The Celtic-Clipper trade talk (merged) - Clippers back out.

[Fafnir]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--sources--kevin-garnett--doc-rivers-trade-may-come-down-to-clippers-surrendering-two-first-round-draft-picks-to-celtics-030159443.html

So now according to Woj Danny has backed off of his demand they take Terry or Lee and instead is pushing for 2 firsts in addition to Jordan.

NO. Just no. That is a terrible return. People were talking about getting at least 1 first for Doc alone, so the rest of the deal would be DJ and a first for KG? Thats highway robbery.

The salary cap flexibility we could get by moving one or two of Terry/Lee/Bass would be far more useful for us as a club going down the line than a late first rounder in the 20-30 range.

I'd rather have the first-round pick than dumping Terry or Lee.  I want there to be some second-round picks thrown in, as well.  Jordan, two firsts, and two seconds sounds reasonable to me for what has a good chance of being a one-year rental.

I prefer an extra first rounder to dumping Terry/Lee as well.

Especially if its a few years in the future. You never know where teams end up, it could end up being more valuable than you thought.

[connor]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--sources--kevin-garnett--doc-rivers-trade-may-come-down-to-clippers-surrendering-two-first-round-draft-picks-to-celtics-030159443.html

So now according to Woj Danny has backed off of his demand they take Terry or Lee and instead is pushing for 2 firsts in addition to Jordan.

NO. Just no. That is a terrible return. People were talking about getting at least 1 first for Doc alone, so the rest of the deal would be DJ and a first for KG? Thats highway robbery.

The salary cap flexibility we could get by moving one or two of Terry/Lee/Bass would be far more useful for us as a club going down the line than a late first rounder in the 20-30 range.

I'd rather have the first-round pick than dumping Terry or Lee.  I want there to be some second-round picks thrown in, as well.  Jordan, two firsts, and two seconds sounds reasonable to me for what has a good chance of being a one-year rental.

I prefer an extra first rounder to dumping Terry/Lee as well.

The picks are nice, but realistically unless we get pretty lucky with either the Clippers sucking (not likely if the get Paul back since after KG goes they can sign another big name) or we manage to find a steal at the back end (they exist, but its hit or miss), then we are better off moving some of our worse contracts so that we can bring in younger talent that fits better with our rebuild.

Now if Danny is confident he can move Bass/Terry/Lee on their own for expiring deals (nothing else, just to get them off the books) then fine take the picks. But barring that the flexibility is more valuable to us.

Rebuilding is about collecting assets and having flexibility. The late first are nice, but not exactly the assets that we are going to be able to use as leverage in a future deal (they are more like trade kickers).

[JSD]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--sources--kevin-garnett--doc-rivers-trade-may-come-down-to-clippers-surrendering-two-first-round-draft-picks-to-celtics-030159443.html

So now according to Woj Danny has backed off of his demand they take Terry or Lee and instead is pushing for 2 firsts in addition to Jordan.

NO. Just no. That is a terrible return. People were talking about getting at least 1 first for Doc alone, so the rest of the deal would be DJ and a first for KG? Thats highway robbery.

The salary cap flexibility we could get by moving one or two of Terry/Lee/Bass would be far more useful for us as a club going down the line than a late first rounder in the 20-30 range.

I'd rather have the first-round pick than dumping Terry or Lee.  I want there to be some second-round picks thrown in, as well.  Jordan, two firsts, and two seconds sounds reasonable to me for what has a good chance of being a one-year rental.

I prefer an extra first rounder to dumping Terry/Lee as well.

The picks are nice, but realistically unless we get pretty lucky with either the Clippers sucking (not likely if the get Paul back since after KG goes they can sign another big name) or we manage to find a steal at the back end (they exist, but its hit or miss), then we are better off moving some of our worse contracts so that we can bring in younger talent that fits better with our rebuild.

Now if Danny is confident he can move Bass/Terry/Lee on their own for expiring deals (nothing else, just to get them off the books) then fine take the picks. But barring that the flexibility is more valuable to us.

Rebuilding is about collecting assets and having flexibility. The late first are nice, but not exactly the assets that we are going to be able to use as leverage in a future deal (they are more like trade kickers).

Yes, this is my take on it as well.

[CelticG1]

Can someone tell me why it feels like Doc has so much leverage?

I mean couldn't we just walk away and say to KG do u still wanna be here? If yes than that's fine if he's open tonother places than great.

Then we have Doc who we still have the rigts too. La won't wnt him anymore (aww sorry doc) and he can either come back or go to broadcasting or we can do whatever we want to do.

Why are we rushing into such a bad deal? I truly think this is a deal to help out KG and Doc and doesn't help us at all. Its like we are doing them this huge favor. If we were getting a sweet package than maybe id think Doc and KG were helping us a little but the package proposed at this point is a slap in the face. Why even throw doc in the mix? We really couldn't trade just KG for deAndre and a pick not that I'd want to anyway

[chambers]

Here is the problem with making the trade just to make sure you "get something" 



You can't just let what you get go later.  You have to "get something" for that as well. 



And in the NBA, that leads to a downward spiral of actual talent with out a corresponding downward spiral of actual money being spent.

That's why trades are made though. Because you're hopefully making an investment that pays off.Keeping KG while we can't win a championship basically results in an end game of no championship and no assets.
Moving him while he's got a flash of trade value (and we aren't intending to compete anyway) means that have pieces to build our future with.

How do you think we got KG in the first place?
We acquired picks and assets and built up an egg basket that ultimately lead to guys like Jefferson, Green, Delonte which in turn turned into KG and Ray Allen.

Heck the 21st pick which we bought from the Suns got us Rondo.
The two picks we get from the Clippers could turn into a top 15 pick. If we traded Rondo, our own top 10 pick from tanking and a top 15 pick from these two Clippers picks we could trade for a number 1 pick or a top 3 pick.

The point is you need these assets to put yourself in a position to make moves down the road. KG rotting on our sidelines doesn't do anything for our future or put us any closer to a banner.

[LooseCannon]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--sources--kevin-garnett--doc-rivers-trade-may-come-down-to-clippers-surrendering-two-first-round-draft-picks-to-celtics-030159443.html

So now according to Woj Danny has backed off of his demand they take Terry or Lee and instead is pushing for 2 firsts in addition to Jordan.

NO. Just no. That is a terrible return. People were talking about getting at least 1 first for Doc alone, so the rest of the deal would be DJ and a first for KG? Thats highway robbery.

The salary cap flexibility we could get by moving one or two of Terry/Lee/Bass would be far more useful for us as a club going down the line than a late first rounder in the 20-30 range.

I'd rather have the first-round pick than dumping Terry or Lee.  I want there to be some second-round picks thrown in, as well.  Jordan, two firsts, and two seconds sounds reasonable to me for what has a good chance of being a one-year rental.

I prefer an extra first rounder to dumping Terry/Lee as well.

The picks are nice, but realistically unless we get pretty lucky with either the Clippers sucking (not likely if the get Paul back since after KG goes they can sign another big name) or we manage to find a steal at the back end (they exist, but its hit or miss), then we are better off moving some of our worse contracts so that we can bring in younger talent that fits better with our rebuild.

Now if Danny is confident he can move Bass/Terry/Lee on their own for expiring deals (nothing else, just to get them off the books) then fine take the picks. But barring that the flexibility is more valuable to us.

Rebuilding is about collecting assets and having flexibility. The late first are nice, but not exactly the assets that we are going to be able to use as leverage in a future deal (they are more like trade kickers).

Do you know the best way to bring in younger talent?  Draft them.  I think some people seriously undervalue late first-round picks.

Given a choice between Jordan, Bledsoe, and no draft picks or Jordan and two firsts, I would find the picks to be the more attractive package, although I would want some second round picks as well.

[kozlodoev]

Can someone tell me why it feels like Doc has so much leverage?

Because people keep assuming that this deal is being made because of Doc.

[Jon]

Here is the problem with making the trade just to make sure you "get something" 



You can't just let what you get go later.  You have to "get something" for that as well. 



And in the NBA, that leads to a downward spiral of actual talent with out a corresponding downward spiral of actual money being spent.

That's why trades are made though. Because you're hopefully making an investment that pays off.Keeping KG while we can't win a championship basically results in an end game of no championship and no assets.
Moving him while he's got a flash of trade value (and we aren't intending to compete anyway) means that have pieces to build our future with.

How do you think we got KG in the first place?
We acquired picks and assets and built up an egg basket that ultimately lead to guys like Jefferson, Green, Delonte which in turn turned into KG and Ray Allen.

Heck the 21st pick which we bought from the Suns got us Rondo.
The two picks we get from the Clippers could turn into a top 15 pick. If we traded Rondo, our own top 10 pick from tanking and a top 15 pick from these two Clippers picks we could trade for a number 1 pick or a top 3 pick.

The point is you need these assets to put yourself in a position to make moves down the road. KG rotting on our sidelines doesn't do anything for our future or put us any closer to a banner.

But I think the question is also whether they'd be better playing out this season with Pierce, letting KG potentially walk, and then clearing the 25 million+ off the books at the end of the season.  Now that is contingent on KG not playing out his deal, but if he does, that cap flexibility in the summer of 2014 could potentially be more valuable than Jordan, depending on how you view Jordan. 

Again, I think that Danny can get a "something" that is better than a "nothing," but this idea something is always better than nothing in the NBA is just patently untrue despite being true in other sports. 

[TripleOT]

There have been some good players picked in the bottom third of the draft the past few seasons - Faried, Vasquez, Collison, Gibson, Ibaka, Batum, Hill, Anderson, Lee. 

If the Cs can get two firsts out of the Clips for a coach they're not too keen on paying $7m x 3 to babysit a rebuild, and a player that's going to retire anyways, they've got to do it. 

Grab their pick in this draft and take high upside gunner Ricky Ledo at 25 (or Rice/Hardaway Jr or Bullock), and hope he develops into a big time scorer. 

[DavorCroatiaFan]

I don't understand one thing.
Why people are so sure that Clippers 2014.pick would be #25-30?
As i see it, KG is one injury away from retirement. I don't see Griffin improving and CP3 could be injury prone.
Its a Clippers, people. They would find a way to mess things up, like when trading first round pick for Mo Williams and that pick become Kyrie Irving.
CP3 and Griffin would sooner or later clash with KG and PP, and Doc will be stuck in the middle. So for me its important that there is no protection for picks cause i can see that Clippers pick with a litte luck and little Clippers unluck could be a lottery pick

[wdleehi]

I don't understand one thing.
Why people are so sure that Clippers 2014.pick would be #25-30?
As i see it, KG is one injury away from retirement. I don't see Griffin improving and CP3 could be injury prone.
Its a Clippers, people. They would find a way to mess things up, like when trading first round pick for Mo Williams and that pick become Kyrie Irving.
CP3 and Griffin would sooner or later clash with KG and PP, and Doc will be stuck in the middle. So for me its important that there is no protection for picks cause i can see that Clippers pick with a litte luck and little Clippers unluck could be a lottery pick

Two straight season of winning more then 60% of their regular season games and adding a better coach and KG.

[Fafnir]

Here is the problem with making the trade just to make sure you "get something" 



You can't just let what you get go later.  You have to "get something" for that as well. 



And in the NBA, that leads to a downward spiral of actual talent with out a corresponding downward spiral of actual money being spent.

That's why trades are made though. Because you're hopefully making an investment that pays off.Keeping KG while we can't win a championship basically results in an end game of no championship and no assets.
Moving him while he's got a flash of trade value (and we aren't intending to compete anyway) means that have pieces to build our future with.

How do you think we got KG in the first place?
We acquired picks and assets and built up an egg basket that ultimately lead to guys like Jefferson, Green, Delonte which in turn turned into KG and Ray Allen.

Heck the 21st pick which we bought from the Suns got us Rondo.
The two picks we get from the Clippers could turn into a top 15 pick. If we traded Rondo, our own top 10 pick from tanking and a top 15 pick from these two Clippers picks we could trade for a number 1 pick or a top 3 pick.

The point is you need these assets to put yourself in a position to make moves down the road. KG rotting on our sidelines doesn't do anything for our future or put us any closer to a banner.

But I think the question is also whether they'd be better playing out this season with Pierce, letting KG potentially walk, and then clearing the 25 million+ off the books at the end of the season.  Now that is contingent on KG not playing out his deal, but if he does, that cap flexibility in the summer of 2014 could potentially be more valuable than Jordan, depending on how you view Jordan. 

Again, I think that Danny can get a "something" that is better than a "nothing," but this idea something is always better than nothing in the NBA is just patently untrue despite being true in other sports.

with no KG/Pierce 2014/2015 still has 42 million in salary already committed. (if we pick up Sully/Melo's options)

Add in another contract for Bradley (even a modest one), our draft pick this year, and the draft pick for 2014/2015 and we don't have much space at all.

[Evantime34]

Here is the problem with making the trade just to make sure you "get something" 



You can't just let what you get go later.  You have to "get something" for that as well. 



And in the NBA, that leads to a downward spiral of actual talent with out a corresponding downward spiral of actual money being spent.

That's why trades are made though. Because you're hopefully making an investment that pays off.Keeping KG while we can't win a championship basically results in an end game of no championship and no assets.
Moving him while he's got a flash of trade value (and we aren't intending to compete anyway) means that have pieces to build our future with.

How do you think we got KG in the first place?
We acquired picks and assets and built up an egg basket that ultimately lead to guys like Jefferson, Green, Delonte which in turn turned into KG and Ray Allen.

Heck the 21st pick which we bought from the Suns got us Rondo.
The two picks we get from the Clippers could turn into a top 15 pick. If we traded Rondo, our own top 10 pick from tanking and a top 15 pick from these two Clippers picks we could trade for a number 1 pick or a top 3 pick.

The point is you need these assets to put yourself in a position to make moves down the road. KG rotting on our sidelines doesn't do anything for our future or put us any closer to a banner.

But I think the question is also whether they'd be better playing out this season with Pierce, letting KG potentially walk, and then clearing the 25 million+ off the books at the end of the season.  Now that is contingent on KG not playing out his deal, but if he does, that cap flexibility in the summer of 2014 could potentially be more valuable than Jordan, depending on how you view Jordan. 

Again, I think that Danny can get a "something" that is better than a "nothing," but this idea something is always better than nothing in the NBA is just patently untrue despite being true in other sports.

with no KG/Pierce 2014/2015 still has 42 million in salary already committed. (if we pick up Sully/Melo's options)

Add in another contract for Bradley (even a modest one), our draft pick this year, and the draft pick for 2014/2015 and we don't have much space at all.

Is this assuming we move Bass, Terry and/or Lee. I think we move all/at least two of them in cost cutting moves.

With the picks I don't expect them to be worth much for the next few years. Hopefully somewhere in there they get the unprotected rights to something in 2017.

[Fafnir]

Here is the problem with making the trade just to make sure you "get something" 



You can't just let what you get go later.  You have to "get something" for that as well. 



And in the NBA, that leads to a downward spiral of actual talent with out a corresponding downward spiral of actual money being spent.

That's why trades are made though. Because you're hopefully making an investment that pays off.Keeping KG while we can't win a championship basically results in an end game of no championship and no assets.
Moving him while he's got a flash of trade value (and we aren't intending to compete anyway) means that have pieces to build our future with.

How do you think we got KG in the first place?
We acquired picks and assets and built up an egg basket that ultimately lead to guys like Jefferson, Green, Delonte which in turn turned into KG and Ray Allen.

Heck the 21st pick which we bought from the Suns got us Rondo.
The two picks we get from the Clippers could turn into a top 15 pick. If we traded Rondo, our own top 10 pick from tanking and a top 15 pick from these two Clippers picks we could trade for a number 1 pick or a top 3 pick.

The point is you need these assets to put yourself in a position to make moves down the road. KG rotting on our sidelines doesn't do anything for our future or put us any closer to a banner.

But I think the question is also whether they'd be better playing out this season with Pierce, letting KG potentially walk, and then clearing the 25 million+ off the books at the end of the season.  Now that is contingent on KG not playing out his deal, but if he does, that cap flexibility in the summer of 2014 could potentially be more valuable than Jordan, depending on how you view Jordan. 

Again, I think that Danny can get a "something" that is better than a "nothing," but this idea something is always better than nothing in the NBA is just patently untrue despite being true in other sports.

with no KG/Pierce 2014/2015 still has 42 million in salary already committed. (if we pick up Sully/Melo's options)

Add in another contract for Bradley (even a modest one), our draft pick this year, and the draft pick for 2014/2015 and we don't have much space at all.

Is this assuming we move Bass, Terry and/or Lee. I think we move all/at least two of them in cost cutting moves.

With the picks I don't expect them to be worth much for the next few years. Hopefully somewhere in there they get the unprotected rights to something in 2017.

No I'm assuming we can't move them in this.

We could move Lee probably without taking back salary just as bad or sweetening it. Apparently Memphis wanted him at the deadline with their TE.

[nebist]

Yeah, my biggest problem with this trade is that I think Deandre Jordan's contract and limitations gives him negative trade value.