CB Draft Finals: (1) Mavericks vs. (1) Bulls

[StartOrien]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I__BwT8TO8g .

[BigAlTheFuture]

Arguments and debates aside. Chicago clearly has the better team, big names or not. I'll go with Chicago on this one.

[StartOrien]

While I don't agree with the nature of Roy's speech of defeat, I do believe the Mavericks are significantly better than the Bulls. And I really haven't seen anything to make me think elsewise.

[Who]

I think Jrue Holiday is one of those players who does a lot more than he appears (or his box score stats make him appear) to do.

I think being 6-4, long, freakishly athletic and a tough defensive player makes him a really difficult matchup for opposing guards. That defensive ability both as a man-to-man defender and also as team defender allows him to both make life difficult for his opposing check and be a disruptive influence on team defense.

That physical talent + defensive ability allows J.Holiday to regularly play above his weight against the best PGs in the league. To make their life more difficult and (offense below) do better against them than you would expect by just glancing at his numbers.

Offensively, Jrue Holiday has a nice range of scoring moves. He can get to the rim and finish in the paint. He is good in transition. He has a three point shot. He has a nice pull-up jumper from 14-18 feet off the dribble that he can get on any PG in the league. That versatility in his range of scoring and ability to create those shots consistently makes him a tough cover.

For example, in playoffs

• Against Boston, Jrue only scored 13.9ppg on 41% which doesn't look great at first blush. But I thought Jrue was their best shot-creator against Boston's defense. He led his team in scoring at 13.9ppg and on 0.89 points per possession (points divided by FGAs, .5 FTAs, TOs) which was well above his team's average of 0.83 points per possession.
• In the previous round, against Chicago. Rose got injured but the Bulls are still a very strong defensive team without him. CJ Watson is solid defender too. Jrue Holiday led his team with a more impressive 18ppg but again the scoring efficiency was 0.92 which again was well above the Sixers team average of 0.86
• The year prior in the playoffs, against Miami, another terrific defensive team (especially on the perimeter) Jrue Holiday went for 14.2ppg on 0.93 points per possession which again was well above average 0.87.

 

That is three of the toughest defensive teams (Boston, Chicago and Miami) in the league right there. In the playoffs. Two seven game series. Pressure environment.

On top of that, Jrue Holiday has shown himself to be a 6-7 assist guy when he is allowed to run the offense instead of sharing the load with Iggy and Co. (like he'll be asked to do with Wade and Pierce in Chicago) + shows good composure and decision making on the ball in giving his offense solid organization + he also avoids turnovers. I think Philly were first in the league last year in committing the least turnovers. Not special but very solid across the board (as a passer and floor general).

Being 6 foot 4, having long arms and freakishly athletic + being a hard-nosed defensive player + having a versatile range of scoring moves ... regularly allows Jrue Holiday to punch above his (perceived) weight against the toughest matchups in the league at both an individual level and team level. 

Mental toughness. Physical toughness. Well-rounded offensive game combined with high level defensive work and physical talent.

Anyway, I just wanted to explain why I rate Jrue Holiday the way I do. Why I am high on him.

[Kane3387]

Sooo is this it for the arguements then?  Feel kinda jipped for spending so much time yesterday battling it out only to see the finals end after 2 opening statements.

regahhhdless, i'm gonna hold onto my vote for another hour or two.

Yeah.  I learned a long time ago that when the case is over, quit arguing.

Here, folks have made up their minds already.  The fact that Dallas has received a total of two questions all day, but that everyone is throwing in for Chicago, shows that trying to convince folks is an exercise in futility.

Chicago doesn't have the better team, but they do have bigger names overall, and they've got a more sympathetic GM.  That's all it takes in this game.  I give a tip of the hat to those who stayed open-minded and who actually tried to appreciate what this series would look like on the court. 

Ru Paul has his second championship.  This time he didn't ride Lebron's coattails, he rode the wave of sympathy for IP and the crest of voter apathy, where more than 50% of GMs couldn't even be bothered to cast votes.

I think you're letting some frustration get to you. I doubt people are THAT convinced this series is over. I think going into more detail about your strategy, especially if the other person doesn't, would make a big difference.

To come this far and throw in the towel seems pretty disappointing. Hopefully you reconsider. There is a lot of time left.

If you are up for it. Here are a few questions.

In detail please explain Lebron James role on defense. It seems like he will guard Wade some. Does that mean he won't always be a PF? In fact maybe only a PF for a limited amount of time?

How much Kyrie Irving and Lebron James pick and roll/pop will we see? I love it when Rondo and Pierce do this at the top of the key an almost always Rondo's man switches on to Paul. I think Jarrett Jack and Jrue Holiday would get annihilated in this kind of sequence.

Any consideration to a lineup of James, Thabo, Green, Brand, and Varejao? Then just attacking Jack or Holiday  and their lack of size?

The two best players in this series are James and Wade. What do you foresee or expect from either of them next season and why? Just curious on your thoughts for both players upcoming years.

[Kane3387]

Arguments and debates aside. Chicago clearly has the better team, big names or not. I'll go with Chicago on this one.

Why? What is the reasoning behind your vote? It helps others when they get to read insight.

[Kane3387]

While I don't agree with the nature of Roy's speech of defeat, I do believe the Mavericks are significantly better than the Bulls. And I really haven't seen anything to make me think elsewise.

Same response as the one to Big Al above. I would love to see more insight for why you and Big Al feel the way you do. Especially since you guys have opposing views.

[StartOrien]

You know what, f' it. I'm a real american, I'll fight for what's right, fight for Dallas' life.

I don't see how anyone could take Chicago here.

They're a team playing against Lebron James without any interior defense. Not a hint of it. Brenan Haywood sucks. Chris Bosh would literally dive out of the way if he saw that freight train coming. An aging Paul Pierce and Thadeus Young can't stop him by themselves, heck, they can't even come close to holding him to his averages. His MONSTER averages, btw.

And they're countering that with what, exactly? A team of players that all came off a playoff where they all under performed? Dwyane Wade couldn't put a stamp on a series that featured Ray Allen running about as fast as my grandmother. I literally had to check basketball-reference.com to confirm that Thadeus Young and Jrue Holiday played in the playoffs this year. This is CelticsBlog, I know you guys saw these games.

There is significantly more evidence to support that these are just who these players are now, than there are to defy it*.

The Mavs have a means to slow down the Bulls top players. Sefolosha is a strong defensive two against Wade, who again, looks to be in the decline. Buy Roy's Brand arguments or not, the defense to at least keep Bosh in check is more than there. And hate to say it, but what is Paul Pierce going to be able to do against Lebron James? We saw what he could do with KG covering his back, now add a year and swap KG with either Bosh or Brendan Haywood.

With this in mind, how in the heck does Chicago counter Dallas' ability to own Lebron James?

-----

I mean, look at who's post above about Jrue Holiday. Yes, Jrue Holiday has struggled against great defenses. Well, guess what? This Dallas team, which made the fictional Finals, is a GREAT defensive team as well.

[Who]

Any consideration to a lineup of James, Thabo, Green, Brand, and Varejao? Then just attacking Jack or Holiday  and their lack of size?

Thabo is too limited offensively. The Bulls could hide Jrue or Jack on him easily enough.

I do think that is a very good lineup though. Not for offensive reasons but for defensive and rebounding reasons. All that size on the perimeter. Two excellent rebounders like Thabo and LeBron in the backcourt. Incredibly athletic trio of perimeter players with excellent size and length. They would cause mayhem together on the defensive end of the court (especially with their activity on team defense) and would be a dominant rebounding lineup.

[Roy H.]

I think you're letting some frustration get to you.

I absolutely am.

To explain why:

* We've had about 10 or 11 GMs voting per round.

* 1 of those GMs has never voted for a Roy H. team, in any round, in any year.  That's despite my team being no lower than a #3 seed in any year.

* Another of those GMs has never voted for one of my teams past the second round in any season.

* A third GM has indicated that IP would be the winner this year since the second day of the draft, and has indicated that he won't vote for my team due to non-basketball reasons.

* Prior to your post, a grand total of two questions have been asked of my team, despite multiple people labeling Chicago as better.

* Of the votes already cast (many before any sort of argument has been made), the vast majority favor Chicago, to the point where it's an insurmountable deficit.

I'm not going to spend time away from my family this evening arguing for the enjoyment of folks who take glee in voting against me.

EDIT:  I tried to split out this post and a few others from this thread, and merge them into the general CB Draft thread.  Unfortunately, the software isn't cooperating, so sorry for clogging up this thread with my venting.

[StartOrien]

Any consideration to a lineup of James, Thabo, Green, Brand, and Varejao? Then just attacking Jack or Holiday  and their lack of size?

Thabo is too limited offensively. The Bulls could hide Jrue or Jack on him easily enough.

I do think that is a very good lineup though. Not for offensive reasons but for defensive and rebounding reasons. All that size on the perimeter. Two excellent rebounders like Thabo and LeBron in the backcourt. Incredibly athletic trio of perimeter players with excellent size and length. They would cause mayhem together on the defensive end of the court (especially with their activity on team defense) and would be a dominant rebounding lineup.

Roy also has Ben Gordon if offense is becoming a problem. Obviously you're losing a lot defensively, but I've always though Ben Jordan was OK on that end of the floor

[ronaldo943]

I can respect folks who are honest, and say that they're voting for IP because of legitimate basketball reasons.  I can respect those who tell me they'll never vote for a Roy H. team, because they don't like me personally (there are at least two such GMs in this draft).  What I can't respect are folks who vote against me without reading my view of the series, or giving this more than 2 minutes of thought.

Chicago is not a better team than Dallas, and they wouldn't win in a series.

So you respect guys who dont vote for you just because they hate you?

[Who]

Any consideration to a lineup of James, Thabo, Green, Brand, and Varejao? Then just attacking Jack or Holiday  and their lack of size?

Thabo is too limited offensively. The Bulls could hide Jrue or Jack on him easily enough.

I do think that is a very good lineup though. Not for offensive reasons but for defensive and rebounding reasons. All that size on the perimeter. Two excellent rebounders like Thabo and LeBron in the backcourt. Incredibly athletic trio of perimeter players with excellent size and length. They would cause mayhem together on the defensive end of the court (especially with their activity on team defense) and would be a dominant rebounding lineup.

Hmmm ... For the offensive matchups you were talking about (going big on the perimeter, creating mismatches and playing power basketball), I'd go with Kleiza instead of Thabo.

Kleiza has a strong post game and is 6-8 240lbs. You can't hide any guard (PG or SG) on him. Have LeBron and Thabo defend the guards.

Kleiza is a dodgy defender though. One would want to be able to put Kleiza on Chandler Parsons or Thaddeus Young. Can't let Pierce or Wade go off on a tear. Too vulnerable against them (net negative for team). Probably have to wait for that opportunity to use that type of lineup.

[Roy H.]

I can respect folks who are honest, and say that they're voting for IP because of legitimate basketball reasons.  I can respect those who tell me they'll never vote for a Roy H. team, because they don't like me personally (there are at least two such GMs in this draft).  What I can't respect are folks who vote against me without reading my view of the series, or giving this more than 2 minutes of thought.

Chicago is not a better team than Dallas, and they wouldn't win in a series.

So you respect guys who dont vote for you just because they hate you?

I'd respect them more if they were honest about it.

[Kane3387]

Thabo is too limited offensively. The Bulls could hide Jrue or Jack on him easily enough.

So have Thabo set a screen and force a switch? It wouldn't work 100% of the time but it would still be very effective in forcing a lot of mismatches.