Do Celtics fans want Rondo traded?

[EJPLAYA]

I'd like to argue against the point that Rondo is actually an elite passer. I think he is a solid passer, however I think many of his assists came not from his being so elite making some brilliant pass, rather giving the ball to PP and KG. If any of us could throw the ball to those two we'd average 8+ assists per game. Both knock down perimeter jumpers. Bass and a few others give him one or two assists a game doing the same for that matter. He isn't consistently coming up with great "thread the needle passes". He is often just swinging the ball.

Before everyone jumps on board, I am not saying the guy isn't a good passer. Just that he isn't in my definition "elite". Steve Nash is elite. John Stockton was elite. Magic was elite. Rondo is just solid. The only thing I think he is elite at is his rebounding. For a point guard there are few that are at his level.

  A couple of weeks ago you were saying that you'd seen almost every minute of every game Rondo's played in and only seen him make a total of 10-15 assists off of lobs in 7 years. Whether you're amazingly biased or unobservant I don't think you're really a good judge of Rondo as a passer.

If Rondo were as good a passer as you are an "instigator" on here he truly would be elite! 

Not getting pulled into it today BBALL Tim. He's not an elite passer. He's good. Very solid. Stop pretending like I said the guy was a terrible passer.

[Fafnir]

Beyond whats the difference between and elite and "very solid" or "very good" I still don't understand where the getting 8 assists is easy (with KG/PP/Ray) thing is coming from.

A very small number of players average that many assists every year, and none of the C's backup PGs or replacements ever averaged nearly that rate of assists per game or per minute even when Rondo was out of the lineup.

Heck Rondo didn't manage it his first year with that core either and not just because of his minutes played, his rate of assists was below that rate too.

[Spicoli]

Yes. I'm not a fan of players who coast in the regular season and try to flip a switch in the playoffs. That makes me feel cheated for sitting through an 82 game season. I'm ready for the Rondo era to come to an end.

[EJPLAYA]

Beyond whats the difference between and elite and "very solid" or "very good" I still don't understand where the getting 8 assists is easy (with KG/PP/Ray) thing is coming from.

A very small number of players average that many assists every year, and none of the C's backup PGs or replacements ever averaged nearly that rate of assists per game or per minute even when Rondo was out of the lineup.

Heck Rondo didn't manage it his first year with that core either and not just because of his minutes played, his rate of assists was below that rate too.

T-Williams basically did while he was in there. 17 minutes a game 2.5 assists per translates basically into 6.5 to 7 per if he played 40 minutes. That came from a SG running the point. I don't buy that if you put MOST legitimate starting PG's in the league out there with Paul and KG that they wouldn't be putting up 8+ assists a game if they played 40 minutes and were the ones running the offense.

The problem with the argument was that we did not HAVE a legitimate PG in the lineup once Rondo was out. Every one of them was a 2 being asked to run the point.

[Fafnir]

Beyond whats the difference between and elite and "very solid" or "very good" I still don't understand where the getting 8 assists is easy (with KG/PP/Ray) thing is coming from.

A very small number of players average that many assists every year, and none of the C's backup PGs or replacements ever averaged nearly that rate of assists per game or per minute even when Rondo was out of the lineup.

Heck Rondo didn't manage it his first year with that core either and not just because of his minutes played, his rate of assists was below that rate too.

T-Williams basically did while he was in there. 17 minutes a game 2.5 assists per translates basically into 6.5 to 7 per if he played 40 minutes. That came from a SG running the point. I don't buy that if you put MOST legitimate starting PG's in the league out there with Paul and KG that they wouldn't be putting up 8+ assists a game if they played 40 minutes and were the ones running the offense.

Terrance Williams averaged 13.3 MPG with 1.6 APG or
4.3 Assists per 36 minutes or 4.8 assists per 40 minutes. I have no idea where you're getting your numbers.

League average for PGs per 40 minutes is 6.1 assists, that's all PGs including low minutes guys.

If you limit it to guys who play rotation minutes (20 MPG) and that goes up to 7 assists per 40.

So I'm not sure what your saying is worthwhile. Because there are roughly 19 guys who averaged the rate of assists you're talking about at PG position. just this past year.

Having PP/KG and company to pass to doesn't have much to do with it if you think there is something meaningful about getting 8 assists per 40.

Of course no one plays 40 minutes per game in the league anymore either. Which is why I like looking at per/36 if you are going per minute stats.

[EJPLAYA]

Beyond whats the difference between and elite and "very solid" or "very good" I still don't understand where the getting 8 assists is easy (with KG/PP/Ray) thing is coming from.

A very small number of players average that many assists every year, and none of the C's backup PGs or replacements ever averaged nearly that rate of assists per game or per minute even when Rondo was out of the lineup.

Heck Rondo didn't manage it his first year with that core either and not just because of his minutes played, his rate of assists was below that rate too.

T-Williams basically did while he was in there. 17 minutes a game 2.5 assists per translates basically into 6.5 to 7 per if he played 40 minutes. That came from a SG running the point. I don't buy that if you put MOST legitimate starting PG's in the league out there with Paul and KG that they wouldn't be putting up 8+ assists a game if they played 40 minutes and were the ones running the offense.

Terrance Williams averaged 13.3 MPG with 1.6 APG or
4.3 Assists per 36 minutes or 4.8 assists per 40 minutes. I have no idea where you're getting your numbers.

League average for PGs per 40 minutes is 6.1 assists, that's all PGs including low minutes guys.

If you limit it to guys who play rotation minutes (20 MPG) and that goes up to 7 assists per 40.

So I'm not sure what your saying is worthwhile. Because there are roughly 19 guys who averaged the rate of assists you're talking about at PG position. just this past year.

Having PP/KG and company to pass to doesn't have much to do with it if you think there is something meaningful about getting 8 assists per 40.

Of course no one plays 40 minutes per game in the league anymore either. Which is why I like looking at per/36 if you are going per minute stats.

I'm using the month of April when he actually started getting consistent games played.  He averaged 2.5 assists in 17 min per for the month when he was getting PG play.

The 8 assists number came from someone else. Take away KG and PP and Rondo will not likely be hitting his 11 assists per game number. (We very well may get to see that this season to prove the theory) Without those guys and their consistent all-star level scoring, Rondo is just one of those other 19 averaging 7-8 assists per game. Solid, but not "elite" like people on here are trying to make him out to be.

All my point was is that his only true "elite" skill was rebounding. He is definitely that. He is a solid passer, decent defender, poor perimeter shooter, solid at the rim, horrible 3 pt shooter, and horrible free throw shooter. Sounds to me like a guy who ought to be traded when you factor in his difficulty in getting along with others and his consistency in being inconsistent with his effort in the season. Not someone I feel is a good person to build with or have around when a 36 yr old coach is trying to put his stamp on the team.

[BballTim]

I'd like to argue against the point that Rondo is actually an elite passer. I think he is a solid passer, however I think many of his assists came not from his being so elite making some brilliant pass, rather giving the ball to PP and KG. If any of us could throw the ball to those two we'd average 8+ assists per game. Both knock down perimeter jumpers. Bass and a few others give him one or two assists a game doing the same for that matter. He isn't consistently coming up with great "thread the needle passes". He is often just swinging the ball.

Before everyone jumps on board, I am not saying the guy isn't a good passer. Just that he isn't in my definition "elite". Steve Nash is elite. John Stockton was elite. Magic was elite. Rondo is just solid. The only thing I think he is elite at is his rebounding. For a point guard there are few that are at his level.

  A couple of weeks ago you were saying that you'd seen almost every minute of every game Rondo's played in and only seen him make a total of 10-15 assists off of lobs in 7 years. Whether you're amazingly biased or unobservant I don't think you're really a good judge of Rondo as a passer.

If Rondo were as good a passer as you are an "instigator" on here he truly would be elite! 

Not getting pulled into it today BBALL Tim. He's not an elite passer. He's good. Very solid. Stop pretending like I said the guy was a terrible passer.

  He's absolutely an elite passer. I'm not saying that you said he was a terrible passer, I'm saying you said he's only had about a dozen or so lobs for assists in his career. That's literally like saying you've seen almost every Celts game since 2008 and you've only seen KG make about thirty 20 foot jumps shots over those 6 years. If I said that would you think I was a good judge of how good of a shooter he was?

[bfrombleacher]

Beyond whats the difference between and elite and "very solid" or "very good" I still don't understand where the getting 8 assists is easy (with KG/PP/Ray) thing is coming from.

A very small number of players average that many assists every year, and none of the C's backup PGs or replacements ever averaged nearly that rate of assists per game or per minute even when Rondo was out of the lineup.

Heck Rondo didn't manage it his first year with that core either and not just because of his minutes played, his rate of assists was below that rate too.

T-Williams basically did while he was in there. 17 minutes a game 2.5 assists per translates basically into 6.5 to 7 per if he played 40 minutes. That came from a SG running the point. I don't buy that if you put MOST legitimate starting PG's in the league out there with Paul and KG that they wouldn't be putting up 8+ assists a game if they played 40 minutes and were the ones running the offense.

Terrance Williams averaged 13.3 MPG with 1.6 APG or
4.3 Assists per 36 minutes or 4.8 assists per 40 minutes. I have no idea where you're getting your numbers.

League average for PGs per 40 minutes is 6.1 assists, that's all PGs including low minutes guys.

If you limit it to guys who play rotation minutes (20 MPG) and that goes up to 7 assists per 40.

So I'm not sure what your saying is worthwhile. Because there are roughly 19 guys who averaged the rate of assists you're talking about at PG position. just this past year.

Having PP/KG and company to pass to doesn't have much to do with it if you think there is something meaningful about getting 8 assists per 40.

Of course no one plays 40 minutes per game in the league anymore either. Which is why I like looking at per/36 if you are going per minute stats.

I'm using the month of April when he actually started getting consistent games played.  He averaged 2.5 assists in 17 min per for the month when he was getting PG play.

The 8 assists number came from someone else. Take away KG and PP and Rondo will not likely be hitting his 11 assists per game number. (We very well may get to see that this season to prove the theory) Without those guys and their consistent all-star level scoring, Rondo is just one of those other 19 averaging 7-8 assists per game. Solid, but not "elite" like people on here are trying to make him out to be.

All my point was is that his only true "elite" skill was rebounding. He is definitely that. He is a solid passer, decent defender, poor perimeter shooter, solid at the rim, horrible 3 pt shooter, and horrible free throw shooter. Sounds to me like a guy who ought to be traded when you factor in his difficulty in getting along with others and his consistency in being inconsistent with his effort in the season. Not someone I feel is a good person to build with or have around when a 36 yr old coach is trying to put his stamp on the team.

I'm speechless.

[EJPLAYA]

I'd like to argue against the point that Rondo is actually an elite passer. I think he is a solid passer, however I think many of his assists came not from his being so elite making some brilliant pass, rather giving the ball to PP and KG. If any of us could throw the ball to those two we'd average 8+ assists per game. Both knock down perimeter jumpers. Bass and a few others give him one or two assists a game doing the same for that matter. He isn't consistently coming up with great "thread the needle passes". He is often just swinging the ball.

Before everyone jumps on board, I am not saying the guy isn't a good passer. Just that he isn't in my definition "elite". Steve Nash is elite. John Stockton was elite. Magic was elite. Rondo is just solid. The only thing I think he is elite at is his rebounding. For a point guard there are few that are at his level.

  A couple of weeks ago you were saying that you'd seen almost every minute of every game Rondo's played in and only seen him make a total of 10-15 assists off of lobs in 7 years. Whether you're amazingly biased or unobservant I don't think you're really a good judge of Rondo as a passer.

If Rondo were as good a passer as you are an "instigator" on here he truly would be elite! 

Not getting pulled into it today BBALL Tim. He's not an elite passer. He's good. Very solid. Stop pretending like I said the guy was a terrible passer.

  He's absolutely an elite passer. I'm not saying that you said he was a terrible passer, I'm saying you said he's only had about a dozen or so lobs for assists in his career. That's literally like saying you've seen almost every Celts game since 2008 and you've only seen KG make about thirty 20 foot jumps shots over those 6 years. If I said that would you think I was a good judge of how good of a shooter he was?

You say he is elite, I say he is not. Blah Blah Blah. Argue all you want, I don't think he is elite. You don't have to agree. It would be nice if your argument was something other than "back then in another thread you said... therefore you must not know what you are talking about." Kind of insinuates you have no real thought out argument as to why he is elite, but are just trying to argue which is your MO. I made some points as to why I felt that way. You made no contrary points, just attacked my judgement. Not really much of an argument...

If you are including Rajon Rondo in your mind with elite passers in the games history like John Stockton, Magic Johson, Steve Nash, Oscar Robertson, Maurice Cheeks, Bob Cousy, etc. all you do is drag their legacies down. Those guys were elite passers. Rondo isn't in their league.

[Sketch5]

I'd like to argue against the point that Rondo is actually an elite passer. I think he is a solid passer, however I think many of his assists came not from his being so elite making some brilliant pass, rather giving the ball to PP and KG. If any of us could throw the ball to those two we'd average 8+ assists per game. Both knock down perimeter jumpers. Bass and a few others give him one or two assists a game doing the same for that matter. He isn't consistently coming up with great "thread the needle passes". He is often just swinging the ball.

Before everyone jumps on board, I am not saying the guy isn't a good passer. Just that he isn't in my definition "elite". Steve Nash is elite. John Stockton was elite. Magic was elite. Rondo is just solid. The only thing I think he is elite at is his rebounding. For a point guard there are few that are at his level.

  A couple of weeks ago you were saying that you'd seen almost every minute of every game Rondo's played in and only seen him make a total of 10-15 assists off of lobs in 7 years. Whether you're amazingly biased or unobservant I don't think you're really a good judge of Rondo as a passer.

If Rondo were as good a passer as you are an "instigator" on here he truly would be elite! 

Not getting pulled into it today BBALL Tim. He's not an elite passer. He's good. Very solid. Stop pretending like I said the guy was a terrible passer.

  He's absolutely an elite passer. I'm not saying that you said he was a terrible passer, I'm saying you said he's only had about a dozen or so lobs for assists in his career. That's literally like saying you've seen almost every Celts game since 2008 and you've only seen KG make about thirty 20 foot jumps shots over those 6 years. If I said that would you think I was a good judge of how good of a shooter he was?

Im going to have to jump in on this and say that Rondo is a elite passer in the wrong system.

Docs system running a stand still play made for unexciting passes. But that being said every body has said Rondo puts it on the mark 90% of the time. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but if your coming off a screen like Allen did, you need that ball right on target to get up into your shot quickly.

He also passes better with his off hand them most people do with their on hand.

To say he's only had 10-15 lobbs is completely not accurate. I think Shaq had at least that the first month of the season when he was hear. KG and Rondo hooked up a bunch the first couple years. He hit Wilcox on a ton of them on the fast breaks.

And if you consider lobbs  an elite pass, well its not. Elite pass's are those threading the needle type pass's. The bounce pass to the cutter that just sits up for the player to catch and go up with it.

Check out some of the Rondo hi-light passing videos. Those are the ones were people are moving and he's hitting them with great pass's. The behind the back to Allen against GSW is still one of the best I've seen.

[celticbos]

I think it is way too early to even think about trading Rondo. He needs to be given a chance at this team and the Celtics Brass needs time to evaluate what they have, what they can get, and what is available out there.

[rondoallaturca]

Im going to have to jump in on this and say that Rondo is a elite passer in the wrong system.

Docs system running a stand still play made for unexciting passes. But that being said every body has said Rondo puts it on the mark 90% of the time. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but if your coming off a screen like Allen did, you need that ball right on target to get up into your shot quickly.

He also passes better with his off hand them most people do with their on hand.

To say he's only had 10-15 lobbs is completely not accurate. I think Shaq had at least that the first month of the season when he was hear. KG and Rondo hooked up a bunch the first couple years. He hit Wilcox on a ton of them on the fast breaks.

And if you consider lobbs  an elite pass, well its not. Elite pass's are those threading the needle type pass's. The bounce pass to the cutter that just sits up for the player to catch and go up with it.

Check out some of the Rondo hi-light passing videos. Those are the ones were people are moving and he's hitting them with great pass's. The behind the back to Allen against GSW is still one of the best I've seen.

TP for the perfect post. Pointed out Doc's system's impact on Rondo's passing, stressing that lob passes don't determine elite passing ability, and reflecting on great passes like the behind-the-back to Allen. Rondo is absolutely one of the best passers in the league.

[BballTim]

I'd like to argue against the point that Rondo is actually an elite passer. I think he is a solid passer, however I think many of his assists came not from his being so elite making some brilliant pass, rather giving the ball to PP and KG. If any of us could throw the ball to those two we'd average 8+ assists per game. Both knock down perimeter jumpers. Bass and a few others give him one or two assists a game doing the same for that matter. He isn't consistently coming up with great "thread the needle passes". He is often just swinging the ball.

Before everyone jumps on board, I am not saying the guy isn't a good passer. Just that he isn't in my definition "elite". Steve Nash is elite. John Stockton was elite. Magic was elite. Rondo is just solid. The only thing I think he is elite at is his rebounding. For a point guard there are few that are at his level.

  A couple of weeks ago you were saying that you'd seen almost every minute of every game Rondo's played in and only seen him make a total of 10-15 assists off of lobs in 7 years. Whether you're amazingly biased or unobservant I don't think you're really a good judge of Rondo as a passer.

If Rondo were as good a passer as you are an "instigator" on here he truly would be elite! 

Not getting pulled into it today BBALL Tim. He's not an elite passer. He's good. Very solid. Stop pretending like I said the guy was a terrible passer.

  He's absolutely an elite passer. I'm not saying that you said he was a terrible passer, I'm saying you said he's only had about a dozen or so lobs for assists in his career. That's literally like saying you've seen almost every Celts game since 2008 and you've only seen KG make about thirty 20 foot jumps shots over those 6 years. If I said that would you think I was a good judge of how good of a shooter he was?

You say he is elite, I say he is not. Blah Blah Blah. Argue all you want, I don't think he is elite. You don't have to agree. It would be nice if your argument was something other than "back then in another thread you said... therefore you must not know what you are talking about." Kind of insinuates you have no real thought out argument as to why he is elite, but are just trying to argue which is your MO. I made some points as to why I felt that way. You made no contrary points, just attacked my judgement. Not really much of an argument...

  In this case it's a reasonably good argument. Your only argument against his being an elite passer is that he had a couple of good scorers to pass the ball to. One would imagine that you don't think that any of the elite passers in your list ever played with good offensive players. This isn't the case.

  If you look strictly at the numbers though, it's easy to make a case that he's elite. He's averaged 11 assists a game 3 straight years, the only other players in nba history to average 11 or more assists 3+ times in their first 7 seasons were Magic, Stockton and Oscar. The only other player in league history to average 3+ assists 3 times by the age Rondo was last year was Magic. He's also clearly been the dominant passer in the postseason for the last 4-5 years.

If you are including Rajon Rondo in your mind with elite passers in the games history like John Stockton, Magic Johson, Steve Nash, Oscar Robertson, Maurice Cheeks, Bob Cousy, etc. all you do is drag their legacies down. Those guys were elite passers. Rondo isn't in their league.

  Of course he is. And if anyone is dragging down legacies by being listed among elite passers it's Mo Cheeks. He was a great defender, very good floor general and smart player but he was never really known as an elite passer, and for good reason.

[BballTim]

no. nope. no way Jose.

Rondo's the main asset we have and the type of player we'd want to acquire while rebuilding.

Just because he is our best asset doesn't mean we are required to keep him. We didn't get back fair value for Pierce/KG either. We took two steps back to make a giant leap forward (eventually).

CP3 has never been to a finals. Nash hasn't either. Kidd never led his team to a championship. Neither has Payton nor Stockton nor Kevin Johnson.

Unless you are talking about 6'10" Magic Johnson, you don't build around a PG.

Contrary to what some believe on here, Rondo was always a complimentary piece throughout our championship window.

Your point is? Nothing you've said here means we need to trade Rondo. If anything, he'll be a solid third option on a championship contender.

He couldn't help a team with two HoF'ers win another championship (he had little to do with the '08 Banner), but he can LEAD a team to one? So long as we have him, we probably won't bring in a better player.

  I would suggest you try and watch some Celts games from the last few years (starting with the Knicks series) if you think that PP and KG still play at a HOF level. You'll be very surprised by what you'll see.

You certainly haven't watched more games than me, I've seen all but one game of Rondo's career (missed April '08 game against the Hawks - forgot to set DVR). Sorry I didn't become a Rondo troll over that timespan though.

Pierce averaged like 18/7/6 after rondo went down. Those are HoF numbers. KG led the league in rebounding in the playoffs at 37 years old. Last year he had the best adjusted +/-.

These guys may not be the best at their positions anymore, but they are still [dang] good, and you will see soon enough when Brooklyn takes the court in October. Deron will probably extend their careers another year or two, as he can actually take the scoring burden off has-beens like themselves.

  Funny, you claim they play like HOF-level players and call them has-beens in the same post. You're catching on. There's no way anyone can look at the play we got from KG and PP this year (or the last few) and realistically say they're playing like HOFers in their primes. Go back and watch some of the 2008 season. The difference in those two from 2008 to the last couple of years is significant.

Rondo has long benefitted from playing with the big three. Now that they are all gone, teams can just give him fits, double him, foul him, do whatever. Worst that can happen is he bricks half his free throws or passes out to.... Avery Bradley?... Brandon Bass?.... Kelly Olynyk? Rondo is going to be one frustrated played before November is over. I cannot say the same about Deron, JJ, or Brook Lopez.

  Maybe Rondo will pass it to them, maybe he'll pass it to Green. But with a weaker team he'll probably control the offense more than before, not less. Without passers like KG and PP with him the guys who get his passes will be more likely to shoot. There's no real reason to expect a big decline in his assists. The rest of the offense has been deteriorating around him over the last 3 years and there's been no drop in his assists.

  Teams double him and he'll carve them up, just like he normally does. Teams foul him and he'll probably his 60 something percent of his shots. While that doesn't sound too exciting to you that's more efficient scoring than any team in the league is capable of.