Author Topic: 2013 NFL Football  (Read 83558 times)

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Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #150 on: May 02, 2013, 11:04:49 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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Right, but all things on the field being equal you'd sign Tebow over Vick or Cutler for the jersey sales and PR, right?

The fact that people who get paid to evaluate football talent seem to have reached a conclusion on his ability is telling. At least to me.
The same people that picked JaMarcus Russell #1 and Ryan Leaf #2 and didn't like Flutie?  And passed over Tom Brady? Yup. Same people

I'm not sure I can ignore the fact that you're talking about practice the draft, which is speculation based on performance at the college level and predicting translatable skills, when I'm talking about evaluating the proven talents (or lack thereof) of a player who has played professionally for a season and a half.

The proof is in the pudding. Tebow, thus far, seems to fall fairly well into the mold of Christian Laettner--great in college, no big deal in the pros.
He's a winning QB in the pros. Not only is he a winning QB but he can take over a losing team and take it to the playoffs.  It would be like if Laettner had gone to the Wolves...they were losing...they finally let him play. He plays well and hits a bunch of buzzer beaters, has a very good first round....then people say "i don't know. He can't hit the three or free throws and once they started defending him a little tighter he lost. He probably shouldn't be in the league".   Hey I guess he's a lost cause then

Except what if instead, for this analogy to actually be accurate, his teammates hit a bunch of buzzer beaters after he missed most of his shots in comical and laughable fashion.
Well is he the point guard and they were always missing before he started passing to them? Did they then get Chris Paul and did no better?

Your claim that they did no better with Peyton than with Tebow is inaccurate at best.  The Broncos were much better.

Even if wins and losses is your only measure, 13-3 is better than 7-4.
Where are the post season results to show for it? Not to mention Tebow was a first year starter. Peyton is a HOFer.  But Tebow's first year of starting was far more successful by any measure than Peyton's

I find it funny that you've praised Flutie in this thread and also often express the opinion that only playoff results really matter.

Flutie's playoff record is 0-2 and his playoff stats are putrid.  I'd be willing to guess that you didn't even know you were contradicting yourself.

Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions in overtime.  Tebow was embarassed in one of the worst playoff showings in a long time.  That's how their playoff runs finished, by the way.
Right. The Hall of Famer lost at home and the rookie lost on the road. Right. And his loss wasn't as bad as most of Peyton's playoff trips to Foxboro

Peyton earned home field with a 13-3 record.  Right.

And Tebow's loss wasn't as bad as Peyton's trips to Foxboro, it was worse.

Have you given up on praising Flutie's 0-2 playoff record?

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #151 on: May 02, 2013, 11:05:56 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Right, but all things on the field being equal you'd sign Tebow over Vick or Cutler for the jersey sales and PR, right?

The fact that people who get paid to evaluate football talent seem to have reached a conclusion on his ability is telling. At least to me.
The same people that picked JaMarcus Russell #1 and Ryan Leaf #2 and didn't like Flutie?  And passed over Tom Brady? Yup. Same people

I'm not sure I can ignore the fact that you're talking about practice the draft, which is speculation based on performance at the college level and predicting translatable skills, when I'm talking about evaluating the proven talents (or lack thereof) of a player who has played professionally for a season and a half.

The proof is in the pudding. Tebow, thus far, seems to fall fairly well into the mold of Christian Laettner--great in college, no big deal in the pros.
He's a winning QB in the pros. Not only is he a winning QB but he can take over a losing team and take it to the playoffs.  It would be like if Laettner had gone to the Wolves...they were losing...they finally let him play. He plays well and hits a bunch of buzzer beaters, has a very good first round....then people say "i don't know. He can't hit the three or free throws and once they started defending him a little tighter he lost. He probably shouldn't be in the league".   Hey I guess he's a lost cause then

Except what if instead, for this analogy to actually be accurate, his teammates hit a bunch of buzzer beaters after he missed most of his shots in comical and laughable fashion.
Well is he the point guard and they were always missing before he started passing to them? Did they then get Chris Paul and did no better?

Your claim that they did no better with Peyton than with Tebow is inaccurate at best.  The Broncos were much better.

Even if wins and losses is your only measure, 13-3 is better than 7-4.
Where are the post season results to show for it? Not to mention Tebow was a first year starter. Peyton is a HOFer.  But Tebow's first year of starting was far more successful by any measure than Peyton's

I find it funny that you've praised Flutie in this thread and also often express the opinion that only playoff results really matter.

Flutie's playoff record is 0-2 and his playoff stats are putrid.  I'd be willing to guess that you didn't even know you were contradicting yourself.

Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions in overtime.  Tebow was embarassed in one of the worst playoff showings in a long time.  That's how their playoff runs finished, by the way.
I am definitely saying wins and playoff results matter far more than how pretty the process is. Although I think running for 5.4 yards per carry is pretty pretty.  I am definitely saying the NFL missed badly on Flutie and Ditka said as much.

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #152 on: May 02, 2013, 11:07:59 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Well wait a second.  Even if that were true then at worst he's an ineffective QB...who can run like a HOF running back.  So why should other ineffective QBs who can't run get to have jobs and he shouldn't?  Because "coach" Ryan cut him?

Look at his passing stats in college. Phenomenal completion percentages against top notch SEC teams. Teams with pro style defense and coaches like Saban and Les Miles.  Could it be that the difference is he had Percy Harvin and Aaron Hernandez? Instead of Eric Decker and....nobody? 

Since the consensus is that Tebow is a third string CFL guy I guess that means coach Fox is a genius and pulled off a miracle right?  But you don't hear people praising the coach that turned around a season with Tebow and did nothing better with Peyton.


I never said he should not have a job.  It is the NFL teams that will decide whether or not he has a job. 


I think he is a football player, not a starting QB in the NFL.  So maybe the biggest thing holding him back from an NFL job (or opportunity) is his willingness to not be the QB.  Maybe he should embrace the idea of being big "slash". 

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #153 on: May 02, 2013, 11:09:23 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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Right, but all things on the field being equal you'd sign Tebow over Vick or Cutler for the jersey sales and PR, right?

The fact that people who get paid to evaluate football talent seem to have reached a conclusion on his ability is telling. At least to me.
The same people that picked JaMarcus Russell #1 and Ryan Leaf #2 and didn't like Flutie?  And passed over Tom Brady? Yup. Same people

I'm not sure I can ignore the fact that you're talking about practice the draft, which is speculation based on performance at the college level and predicting translatable skills, when I'm talking about evaluating the proven talents (or lack thereof) of a player who has played professionally for a season and a half.

The proof is in the pudding. Tebow, thus far, seems to fall fairly well into the mold of Christian Laettner--great in college, no big deal in the pros.
He's a winning QB in the pros. Not only is he a winning QB but he can take over a losing team and take it to the playoffs.  It would be like if Laettner had gone to the Wolves...they were losing...they finally let him play. He plays well and hits a bunch of buzzer beaters, has a very good first round....then people say "i don't know. He can't hit the three or free throws and once they started defending him a little tighter he lost. He probably shouldn't be in the league".   Hey I guess he's a lost cause then

Except what if instead, for this analogy to actually be accurate, his teammates hit a bunch of buzzer beaters after he missed most of his shots in comical and laughable fashion.
Well is he the point guard and they were always missing before he started passing to them? Did they then get Chris Paul and did no better?

Your claim that they did no better with Peyton than with Tebow is inaccurate at best.  The Broncos were much better.

Even if wins and losses is your only measure, 13-3 is better than 7-4.
Where are the post season results to show for it? Not to mention Tebow was a first year starter. Peyton is a HOFer.  But Tebow's first year of starting was far more successful by any measure than Peyton's

I find it funny that you've praised Flutie in this thread and also often express the opinion that only playoff results really matter.

Flutie's playoff record is 0-2 and his playoff stats are putrid.  I'd be willing to guess that you didn't even know you were contradicting yourself.

Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions in overtime.  Tebow was embarassed in one of the worst playoff showings in a long time.  That's how their playoff runs finished, by the way.
I am definitely saying wins and playoff results matter far more than how pretty the process is. Although I think running for 5.4 yards per carry is pretty pretty.  I am definitely saying the NFL missed badly on Flutie and Ditka said as much.

According to eja:

Only playoff results matter. Flutie went 0-2 in the playoffs.  The NFL missed on Flutie.  Makes sense.

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #154 on: May 02, 2013, 11:10:39 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Well wait a second.  Even if that were true then at worst he's an ineffective QB...who can run like a HOF running back.  So why should other ineffective QBs who can't run get to have jobs and he shouldn't?  Because "coach" Ryan cut him?

Look at his passing stats in college. Phenomenal completion percentages against top notch SEC teams. Teams with pro style defense and coaches like Saban and Les Miles.  Could it be that the difference is he had Percy Harvin and Aaron Hernandez? Instead of Eric Decker and....nobody? 

Since the consensus is that Tebow is a third string CFL guy I guess that means coach Fox is a genius and pulled off a miracle right?  But you don't hear people praising the coach that turned around a season with Tebow and did nothing better with Peyton.


I never said he should not have a job.  It is the NFL teams that will decide whether or not he has a job. 


I think he is a football player, not a starting QB in the NFL.  So maybe the biggest thing holding him back from an NFL job (or opportunity) is his willingness to not be the QB.  Maybe he should embrace the idea of being big "slash".
I definitely think he should go slash. I think all teams should be trying slash. I think Tebow does better with the ball in his hands.  I think there are a lot of teams that could do various slash things well. When your QB is as big as a TE and runs faster than one I don't see why you shouldn't be doing more slashy stuff.  If you have Brady or Peyton or Drew you shouldn't. But if you have a lot of other guys you should think about it

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #155 on: May 02, 2013, 11:13:05 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Right, but all things on the field being equal you'd sign Tebow over Vick or Cutler for the jersey sales and PR, right?

The fact that people who get paid to evaluate football talent seem to have reached a conclusion on his ability is telling. At least to me.
The same people that picked JaMarcus Russell #1 and Ryan Leaf #2 and didn't like Flutie?  And passed over Tom Brady? Yup. Same people

I'm not sure I can ignore the fact that you're talking about practice the draft, which is speculation based on performance at the college level and predicting translatable skills, when I'm talking about evaluating the proven talents (or lack thereof) of a player who has played professionally for a season and a half.

The proof is in the pudding. Tebow, thus far, seems to fall fairly well into the mold of Christian Laettner--great in college, no big deal in the pros.
He's a winning QB in the pros. Not only is he a winning QB but he can take over a losing team and take it to the playoffs.  It would be like if Laettner had gone to the Wolves...they were losing...they finally let him play. He plays well and hits a bunch of buzzer beaters, has a very good first round....then people say "i don't know. He can't hit the three or free throws and once they started defending him a little tighter he lost. He probably shouldn't be in the league".   Hey I guess he's a lost cause then

Except what if instead, for this analogy to actually be accurate, his teammates hit a bunch of buzzer beaters after he missed most of his shots in comical and laughable fashion.
Well is he the point guard and they were always missing before he started passing to them? Did they then get Chris Paul and did no better?

Your claim that they did no better with Peyton than with Tebow is inaccurate at best.  The Broncos were much better.

Even if wins and losses is your only measure, 13-3 is better than 7-4.
Where are the post season results to show for it? Not to mention Tebow was a first year starter. Peyton is a HOFer.  But Tebow's first year of starting was far more successful by any measure than Peyton's

I find it funny that you've praised Flutie in this thread and also often express the opinion that only playoff results really matter.

Flutie's playoff record is 0-2 and his playoff stats are putrid.  I'd be willing to guess that you didn't even know you were contradicting yourself.

Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions in overtime.  Tebow was embarassed in one of the worst playoff showings in a long time.  That's how their playoff runs finished, by the way.
I am definitely saying wins and playoff results matter far more than how pretty the process is. Although I think running for 5.4 yards per carry is pretty pretty.  I am definitely saying the NFL missed badly on Flutie and Ditka said as much.

According to eja:

Only playoff results matter. Flutie went 0-2 in the playoffs.  The NFL missed on Flutie.  Makes sense.
The people that disagree with me....wins don't matter. Playoff results don't matter. Passing completion percentage matters.

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #156 on: May 02, 2013, 11:15:27 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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Right, but all things on the field being equal you'd sign Tebow over Vick or Cutler for the jersey sales and PR, right?

The fact that people who get paid to evaluate football talent seem to have reached a conclusion on his ability is telling. At least to me.
The same people that picked JaMarcus Russell #1 and Ryan Leaf #2 and didn't like Flutie?  And passed over Tom Brady? Yup. Same people

I'm not sure I can ignore the fact that you're talking about practice the draft, which is speculation based on performance at the college level and predicting translatable skills, when I'm talking about evaluating the proven talents (or lack thereof) of a player who has played professionally for a season and a half.

The proof is in the pudding. Tebow, thus far, seems to fall fairly well into the mold of Christian Laettner--great in college, no big deal in the pros.
He's a winning QB in the pros. Not only is he a winning QB but he can take over a losing team and take it to the playoffs.  It would be like if Laettner had gone to the Wolves...they were losing...they finally let him play. He plays well and hits a bunch of buzzer beaters, has a very good first round....then people say "i don't know. He can't hit the three or free throws and once they started defending him a little tighter he lost. He probably shouldn't be in the league".   Hey I guess he's a lost cause then

Except what if instead, for this analogy to actually be accurate, his teammates hit a bunch of buzzer beaters after he missed most of his shots in comical and laughable fashion.
Well is he the point guard and they were always missing before he started passing to them? Did they then get Chris Paul and did no better?

Your claim that they did no better with Peyton than with Tebow is inaccurate at best.  The Broncos were much better.

Even if wins and losses is your only measure, 13-3 is better than 7-4.
Where are the post season results to show for it? Not to mention Tebow was a first year starter. Peyton is a HOFer.  But Tebow's first year of starting was far more successful by any measure than Peyton's

I find it funny that you've praised Flutie in this thread and also often express the opinion that only playoff results really matter.

Flutie's playoff record is 0-2 and his playoff stats are putrid.  I'd be willing to guess that you didn't even know you were contradicting yourself.

Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions in overtime.  Tebow was embarassed in one of the worst playoff showings in a long time.  That's how their playoff runs finished, by the way.
I am definitely saying wins and playoff results matter far more than how pretty the process is. Although I think running for 5.4 yards per carry is pretty pretty.  I am definitely saying the NFL missed badly on Flutie and Ditka said as much.

According to eja:

Only playoff results matter. Flutie went 0-2 in the playoffs.  The NFL missed on Flutie.  Makes sense.
The people that disagree with me....wins don't matter. Playoff results don't matter. Passing completion percentage matters.

The point I am making, which you obviously don't understand, is that you say only playoff results matter and then with Flutie you say playoff results don't matter. 

You contradict yourself.  You admit that your method of evaluation is flawed without even knowing it.

Those who disagree with you know there is a complete package of skills and results to evaluate.  Try to keep up.

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #157 on: May 02, 2013, 11:19:16 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Right, but all things on the field being equal you'd sign Tebow over Vick or Cutler for the jersey sales and PR, right?

The fact that people who get paid to evaluate football talent seem to have reached a conclusion on his ability is telling. At least to me.
The same people that picked JaMarcus Russell #1 and Ryan Leaf #2 and didn't like Flutie?  And passed over Tom Brady? Yup. Same people

I'm not sure I can ignore the fact that you're talking about practice the draft, which is speculation based on performance at the college level and predicting translatable skills, when I'm talking about evaluating the proven talents (or lack thereof) of a player who has played professionally for a season and a half.

The proof is in the pudding. Tebow, thus far, seems to fall fairly well into the mold of Christian Laettner--great in college, no big deal in the pros.
He's a winning QB in the pros. Not only is he a winning QB but he can take over a losing team and take it to the playoffs.  It would be like if Laettner had gone to the Wolves...they were losing...they finally let him play. He plays well and hits a bunch of buzzer beaters, has a very good first round....then people say "i don't know. He can't hit the three or free throws and once they started defending him a little tighter he lost. He probably shouldn't be in the league".   Hey I guess he's a lost cause then

Except what if instead, for this analogy to actually be accurate, his teammates hit a bunch of buzzer beaters after he missed most of his shots in comical and laughable fashion.
Well is he the point guard and they were always missing before he started passing to them? Did they then get Chris Paul and did no better?

Your claim that they did no better with Peyton than with Tebow is inaccurate at best.  The Broncos were much better.

Even if wins and losses is your only measure, 13-3 is better than 7-4.
Where are the post season results to show for it? Not to mention Tebow was a first year starter. Peyton is a HOFer.  But Tebow's first year of starting was far more successful by any measure than Peyton's

I find it funny that you've praised Flutie in this thread and also often express the opinion that only playoff results really matter.

Flutie's playoff record is 0-2 and his playoff stats are putrid.  I'd be willing to guess that you didn't even know you were contradicting yourself.

Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions in overtime.  Tebow was embarassed in one of the worst playoff showings in a long time.  That's how their playoff runs finished, by the way.
I am definitely saying wins and playoff results matter far more than how pretty the process is. Although I think running for 5.4 yards per carry is pretty pretty.  I am definitely saying the NFL missed badly on Flutie and Ditka said as much.

According to eja:

Only playoff results matter. Flutie went 0-2 in the playoffs.  The NFL missed on Flutie.  Makes sense.
The people that disagree with me....wins don't matter. Playoff results don't matter. Passing completion percentage matters.

The point I am making, which you obviously don't understand, is that you say only playoff results matter and then with Flutie you say playoff results don't matter. 

You contradict yourself.

Those who disagree with you know there is a package of skills and results to evaluate.  Try to keep up.
I didn't say playoff results with Flutie or anyone else don't matter.  Did I?  I said the NFL missed on Flutie. There are tons of QBs with bad playoff records or non existent playoff records. He could have been as good as them, right?   Don't just pay attention to what I say. Also pay attention to what I don't say. try to keep up.


Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #158 on: May 02, 2013, 11:21:06 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Well wait a second.  Even if that were true then at worst he's an ineffective QB...who can run like a HOF running back.  So why should other ineffective QBs who can't run get to have jobs and he shouldn't?  Because "coach" Ryan cut him?

Look at his passing stats in college. Phenomenal completion percentages against top notch SEC teams. Teams with pro style defense and coaches like Saban and Les Miles.  Could it be that the difference is he had Percy Harvin and Aaron Hernandez? Instead of Eric Decker and....nobody? 

Since the consensus is that Tebow is a third string CFL guy I guess that means coach Fox is a genius and pulled off a miracle right?  But you don't hear people praising the coach that turned around a season with Tebow and did nothing better with Peyton.


I never said he should not have a job.  It is the NFL teams that will decide whether or not he has a job. 


I think he is a football player, not a starting QB in the NFL.  So maybe the biggest thing holding him back from an NFL job (or opportunity) is his willingness to not be the QB.  Maybe he should embrace the idea of being big "slash".
I definitely think he should go slash. I think all teams should be trying slash. I think Tebow does better with the ball in his hands.  I think there are a lot of teams that could do various slash things well. When your QB is as big as a TE and runs faster than one I don't see why you shouldn't be doing more slashy stuff.  If you have Brady or Peyton or Drew you shouldn't. But if you have a lot of other guys you should think about it


I mean rookie "slash".  Before the failed QB attempt.

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #159 on: May 02, 2013, 11:23:05 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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Right, but all things on the field being equal you'd sign Tebow over Vick or Cutler for the jersey sales and PR, right?

The fact that people who get paid to evaluate football talent seem to have reached a conclusion on his ability is telling. At least to me.
The same people that picked JaMarcus Russell #1 and Ryan Leaf #2 and didn't like Flutie?  And passed over Tom Brady? Yup. Same people

I'm not sure I can ignore the fact that you're talking about practice the draft, which is speculation based on performance at the college level and predicting translatable skills, when I'm talking about evaluating the proven talents (or lack thereof) of a player who has played professionally for a season and a half.

The proof is in the pudding. Tebow, thus far, seems to fall fairly well into the mold of Christian Laettner--great in college, no big deal in the pros.
He's a winning QB in the pros. Not only is he a winning QB but he can take over a losing team and take it to the playoffs.  It would be like if Laettner had gone to the Wolves...they were losing...they finally let him play. He plays well and hits a bunch of buzzer beaters, has a very good first round....then people say "i don't know. He can't hit the three or free throws and once they started defending him a little tighter he lost. He probably shouldn't be in the league".   Hey I guess he's a lost cause then

Except what if instead, for this analogy to actually be accurate, his teammates hit a bunch of buzzer beaters after he missed most of his shots in comical and laughable fashion.
Well is he the point guard and they were always missing before he started passing to them? Did they then get Chris Paul and did no better?

Your claim that they did no better with Peyton than with Tebow is inaccurate at best.  The Broncos were much better.

Even if wins and losses is your only measure, 13-3 is better than 7-4.
Where are the post season results to show for it? Not to mention Tebow was a first year starter. Peyton is a HOFer.  But Tebow's first year of starting was far more successful by any measure than Peyton's

I find it funny that you've praised Flutie in this thread and also often express the opinion that only playoff results really matter.

Flutie's playoff record is 0-2 and his playoff stats are putrid.  I'd be willing to guess that you didn't even know you were contradicting yourself.

Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions in overtime.  Tebow was embarassed in one of the worst playoff showings in a long time.  That's how their playoff runs finished, by the way.
I am definitely saying wins and playoff results matter far more than how pretty the process is. Although I think running for 5.4 yards per carry is pretty pretty.  I am definitely saying the NFL missed badly on Flutie and Ditka said as much.

According to eja:

Only playoff results matter. Flutie went 0-2 in the playoffs.  The NFL missed on Flutie.  Makes sense.
The people that disagree with me....wins don't matter. Playoff results don't matter. Passing completion percentage matters.

The point I am making, which you obviously don't understand, is that you say only playoff results matter and then with Flutie you say playoff results don't matter. 

You contradict yourself.

Those who disagree with you know there is a package of skills and results to evaluate.  Try to keep up.
I didn't say playoff results with Flutie or anyone else don't matter.  Did I?  I said the NFL missed on Flutie. There are tons of QBs with bad playoff records or non existent playoff records. He could have been as good as them, right?   Don't just pay attention to what I say. Also pay attention to what I don't say. try to keep up.

There is so much nonsense that you have said that it makes it very difficult to know what is serious, what is sarcastic, and what is left unsaid.  I am finiding it hard to keep up.

You've also criticized Mark Sanchez in this thread, who has a pretty good playoff record and pretty good playoff results.  Since this is your only measure of QB evaluation, why?  Shouldn't you think Sanchez is pretty great?

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #160 on: May 02, 2013, 11:23:22 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Right, but all things on the field being equal you'd sign Tebow over Vick or Cutler for the jersey sales and PR, right?

The fact that people who get paid to evaluate football talent seem to have reached a conclusion on his ability is telling. At least to me.
The same people that picked JaMarcus Russell #1 and Ryan Leaf #2 and didn't like Flutie?  And passed over Tom Brady? Yup. Same people

I'm not sure I can ignore the fact that you're talking about practice the draft, which is speculation based on performance at the college level and predicting translatable skills, when I'm talking about evaluating the proven talents (or lack thereof) of a player who has played professionally for a season and a half.

The proof is in the pudding. Tebow, thus far, seems to fall fairly well into the mold of Christian Laettner--great in college, no big deal in the pros.
He's a winning QB in the pros. Not only is he a winning QB but he can take over a losing team and take it to the playoffs.  It would be like if Laettner had gone to the Wolves...they were losing...they finally let him play. He plays well and hits a bunch of buzzer beaters, has a very good first round....then people say "i don't know. He can't hit the three or free throws and once they started defending him a little tighter he lost. He probably shouldn't be in the league".   Hey I guess he's a lost cause then

Except what if instead, for this analogy to actually be accurate, his teammates hit a bunch of buzzer beaters after he missed most of his shots in comical and laughable fashion.
Well is he the point guard and they were always missing before he started passing to them? Did they then get Chris Paul and did no better?

Your claim that they did no better with Peyton than with Tebow is inaccurate at best.  The Broncos were much better.

Even if wins and losses is your only measure, 13-3 is better than 7-4.
Where are the post season results to show for it? Not to mention Tebow was a first year starter. Peyton is a HOFer.  But Tebow's first year of starting was far more successful by any measure than Peyton's

I find it funny that you've praised Flutie in this thread and also often express the opinion that only playoff results really matter.

Flutie's playoff record is 0-2 and his playoff stats are putrid.  I'd be willing to guess that you didn't even know you were contradicting yourself.

Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions in overtime.  Tebow was embarassed in one of the worst playoff showings in a long time.  That's how their playoff runs finished, by the way.
Right. The Hall of Famer lost at home and the rookie lost on the road. Right. And his loss wasn't as bad as most of Peyton's playoff trips to Foxboro

Peyton earned home field with a 13-3 record.  Right.

hey Peyton was handed a playoff team by a first year starter and took it to 13-3. If you want to give Peyton a trophy for that go right ahead. I don't mind. It can go with all those other trophies he's been handed while Tom made him look junior varisty

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #161 on: May 02, 2013, 11:26:30 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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Right, but all things on the field being equal you'd sign Tebow over Vick or Cutler for the jersey sales and PR, right?

The fact that people who get paid to evaluate football talent seem to have reached a conclusion on his ability is telling. At least to me.
The same people that picked JaMarcus Russell #1 and Ryan Leaf #2 and didn't like Flutie?  And passed over Tom Brady? Yup. Same people

I'm not sure I can ignore the fact that you're talking about practice the draft, which is speculation based on performance at the college level and predicting translatable skills, when I'm talking about evaluating the proven talents (or lack thereof) of a player who has played professionally for a season and a half.

The proof is in the pudding. Tebow, thus far, seems to fall fairly well into the mold of Christian Laettner--great in college, no big deal in the pros.
He's a winning QB in the pros. Not only is he a winning QB but he can take over a losing team and take it to the playoffs.  It would be like if Laettner had gone to the Wolves...they were losing...they finally let him play. He plays well and hits a bunch of buzzer beaters, has a very good first round....then people say "i don't know. He can't hit the three or free throws and once they started defending him a little tighter he lost. He probably shouldn't be in the league".   Hey I guess he's a lost cause then

Except what if instead, for this analogy to actually be accurate, his teammates hit a bunch of buzzer beaters after he missed most of his shots in comical and laughable fashion.
Well is he the point guard and they were always missing before he started passing to them? Did they then get Chris Paul and did no better?

Your claim that they did no better with Peyton than with Tebow is inaccurate at best.  The Broncos were much better.

Even if wins and losses is your only measure, 13-3 is better than 7-4.
Where are the post season results to show for it? Not to mention Tebow was a first year starter. Peyton is a HOFer.  But Tebow's first year of starting was far more successful by any measure than Peyton's

I find it funny that you've praised Flutie in this thread and also often express the opinion that only playoff results really matter.

Flutie's playoff record is 0-2 and his playoff stats are putrid.  I'd be willing to guess that you didn't even know you were contradicting yourself.

Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions in overtime.  Tebow was embarassed in one of the worst playoff showings in a long time.  That's how their playoff runs finished, by the way.
Right. The Hall of Famer lost at home and the rookie lost on the road. Right. And his loss wasn't as bad as most of Peyton's playoff trips to Foxboro

Peyton earned home field with a 13-3 record.  Right.

hey Peyton was handed a playoff team by a first year starter and took it to 13-3. If you want to give Peyton a trophy for that go right ahead. I don't mind. It can go with all those other trophies he's been handed while Tom made him look junior varisty

I didn't know this turned into a Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning debate.  They are both far better QBs than Tim Tebow.

Anyway, since you seem to think football is an individual sport and not a team sport, why hasn't Brady won a Super Bowl since 2004?  By your ridiculous method of QB evaluation, Brady must've been awesome in 2001, strangely became a worse player in 2002, became great again in 2004, and worse since.

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #162 on: May 02, 2013, 11:26:47 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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That's possible. How many games would you say it would take? Another starting season?

Yeah, I'd like to see him be the starter from training camp and see how his progress is during the season.

Back to wanting Joe fired.

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #163 on: May 02, 2013, 11:28:18 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Right, but all things on the field being equal you'd sign Tebow over Vick or Cutler for the jersey sales and PR, right?

The fact that people who get paid to evaluate football talent seem to have reached a conclusion on his ability is telling. At least to me.
The same people that picked JaMarcus Russell #1 and Ryan Leaf #2 and didn't like Flutie?  And passed over Tom Brady? Yup. Same people

I'm not sure I can ignore the fact that you're talking about practice the draft, which is speculation based on performance at the college level and predicting translatable skills, when I'm talking about evaluating the proven talents (or lack thereof) of a player who has played professionally for a season and a half.

The proof is in the pudding. Tebow, thus far, seems to fall fairly well into the mold of Christian Laettner--great in college, no big deal in the pros.
He's a winning QB in the pros. Not only is he a winning QB but he can take over a losing team and take it to the playoffs.  It would be like if Laettner had gone to the Wolves...they were losing...they finally let him play. He plays well and hits a bunch of buzzer beaters, has a very good first round....then people say "i don't know. He can't hit the three or free throws and once they started defending him a little tighter he lost. He probably shouldn't be in the league".   Hey I guess he's a lost cause then

Except what if instead, for this analogy to actually be accurate, his teammates hit a bunch of buzzer beaters after he missed most of his shots in comical and laughable fashion.
Well is he the point guard and they were always missing before he started passing to them? Did they then get Chris Paul and did no better?

Your claim that they did no better with Peyton than with Tebow is inaccurate at best.  The Broncos were much better.

Even if wins and losses is your only measure, 13-3 is better than 7-4.
Where are the post season results to show for it? Not to mention Tebow was a first year starter. Peyton is a HOFer.  But Tebow's first year of starting was far more successful by any measure than Peyton's

I find it funny that you've praised Flutie in this thread and also often express the opinion that only playoff results really matter.

Flutie's playoff record is 0-2 and his playoff stats are putrid.  I'd be willing to guess that you didn't even know you were contradicting yourself.

Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions in overtime.  Tebow was embarassed in one of the worst playoff showings in a long time.  That's how their playoff runs finished, by the way.
I am definitely saying wins and playoff results matter far more than how pretty the process is. Although I think running for 5.4 yards per carry is pretty pretty.  I am definitely saying the NFL missed badly on Flutie and Ditka said as much.

According to eja:

Only playoff results matter. Flutie went 0-2 in the playoffs.  The NFL missed on Flutie.  Makes sense.
The people that disagree with me....wins don't matter. Playoff results don't matter. Passing completion percentage matters.

The point I am making, which you obviously don't understand, is that you say only playoff results matter and then with Flutie you say playoff results don't matter. 

You contradict yourself.

Those who disagree with you know there is a package of skills and results to evaluate.  Try to keep up.
I didn't say playoff results with Flutie or anyone else don't matter.  Did I?  I said the NFL missed on Flutie. There are tons of QBs with bad playoff records or non existent playoff records. He could have been as good as them, right?   Don't just pay attention to what I say. Also pay attention to what I don't say. try to keep up.

There is so much nonsense that you have said that it makes it very difficult to know what is serious, what is sarcastic, and what is left unsaid.  I am finiding it hard to keep up.

You've also criticized Mark Sanchez in this thread, who has a pretty good playoff record and pretty good playoff results.  Since this is your only measure of QB evaluation, why?  Shouldn't you think Sanchez is pretty great?
You didn't notice a Mark Sanchez regression last year? Yes. Yes. He didn't have good receivers. Just like Tebow in Denver didn't.   Well then run. Oh wait. He can't. Tebow can. 

Re: 2013 NFL Football
« Reply #164 on: May 02, 2013, 11:29:19 AM »

Offline celtsfan84

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Right, but all things on the field being equal you'd sign Tebow over Vick or Cutler for the jersey sales and PR, right?

The fact that people who get paid to evaluate football talent seem to have reached a conclusion on his ability is telling. At least to me.
The same people that picked JaMarcus Russell #1 and Ryan Leaf #2 and didn't like Flutie?  And passed over Tom Brady? Yup. Same people

I'm not sure I can ignore the fact that you're talking about practice the draft, which is speculation based on performance at the college level and predicting translatable skills, when I'm talking about evaluating the proven talents (or lack thereof) of a player who has played professionally for a season and a half.

The proof is in the pudding. Tebow, thus far, seems to fall fairly well into the mold of Christian Laettner--great in college, no big deal in the pros.
He's a winning QB in the pros. Not only is he a winning QB but he can take over a losing team and take it to the playoffs.  It would be like if Laettner had gone to the Wolves...they were losing...they finally let him play. He plays well and hits a bunch of buzzer beaters, has a very good first round....then people say "i don't know. He can't hit the three or free throws and once they started defending him a little tighter he lost. He probably shouldn't be in the league".   Hey I guess he's a lost cause then

Except what if instead, for this analogy to actually be accurate, his teammates hit a bunch of buzzer beaters after he missed most of his shots in comical and laughable fashion.
Well is he the point guard and they were always missing before he started passing to them? Did they then get Chris Paul and did no better?

Your claim that they did no better with Peyton than with Tebow is inaccurate at best.  The Broncos were much better.

Even if wins and losses is your only measure, 13-3 is better than 7-4.
Where are the post season results to show for it? Not to mention Tebow was a first year starter. Peyton is a HOFer.  But Tebow's first year of starting was far more successful by any measure than Peyton's

I find it funny that you've praised Flutie in this thread and also often express the opinion that only playoff results really matter.

Flutie's playoff record is 0-2 and his playoff stats are putrid.  I'd be willing to guess that you didn't even know you were contradicting yourself.

Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champions in overtime.  Tebow was embarassed in one of the worst playoff showings in a long time.  That's how their playoff runs finished, by the way.
I am definitely saying wins and playoff results matter far more than how pretty the process is. Although I think running for 5.4 yards per carry is pretty pretty.  I am definitely saying the NFL missed badly on Flutie and Ditka said as much.

According to eja:

Only playoff results matter. Flutie went 0-2 in the playoffs.  The NFL missed on Flutie.  Makes sense.
The people that disagree with me....wins don't matter. Playoff results don't matter. Passing completion percentage matters.

The point I am making, which you obviously don't understand, is that you say only playoff results matter and then with Flutie you say playoff results don't matter. 

You contradict yourself.

Those who disagree with you know there is a package of skills and results to evaluate.  Try to keep up.
I didn't say playoff results with Flutie or anyone else don't matter.  Did I?  I said the NFL missed on Flutie. There are tons of QBs with bad playoff records or non existent playoff records. He could have been as good as them, right?   Don't just pay attention to what I say. Also pay attention to what I don't say. try to keep up.

There is so much nonsense that you have said that it makes it very difficult to know what is serious, what is sarcastic, and what is left unsaid.  I am finiding it hard to keep up.

You've also criticized Mark Sanchez in this thread, who has a pretty good playoff record and pretty good playoff results.  Since this is your only measure of QB evaluation, why?  Shouldn't you think Sanchez is pretty great?
You didn't notice a Mark Sanchez regression last year? Yes. Yes. He didn't have good receivers. Just like Tebow in Denver didn't.   Well then run. Oh wait. He can't. Tebow can.

I guess it makes sense that you would think Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker are poor receivers.

It's taken you so long to admit that the quality of team surrounding a QB also impacts his ability to win and lose games.  I'm proud of you, you've made progress today.