Simmons/Windhorst Podcast

[LarBrd33]

I think making the playoffs has done weird things to people's minds not just in terms of the tank vs no tank debate, but on the actual quality of the team.

All year long, it seemed perfectly reasonable and "part of the plan" that the Cs were in the bottom 10 (or even 5) of the league. Suddenly our boys make an inspired run and grab the 7th seed and they start getting evaluated like the 14th best team. They draw a title contender with a "Big 3" in their prime right now and of course it's not going to go well.

Whoa, slow down with the common sense. How are people supposed to look smarter than others with this narrative?

It seems like sometimes this board becomes less about talking about the celtics, their players, and their games and more about people wanting to prove they were right in some opinion they held or posted in the past. I wish there was some way to cut that down.

You cut it down by being less dismissive of opinions that you don't agree with.  When Celtic fans come here and share unpopular opinions, they are usually met with comments like, "TROLL!  HATER!! IDIOTIC!! ATTENTION-SEEKER!!, OUTLANDISH!!"... When the unpopular opinion is eventually proven right (like in the case of fans who pointed out Rondo's flaws), you can't blame those fans for wanting to point out their opinion wasn't outlandish. 

I've been on both sides of it.   There was a fan earlier this season who posted something like, "Celtics should sign Hassan Whitesite".  I was entirely dismissive of that fan.  Whiteside was just some random d-leaguer.  I think I posted something to the extent of "  " ...  I was one of the first to applaud that fan when he bumped the thread months later.

Your way of writing this is pretty confusing. If this is directed at me I am near positive I pretty much never call people haters or idiotic

Clay, I never said you called anyone a hater/idiotic.  I don't remember you even posting on this forum until a month or two ago.  Or if you did, I just didn't make a mental note of it.  I have trouble remembering people's screennames.   I'm certainly not calling you out.   But you seem to be responding to a lot of my posts lately.   Fwiw, I've been wrong many times before.  I tend to have unpopular opinions.  I get bashed a lot for those opinions.  More often than not, I'm eventually proven right.  I think it's interesting to go back and see how opinions sway over months/years.   Participating in internet fan culture is as much a part of my Celtic fandom as watching the actual games. 

[greece66]

@LarBrd33
Hint: it is not what you say but HOW you say it.

[fairweatherfan]

@LarBrd33
No, the point was that Atlanta went as far as it did because it had a good team not stars.

Atlanta also wouldn't have 4 All-Stars if they weren't on the #1 team in the conference.  Chicken and egg problem there.

[LarBrd33]

@LarBrd33
No, the point was that Atlanta went as far as it did because it had a good team not stars.

Horford is one of the best centers in the league.  A multi-time all-star and one of the best defensive bigs in the game.  Millisap has made back-to-back all-star games.  I disagree with the premise that 2015 Boston is in any way comparable to 2015 Atlanta.   There might not be another team in the entire NBA as devoid of actual NBA talent as this Celtic team.   Even teams like the Bobcats and Jazz have a guy or two who would potentially start for a contender.    I'm not sure we have a guy on this team who even cracked the top 60 players this year.    What team can say the same?   The Lakers without Kobe, I guess?    It's a tribute to Stevens that we were able to win 40 games with this roster.

I'm not suggesting this is reason for panic.  This is a post-demolition roster.  Ainge tore it apart collecting draft picks and cap space likely with the expectation that it would net us a top 5 pick this year.  We overachieved.   There's still a bunch of scenarios where Ainge finds a way to get real talent here this summer.

[celticsclay]

I think making the playoffs has done weird things to people's minds not just in terms of the tank vs no tank debate, but on the actual quality of the team.

All year long, it seemed perfectly reasonable and "part of the plan" that the Cs were in the bottom 10 (or even 5) of the league. Suddenly our boys make an inspired run and grab the 7th seed and they start getting evaluated like the 14th best team. They draw a title contender with a "Big 3" in their prime right now and of course it's not going to go well.

Whoa, slow down with the common sense. How are people supposed to look smarter than others with this narrative?

It seems like sometimes this board becomes less about talking about the celtics, their players, and their games and more about people wanting to prove they were right in some opinion they held or posted in the past. I wish there was some way to cut that down.

You cut it down by being less dismissive of opinions that you don't agree with.  When Celtic fans come here and share unpopular opinions, they are usually met with comments like, "TROLL!  HATER!! IDIOTIC!! ATTENTION-SEEKER!!, OUTLANDISH!!"... When the unpopular opinion is eventually proven right (like in the case of fans who pointed out Rondo's flaws), you can't blame those fans for wanting to point out their opinion wasn't outlandish. 

I've been on both sides of it.   There was a fan earlier this season who posted something like, "Celtics should sign Hassan Whitesite".  I was entirely dismissive of that fan.  Whiteside was just some random d-leaguer.  I think I posted something to the extent of "  " ...  I was one of the first to applaud that fan when he bumped the thread months later.

Your way of writing this is pretty confusing. If this is directed at me I am near positive I pretty much never call people haters or idiotic

Clay, I never said you called anyone a hater/idiotic.  I don't remember you even posting on this forum until a month or two ago.  Or if you did, I just didn't make a mental note of it.  I have trouble remembering people's screennames.   I'm certainly not calling you out.   But you seem to be responding to a lot of my posts lately.   Fwiw, I've been wrong many times before.  I tend to have unpopular opinions.  I get bashed a lot for those opinions.  More often than not, I'm eventually proven right.  I think it's interesting to go back and see how opinions sway over months/years.   Participating in internet fan culture is as much a part of my Celtic fandom as watching the actual games.

Ive been on here since 2006 and was posting back in the old forums before they even had tommy points. Definitely haven't only been around for a few months. I am pretty sure we have had debates throughout the season about Philadelphia and Noel so not sure you would think it was just a month somehow.

Also you do bump your threads and say I told you so more than any other poster on here I can think of off hand.

[greece66]

@LarBrd33
No, the point was that Atlanta went as far as it did because it had a good team not stars.

Horford is one of the best centers in the league.  A multi-time all-star and one of the best defensive bigs in the game.  Millisap has made back-to-back all-star games.  I disagree with the premise that 2015 Boston is in any way comparable to 2015 Atlanta.   There might not be another team in the entire NBA as devoid of actual NBA talent as this Celtic team.   Even teams like the Bobcats and Jazz have a guy or two who would potentially start for a contender.    I'm not sure we have a guy on this team who even cracked the top 60 players this year.    What team can say the same?   The Lakers without Kobe, I guess?    It's a tribute to Stevens that we were able to win 40 games with this roster.

I could get in this argument, but then again,no.

FYI, I'll keep this message for future reference, just in case any player from our current roster makes an All-Star selection in the next 15 years, I will make sure to remind you lol

[LarBrd33]

I think making the playoffs has done weird things to people's minds not just in terms of the tank vs no tank debate, but on the actual quality of the team.

All year long, it seemed perfectly reasonable and "part of the plan" that the Cs were in the bottom 10 (or even 5) of the league. Suddenly our boys make an inspired run and grab the 7th seed and they start getting evaluated like the 14th best team. They draw a title contender with a "Big 3" in their prime right now and of course it's not going to go well.

Whoa, slow down with the common sense. How are people supposed to look smarter than others with this narrative?

It seems like sometimes this board becomes less about talking about the celtics, their players, and their games and more about people wanting to prove they were right in some opinion they held or posted in the past. I wish there was some way to cut that down.

You cut it down by being less dismissive of opinions that you don't agree with.  When Celtic fans come here and share unpopular opinions, they are usually met with comments like, "TROLL!  HATER!! IDIOTIC!! ATTENTION-SEEKER!!, OUTLANDISH!!"... When the unpopular opinion is eventually proven right (like in the case of fans who pointed out Rondo's flaws), you can't blame those fans for wanting to point out their opinion wasn't outlandish. 

I've been on both sides of it.   There was a fan earlier this season who posted something like, "Celtics should sign Hassan Whitesite".  I was entirely dismissive of that fan.  Whiteside was just some random d-leaguer.  I think I posted something to the extent of "  " ...  I was one of the first to applaud that fan when he bumped the thread months later.

Your way of writing this is pretty confusing. If this is directed at me I am near positive I pretty much never call people haters or idiotic

Clay, I never said you called anyone a hater/idiotic.  I don't remember you even posting on this forum until a month or two ago.  Or if you did, I just didn't make a mental note of it.  I have trouble remembering people's screennames.   I'm certainly not calling you out.   But you seem to be responding to a lot of my posts lately.   Fwiw, I've been wrong many times before.  I tend to have unpopular opinions.  I get bashed a lot for those opinions.  More often than not, I'm eventually proven right.  I think it's interesting to go back and see how opinions sway over months/years.   Participating in internet fan culture is as much a part of my Celtic fandom as watching the actual games.

Ive been on here since 2006 and was posting back in the old forums before they even had tommy points. Definitely haven't only been around for a few months.

Yeah, I could see that by clicking on your profile.  I just didn't remember having any discussion with you until the Noel vs Marcus Smart thing.  I see Noel as a vastly more valuable piece... one of the best prospects in the league.  I see Smart as someone who could develop into rich man's Tony Allen.  Looks like I'm not alone in that analysis.   You seem to disagree with it.  We'll see what happens.

Also you do bump your threads and say I told you so more than any other poster on here I can think of off hand.

That's just because I'm right more often than anyone else.

ZIiIiiing!!  Lol.  JK.  It's because I'm bored and obnoxious.

[LarBrd33]

@LarBrd33
No, the point was that Atlanta went as far as it did because it had a good team not stars.

Horford is one of the best centers in the league.  A multi-time all-star and one of the best defensive bigs in the game.  Millisap has made back-to-back all-star games.  I disagree with the premise that 2015 Boston is in any way comparable to 2015 Atlanta.   There might not be another team in the entire NBA as devoid of actual NBA talent as this Celtic team.   Even teams like the Bobcats and Jazz have a guy or two who would potentially start for a contender.    I'm not sure we have a guy on this team who even cracked the top 60 players this year.    What team can say the same?   The Lakers without Kobe, I guess?    It's a tribute to Stevens that we were able to win 40 games with this roster.

I could get in this argument, but then again,no.

FYI, I'll keep this message for future reference, just in case any player from our current roster makes an All-Star selection in the next 15 years, I will make sure to remind you lol

Here's hoping if that happens, they'll still be Celtics.   Whether or not James Young becomes an all-star 8 years from now on the Seattle Supersonics has little bearing on whether or not the comment is accurate.  At present, few teams have less NBA talent than the Celtics. When Windhorst says this team is "EYONS away from being a real NBA team" he's referring to the current lack of talent.   Sure, maybe one of these guys like Smart develops into a player eventually.   That's why Simmons pointed out that Smart could end up developing into a rich man's Tony Allen.

[Rondo9]

@LarBrd33
No, the point was that Atlanta went as far as it did because it had a good team not stars.

There might not be another team in the entire NBA as devoid of actual NBA talent as this Celtic team.

Yet they still made the playoffs, despite supposedly lack of talent.

[mctyson]

If Boston is an eon away, where is Toronto?  Or New Orleans?  Or Dallas?

Mike

Thank you.

[PhoSita]

@LarBrd33
No, the point was that Atlanta went as far as it did because it had a good team not stars.

There might not be another team in the entire NBA as devoid of actual NBA talent as this Celtic team.

Yet they still made the playoffs, despite supposedly lack of talent.

Right, and that's an impressive achievement.  Almost as impressive as Atlanta winning 60 games and getting 4 guys to the All-Star game despite not having a single guy who would show up on most people's list of top 10-15 players in the NBA.

The Celtics essentially won 40 games and made the playoffs with a rotation of 8-10 guys who would come off the bench for your average contending team.  That's extraordinary, and it explains why Brad Stevens is getting so much attention.

Let's not conflate the two, though.  The Celts still are a good distance -- though perhaps not EONS -- away from having the talent the Hawks have in their starting 5.

[greece66]

@LarBrd33 To begin with (and since we are purposefully being pedantic here):
eon (or aeon)= the Greek word for century, a favourite word of the Stoics (to which I apparently belong since I continue this dialogue).
eyon= a vulgar word one uses for someone who behaves well... just like you do know

So, back to your original claim: you said we are the worst in the NBA when it comes to talent.  I would welcome evidence showing that Philly (yes, especially Philly), Orlando, Minny, Utah, Lakers, Hornets,Detroit, New York, Miami and Indy have better rosters than we do.

What was that? Paul George was injured? I see you are ready to use excuses when it comes to other teams.

And once you provide the evidence, then explain to me why we had more wins than the aforementioned teams. 

Stevens is a good coach no doubt, but it takes much more than a genius to defeat 4-0  a team superior to the Celtics in talent (that is Philly). I admire Stevens too, but I would like to know by what device he outmaneuvered Spoelstra, Vogel, Van Gundy and other coaches who in my ignorance I used to consider as legitimate NBA coaches until you opened my eyes.

[Rondo9]

@LarBrd33
No, the point was that Atlanta went as far as it did because it had a good team not stars.

There might not be another team in the entire NBA as devoid of actual NBA talent as this Celtic team.

Yet they still made the playoffs, despite supposedly lack of talent.

Right, and that's an impressive achievement.  Almost as impressive as Atlanta winning 60 games and getting 4 guys to the All-Star game despite not having a single guy who would show up on most people's list of top 10-15 players in the NBA.

The Celtics essentially won 40 games and made the playoffs with a rotation of 8-10 guys who would come off the bench for your average contending team.  That's extraordinary, and it explains why Brad Stevens is getting so much attention.

Let's not conflate the two, though.  The Celts still are a good distance -- though perhaps not EONS -- away from having the talent the Hawks have in their starting 5.

I don't think anyone is contesting that, but I'm just contesting Larbrd's claim that the Celtics are somehow "devoid of talent" despite making the playoffs. Brad Stevens is a important no doubt, but the players maybe more talented then what he's claiming.

[mctyson]

LarBrd33 is notorious for posts touting his "realistic" view on the NBA and the Celtics.  It is not surprising that he would post a podcast by similar-minded people who consistently portray themselves as smarter than the average sports fan because they watch every team and know every player and they know what the TRUTH is. 

I don't need people like LarBrd33 or Bill Simmons or Brian Effin Windhorst to tell me that the Celtics don't have someone on their team like Lebron James or Kyrie Irving, or anyone close to that level.  That is something a 4 year-old can plainly see and tell me.  Thanks. 

So yes, thank you LarBrd33 for posting another great insight that meshes well with your always accurate and realistic view of the Boston Celtics which is always contrary to those of us who are just too crazy and fanatical to see the light.

To the rest of my actual Celtics fans - keep believing.

[indeedproceed]

I really hate Simmons' characterization of Marcus Smart as a 'Rich Man's Tony Allen'. I could get behind it if he means like...a more evolved Tony Allen, but that's not how the phrasing works. The way I take it is that he could basically be Tony Allen, but with a better pedigree.