him!  Just saying.

I think we could package guys plus picks and have a good offer.  But you are right in a lot of ways if you compare to some other teams.  For example, hard to argue we can out offer for Cousins, even with all our assets, when the Magic can have assets plus a guy like Vucevic.

Maybe it'll take a year for our players to develop more to solidify as assets.

We will have tons of cap room though and I know the history, but the team could turn around quick just by signing guys if we can convince them to come.

Anyways, I'm happy we have flexibility.  Part of that strategy is being patient though, which isn't always easy.

I think Smart has a lot of untapped potential, but if you listen to what others are saying from around the league, it sounds that they don't believe that the likely ceiling is a star.  That's not to say he will not reach that level, but it would effect his trade value.

Him developing into a "rich man's Tony Allen" seems pretty fair, imo.  RIght now he's a defensive role player.  That might be his destiny.  His offensive game is pretty terrible right now and it's not like we have much of a history of converting terrible offensive players into competent ones.  I want to see him study tapes of Gary Payton, though.  I think he can develop a back-to-basket game.

I thought his offense showed flashes in the playoffs, he was able to get to the hoop a couple times a game and showed off a post game at the end of game 4. He is also only 21 and had a history as a high volume scorer in college.

The C's were trying to bring him along slowly, as evidenced by the fact that he was a good post scorer and college and barely posted up in the pros as well as how he rarely even attempted to get to the bucket.

I'm expecting big things from him next year.

[PhoSita]

I too like the idea of trading for Barnes by taking on David Lee, but I can't see why the Warriors wouldn't be able to find somebody who would just take on Lee or Iguodala individually for a pick or two.

I mean, if you're a person who is interested in seeing the Celtics make moves simply to ensure they reach the playoffs again next year, just taking on Iguodala and installing him as the starting SF would significantly improve the team.

[Evantime34]

I too like the idea of trading for Barnes by taking on David Lee, but I can't see why the Warriors wouldn't be able to find somebody who would just take on Lee or Iguodala individually for a pick or two.

I mean, if you're a person who is interested in seeing the Celtics make moves simply to ensure they reach the playoffs again next year, just taking on Iguodala and installing him as the starting SF would significantly improve the team.

Did you mean that the Warriors would give up a pick to salary dump Lee or Iguodala or that a team would trade dubs a pick for one of those guys?

In this era of teams trying to keep their cap flexibility I don't think anyone in the league would give up a pick to pay Lee 15 MM next year or Iguodala 11 mm for the next two years. The only way I'm taking on that salary if I'm the C's is i'm compensated for doing so.

[LarBrd33]

The biggest hampering on the Celtics player in terms of trade is none of them have that "wow potential" connected to them.  They are a collection of solid to good players that will play hard. 


That, and the non-lotto picks this season will make trading for a star a challenge. 


That's why I think this will be another offseasons of filling up on future trade pieces.  To move the solid players for a chance at the "wow potential" to move later.

People say this a lot (fans and media) so hard to argue I guess if that's the perception, but I don't get how Smart doesn't have star potential.  He is already a top level defensive player, he's a better passer than he was advertized (or he improved a lot going into the NBA, either way) his shooting was a gigantic leap this year, and near the end of the year he seemed to realize he can attack the rim on layups and dunks.

High ceiling in my opinion.  Only issue is the dearth of PG's that are good but a lot of those PGs are terrible on defense.  Not only is Marcus great already, he can check even the SF position.

I don't even want to trade him!  Just saying.

I think we could package guys plus picks and have a good offer.  But you are right in a lot of ways if you compare to some other teams.  For example, hard to argue we can out offer for Cousins, even with all our assets, when the Magic can have assets plus a guy like Vucevic.

Maybe it'll take a year for our players to develop more to solidify as assets.

We will have tons of cap room though and I know the history, but the team could turn around quick just by signing guys if we can convince them to come.

Anyways, I'm happy we have flexibility.  Part of that strategy is being patient though, which isn't always easy.

I think Smart has a lot of untapped potential, but if you listen to what others are saying from around the league, it sounds that they don't believe that the likely ceiling is a star.  That's not to say he will not reach that level, but it would effect his trade value.

Him developing into a "rich man's Tony Allen" seems pretty fair, imo.  RIght now he's a defensive role player.  That might be his destiny.  His offensive game is pretty terrible right now and it's not like we have much of a history of converting terrible offensive players into competent ones.  I want to see him study tapes of Gary Payton, though.  I think he can develop a back-to-basket game.

I thought his offense showed flashes in the playoffs, he was able to get to the hoop a couple times a game and showed off a post game at the end of game 4. He is also only 21 and had a history as a high volume scorer in college.

The C's were trying to bring him along slowly, as evidenced by the fact that he was a good post scorer and college and barely posted up in the pros as well as how he rarely even attempted to get to the bucket.

I'm expecting big things from him next year.

Smart's College numbers aren't very encouraging.  You pointed out that he was a volume scorer.  The fact that he shot like 40% on that level isn't a good thing.  It just shows that he's a crappy shooter with a poor offensive game.  I'm less confident in Smart's ability to develop an offensive game than I was in Ben McLemore last season.  McLemore had a poor rookie campaign, but his shooting percentages in College proved he could develop into a capable shooter on the NBA Level.  He showed a lot of development in his second season.  I don't have that same level of confidence in Smart.  He was bigger than his opponents in College and yet still wasn't a very efficient scorer.  Now that he's playing on this level against superior talent, he can't use his size to the same advantage.  It's going to be tough for him.    Defensively, he's already exceptional.  He's got hustle, heart and attitude.  The intangibles are there.  But I wouldn't bet money on him developing into a superstar.  More likely that he's the top asset in a trade package for a star.  I can't imagine any team giving up a star to Boston without getting Marcus Smart... everyone else on the roster is semi worthless.   As Windhorst points out, there's nobody on this roster who can reasonably develop into a top talent, but at least Smart has some theoretical potential that might make him appealing as a key piece of a large trade package.

[PhoSita]

Did you mean that the Warriors would give up a pick to salary dump Lee or Iguodala or that a team would trade dubs a pick for one of those guys?

Former.

[DesertDweller]

You guys are pathetic, a cesspool of negativity.  find some other team you supposedly like!!!!

[Evantime34]

Did you mean that the Warriors would give up a pick to salary dump Lee or Iguodala or that a team would trade dubs a pick for one of those guys?

Former.

Oh, then ignore my previous post.

They probably won't have the money to sign Barnes to an extension in the future with Steph's mammoth extension due in 2016. IF they decide to deal him, maybe they would accept a first from us now along with the ability to absorb Lee or Iguodala in order to move Barnes. I do agree Lee and a pick for cap space is probably more likely.

[wdleehi]

You guys are pathetic, a cesspool of negativity.  find some other team you supposedly like!!!!

If you do not like the discussion of the Celtics team and what the fans opinion are on here, look somewhere else. 


What did you expect us to talk about on here once the season was over?  How great the team that finished under 500 and was swept in the playoffs was and how we hope nothing is changed? 

[Evantime34]

The biggest hampering on the Celtics player in terms of trade is none of them have that "wow potential" connected to them.  They are a collection of solid to good players that will play hard. 


That, and the non-lotto picks this season will make trading for a star a challenge. 


That's why I think this will be another offseasons of filling up on future trade pieces.  To move the solid players for a chance at the "wow potential" to move later.

People say this a lot (fans and media) so hard to argue I guess if that's the perception, but I don't get how Smart doesn't have star potential.  He is already a top level defensive player, he's a better passer than he was advertized (or he improved a lot going into the NBA, either way) his shooting was a gigantic leap this year, and near the end of the year he seemed to realize he can attack the rim on layups and dunks.

High ceiling in my opinion.  Only issue is the dearth of PG's that are good but a lot of those PGs are terrible on defense.  Not only is Marcus great already, he can check even the SF position.

I don't even want to trade him!  Just saying.

I think we could package guys plus picks and have a good offer.  But you are right in a lot of ways if you compare to some other teams.  For example, hard to argue we can out offer for Cousins, even with all our assets, when the Magic can have assets plus a guy like Vucevic.

Maybe it'll take a year for our players to develop more to solidify as assets.

We will have tons of cap room though and I know the history, but the team could turn around quick just by signing guys if we can convince them to come.

Anyways, I'm happy we have flexibility.  Part of that strategy is being patient though, which isn't always easy.

I think Smart has a lot of untapped potential, but if you listen to what others are saying from around the league, it sounds that they don't believe that the likely ceiling is a star.  That's not to say he will not reach that level, but it would effect his trade value.

Him developing into a "rich man's Tony Allen" seems pretty fair, imo.  RIght now he's a defensive role player.  That might be his destiny.  His offensive game is pretty terrible right now and it's not like we have much of a history of converting terrible offensive players into competent ones.  I want to see him study tapes of Gary Payton, though.  I think he can develop a back-to-basket game.

I thought his offense showed flashes in the playoffs, he was able to get to the hoop a couple times a game and showed off a post game at the end of game 4. He is also only 21 and had a history as a high volume scorer in college.

The C's were trying to bring him along slowly, as evidenced by the fact that he was a good post scorer and college and barely posted up in the pros as well as how he rarely even attempted to get to the bucket.

I'm expecting big things from him next year.

Smart's College numbers aren't very encouraging.  You pointed out that he was a volume scorer.  The fact that he shot like 40% on that level isn't a good thing.  It just shows that he's a crappy shooter with a poor offensive game.  I'm less confident in Smart's ability to develop an offensive game than I was in Ben McLemore last season.  McLemore had a poor rookie campaign, but his shooting percentages in College proved he could develop into a capable shooter on the NBA Level.  He showed a lot of development in his second season.  I don't have that same level of confidence in Smart.  He was bigger than his opponents in College and yet still wasn't a very efficient scorer.  Now that he's playing on this level against superior talent, he can't use his size to the same advantage.  It's going to be tough for him.    Defensively, he's already exceptional.  He's got hustle, heart and attitude.  The intangibles are there.  But I wouldn't bet money on him developing into a superstar.  More likely that he's the top asset in a trade package for a star.  I can't imagine any team giving up a star to Boston without getting Marcus Smart... everyone else on the roster is semi worthless.   As Windhorst points out, there's nobody on this roster who can reasonably develop into a top talent, but at least Smart has some theoretical potential that might make him appealing as a key piece of a large trade package.

Did you type that on your phone? It's unlike you to send a big text block.

Where Marcus Smart impressed me as a scorer in college was with his versatility, scoring off the dribble, in catch and shoot, in the post and off screens. That is why I was encouraged watching him in college.

I wouldn't attribute all his scoring in college to being big, because I saw him scoring on PFs in the post and guards on the wing, to me his biggest college asset was his versatility, which he didn't show in his rookie year, but I expect to see next year. My opinion is Stevens brought him along slowly limiting his versatility and thus his biggest offensive attribute.

[LarBrd33]

The biggest hampering on the Celtics player in terms of trade is none of them have that "wow potential" connected to them.  They are a collection of solid to good players that will play hard. 


That, and the non-lotto picks this season will make trading for a star a challenge. 


That's why I think this will be another offseasons of filling up on future trade pieces.  To move the solid players for a chance at the "wow potential" to move later.

People say this a lot (fans and media) so hard to argue I guess if that's the perception, but I don't get how Smart doesn't have star potential.  He is already a top level defensive player, he's a better passer than he was advertized (or he improved a lot going into the NBA, either way) his shooting was a gigantic leap this year, and near the end of the year he seemed to realize he can attack the rim on layups and dunks.

High ceiling in my opinion.  Only issue is the dearth of PG's that are good but a lot of those PGs are terrible on defense.  Not only is Marcus great already, he can check even the SF position.

I don't even want to trade him!  Just saying.

I think we could package guys plus picks and have a good offer.  But you are right in a lot of ways if you compare to some other teams.  For example, hard to argue we can out offer for Cousins, even with all our assets, when the Magic can have assets plus a guy like Vucevic.

Maybe it'll take a year for our players to develop more to solidify as assets.

We will have tons of cap room though and I know the history, but the team could turn around quick just by signing guys if we can convince them to come.

Anyways, I'm happy we have flexibility.  Part of that strategy is being patient though, which isn't always easy.

I think Smart has a lot of untapped potential, but if you listen to what others are saying from around the league, it sounds that they don't believe that the likely ceiling is a star.  That's not to say he will not reach that level, but it would effect his trade value.

Him developing into a "rich man's Tony Allen" seems pretty fair, imo.  RIght now he's a defensive role player.  That might be his destiny.  His offensive game is pretty terrible right now and it's not like we have much of a history of converting terrible offensive players into competent ones.  I want to see him study tapes of Gary Payton, though.  I think he can develop a back-to-basket game.

I thought his offense showed flashes in the playoffs, he was able to get to the hoop a couple times a game and showed off a post game at the end of game 4. He is also only 21 and had a history as a high volume scorer in college.

The C's were trying to bring him along slowly, as evidenced by the fact that he was a good post scorer and college and barely posted up in the pros as well as how he rarely even attempted to get to the bucket.

I'm expecting big things from him next year.

Smart's College numbers aren't very encouraging.  You pointed out that he was a volume scorer.  The fact that he shot like 40% on that level isn't a good thing.  It just shows that he's a crappy shooter with a poor offensive game.  I'm less confident in Smart's ability to develop an offensive game than I was in Ben McLemore last season.  McLemore had a poor rookie campaign, but his shooting percentages in College proved he could develop into a capable shooter on the NBA Level.  He showed a lot of development in his second season.  I don't have that same level of confidence in Smart.  He was bigger than his opponents in College and yet still wasn't a very efficient scorer.  Now that he's playing on this level against superior talent, he can't use his size to the same advantage.  It's going to be tough for him.    Defensively, he's already exceptional.  He's got hustle, heart and attitude.  The intangibles are there.  But I wouldn't bet money on him developing into a superstar.  More likely that he's the top asset in a trade package for a star.  I can't imagine any team giving up a star to Boston without getting Marcus Smart... everyone else on the roster is semi worthless.   As Windhorst points out, there's nobody on this roster who can reasonably develop into a top talent, but at least Smart has some theoretical potential that might make him appealing as a key piece of a large trade package.

Did you type that on your phone? It's unlike you to send a big text block.

Where Marcus Smart impressed me as a scorer in college was with his versatility, scoring off the dribble, in catch and shoot, in the post and off screens. That is why I was encouraged watching him in college.

I wouldn't attribute all his scoring in college to being big, because I saw him scoring on PFs in the post and guards on the wing, to me his biggest college asset was his versatility, which he didn't show in his rookie year, but I expect to see next year. My opinion is Stevens brought him along slowly limiting his versatility and thus his biggest offensive attribute.

I don't fully buy the idea that Stevens brought him along slowly.  Even in the summer league, Smart's offensive game was surprisingly weak.

[kraidstar]

I agree that the Celtics lack talent and overachieved.

I entirely disagree, however, that the Cavs were bored most of the time and played with an "enormous" margin of error.  It seemed like the Cavs hit every big shot when they needed to, got calls from the refs down the stretch (in the first two games, at least), and still weren't blowing the Cetlcis out of the water.  A missed shot by the Cavs here, an open make for the Celtics there, along with even officiating down the stretch, and the Celtics may have pulled out a game or two. 

I also got the sense that the Cavs were playing all-out the entire series; it just never seemed like they were coasting.  I wouldn't call that an "enormous" margin of error.

TP

the idea that the cavs were "bored" is absurd. it's just lazy analysis by people who already didn't expect the c's to do well - therefore when the c's are playing well it's because the cavs are "bored," and when the cavs go on a run it's because they're the best team since the 86 celtics. by their own admission the cavs were terrified in that first game, a game in which the refs helped settle them down with calls that killed the c's momentum. lebron knows the refs have his back - but the rest of the team has good reason to worry. none of them has ever accomplished anything.

if the c's hit a couple more shots (many of which were wide open), they win a game or two. it's a make-miss league.

all these guys are NBA players, and the margins of talent aren't as great as some believe. the big difference is that, on well-balanced teams, the elite players grind out an extra few buckets in crunch time because of their overwhelming offensive ability, and they tend to win close games as a result. though significant, this really only translates to a few extra points per game, and won't help them if they coast the rest of the game due to "boredom" or any other reason.

[Al91]

I applaud Simmons for being extremely passive when talking to a colleague of his like Windy. I value Windy's input but it sounds like he clearly couldn't separate himself from his LeBron fandom when talking about the Olynyk/Love issue.

I can easily switch the subject of Love's post game comments from Olynyk to his own teammate JR and they make so much more sense. Like Simmons, I often just relent when talking to non-Celtics fans because we're all so dead set on our views that it's unlikely that Simmons, a Celtics fan, would be able to change Windy's views on the Love issue.

EDIT: And I don't agree with the comments that the Celtics were devoid of any player on the roster that would find major minutes/a starting role on one of the top nine teams in playoffs as was discussed in the podcast. I'd rather have Bradley than Afflalo (understandably if Matthews was never injured this is moot point) and Crowder than Barnes right about now.

[D.o.s.]

Him developing into a "rich man's Tony Allen" seems pretty fair, imo.

I'd like to point out again that Tony Allen has been the 3rd or 4th best player for significant stretches for one of the better teams in the league ever since joining Memphis.

If Tony Allen could shoot as well as Marcus Smart shot in his rookie season he'd arguably be one of the more valuable wing players in the league.

The challenge for Marcus will be improving as an inside finisher, because that's the area in which TA is far superior to him.

This is a very good post and I agree with it.

[greece66]

Absolutely agree with Windhorst. The Celtics are a long way away with no plan in sight to change this. No big free agents will ever come to Boston. They need to Tank! Tank really hard next year after they screwed this tank up royally this year. 2017 they actually need to make the playoffs to swap the Brooklyn pick but hopefully after next years tank they'll get that star that's needed to compete.

[LarBrd33]

I agree that the Celtics lack talent and overachieved.

I entirely disagree, however, that the Cavs were bored most of the time and played with an "enormous" margin of error.  It seemed like the Cavs hit every big shot when they needed to, got calls from the refs down the stretch (in the first two games, at least), and still weren't blowing the Cetlcis out of the water.  A missed shot by the Cavs here, an open make for the Celtics there, along with even officiating down the stretch, and the Celtics may have pulled out a game or two. 

I also got the sense that the Cavs were playing all-out the entire series; it just never seemed like they were coasting.  I wouldn't call that an "enormous" margin of error.

TP

the idea that the cavs were "bored" is absurd.

Lots of people watched that series and independently came to the same conclusion.  In one of the broadcasts they summed it up appropriately:   "The Cavs are the cat.  Boston is the ball of yarn".   

I fully understand why some of my fellow Celtic fans get upset and defensive when they see comments like that.  They don't like hearing anyone discredit our boys.   But it is what it is, man.  The Cavs were in complete control of that series.  Any time Boston made a little run, the Cavs would up their effort and keep us at arm's length.  There was pretty much always a three possession buffer.   Great that Boston kept three of the games to 8 points, but 8 points against that team might as well been 25.   THe idea that we could have stopped them 4 straight possessions and score 4 straight times while they were giving it their full effort was pretty unlikely. 

The 2nd quarters of all four games were all great examples of this.  They obviously made a concerted effort to finish the half strong:

Game 1:  Tied with 5:48 left.   Cavs finish quarter up 8.
Game 2:  Celtics up 9 with 4:37 left.   Cavs finish quarter up 1.
Game 3:  1 point game with 1:10 left.  Cavs finish quarter up 8.
Game 4:  Cavs up 11 with 3:30 left.  Cavs finish quarter up 21. 


LeBron coasted through much of those games, but he could score on us at will.  There was a point in Game 4 where they pointed out LeBron hadn't gotten to the line for most of the second half.  That's a sign of someone not being aggressive.  Then he promptly coasted in for an easy layup.    We didn't get Cleveland's best effort in that series, because they clearly didn't need to give their best effort.   I didn't see a sense of urgency from the Cavs.  I didn't see any concern.  LeBron looked relaxed.  There were smiles.  The talentless Boston squad worked their tail off, but as Windhorst pointed out, the Cavs still had the capacity to sweep us with C-level performances.