Danny and Doc extremely upset with Ray

[crownsy]

What I don't understand is the fan argument that Ray "screwed" the team, or left them in a terrible position.  Unless Ray promised Danny that he'd be back, then it's Danny's job to plan for the contingency of Ray leaving.  (Danny did this, by the way, by signing Terry.)  Nobody was "screwed"; this was a business decision that everyone should have known was a possibility.

You know, I expect this viewpoint from a lawyer ("what do you mean? everything was perfectly legal!"), but is this what we've come to in 2012? That nobody bears any responsibility for the consequences of their decisions unless contractually obligated to do so? Do you get mad at Peter Parker for being upset with himself for not stopping the mugger?

Only lawyers hold the view that you shouldn't rely on something happening until it's promised?  

If I'm a manufacturer, and I very publicly go looking for a different widget supplier, does my current widget supplier "screw me over" if he chooses to take his business to a different manufacturer once our contract expires?  Of course not.  Nobody got screwed.  Rather, in a free market, the supplier chose to do business with somebody he considered to be a more loyal customer.  That's business.

Some fans want to personalize this.  Go ahead, but realize that Ray didn't owe you anything.

You really don't think that he thought that he owed us just a little something?

Why the ad (PR piece in the Globe) then?

As Roy pointed out, you can like the customers at a place you worked but move on to a new place regardless.

And that's what we are to pro athletes, customers. I'm sure Ray liked playing in front of us, but I don't think we factor into ANY players decision as much as we like to think we do as fans.

[CelticG1]

You know, for someone who complains people don't answer your points with a rational argument, you sure didn't do anything like refute Roy's points here.

I am a free agent forum poster. I am not obligated to make my twentieth post on this subject as detailed as the last nineteen.

Three years for 27M basically speaks for itself, and even you seem to concede that this really undermines Allen's position. You are no longer on the side of the angels when you make an offer than the organization can't accept, and then turn around to accept one that was worse than what they offered.

I'm not saying that you can't make an argument that this is perfectly acceptable, however I would suggest taking a step back and noting the shape of the pretzel that you need to contort yourself into in order to make this situation logically consistent with "Allen didn't deliberately stick it to the Celtics". It would not be comfortable even for a Yoga master, is where I am going with that.

Semantics are important here. Roy doesn't get away with calling Ainge's shenanigans a "threat", because that implies something pretty specific. Maybe I let it slide if I am not arguing with the forum lawyer, but I am, so there you go.

If an employer had "tried" to transfer me to a branch office i didn't want to go to multiple times, and I personally was offend by that conduct (again, rightly or wrongly) then I have the right, when my contract for employment is up, to take that into account.

Here is a list of the people who have argued that Allen didn't have the right to take everything into account in his decision:

Code: [Select]

If you don't see anything there, that might be because said person doesn't actually exist. From where I'm standing, it's mostly people arguing that Allen is a scumbag jerkface, not that he's a scumbag jerkface who doesn't follow the rules.

Regarding Allen as a "professional", I just think that he would suck it up, in terms of dealing with Rondo. He doesn't have to, ofc, and he is professional in all other respects, supposing for a moment that we pretend that rumors of him whispering sweet nothings into the ears of the Boston sports media are baseless. But this isn't Mayo getting punched in the face at 60,000 ft, either, which brings new meaning to "hostile work environment".

The straw man argument you toss up against anyone who disagrees with something you write "twisting themselves into a pretzel" to defend ray Allen gets just as tired to read as posts trying to change your feeling on the matter you know. especially as one who has never actually, you know, defended Ray's decision.

I'm simply stating that the posters such as yourself who want all of us to jump on board with the "RAYS A TRAITOR!!!!" line of logic don't defend it real well, and i don't agree with it.

to be clear, I think he made a bad decision. I don't like the decision. But he was a free agent and able to take his talents to whatever team, for whatever reason he wanted.

I am actually happy he didn't resign. I loved Ray, but it was time to move on at the SG position. What i don't understand is this feeling that Ray Allen is a "traitor" because he chose a team you don't like. This idea that he "owed it" to the celtics to choose to come back or sign with someone other than the heat. He didn't owe the Celtics or the fans anything. I know we all look at it as such an honor and privilege for these guys to be graced with our fan hood, but he is paid to do a job. he did it for 5 years.

Then he chose, wrongly in my opinion, to move on for a different club. He doesn't "owe" me anything. I will cheer him once when he gets back, for the memories he gave me, then proceed to boo him like any other member of a rival team.   

As Roy's hypo pointed out, he made a business decision. Despite your straw man come back that I am "twisting myself into knots" to defend ray allen, i think it was a bad business decision, made on more emotion than logic.

That doesn't make him a traitor worthy of scorn for making a decision i don't agree with.
 

You and Ray can say it was "a business decision" but everyone knows it was a personal emotional decision that didn't come down to business

If he's taking a lot less money for a job elsewhere and uprooting his family going to a rival competitor its pretty clear what he did wasn't about business

[kozlodoev]

You think there's a reason why Ray Allen is being villified and James Posey wasn't?

Because most people can relate to making a decision based upon money, but don't have the luxury of foregoing it for personal happiness?  Since some folks can't relate to what Ray did, they react bitterly to it.

It's fine doing somethign for personal happiness. There are several things at play here, however:

1. There is enormous amount of spin being generated on this blog and elsewhere about how "it's just business". It's isn't.

2. After 5 years of talking about and being of the faces of the "ubuntu" team, when you turn around and go to another club, people will get the feelings you've just given them lip service.

3. Ray Allen hasn't really come clean about why he jumped ship, so obviously the speculation is rampant. So he'll live with the consequences.

[crownsy]

You know, for someone who complains people don't answer your points with a rational argument, you sure didn't do anything like refute Roy's points here.

I am a free agent forum poster. I am not obligated to make my twentieth post on this subject as detailed as the last nineteen.

Three years for 27M basically speaks for itself, and even you seem to concede that this really undermines Allen's position. You are no longer on the side of the angels when you make an offer than the organization can't accept, and then turn around to accept one that was worse than what they offered.

I'm not saying that you can't make an argument that this is perfectly acceptable, however I would suggest taking a step back and noting the shape of the pretzel that you need to contort yourself into in order to make this situation logically consistent with "Allen didn't deliberately stick it to the Celtics". It would not be comfortable even for a Yoga master, is where I am going with that.

Semantics are important here. Roy doesn't get away with calling Ainge's shenanigans a "threat", because that implies something pretty specific. Maybe I let it slide if I am not arguing with the forum lawyer, but I am, so there you go.

If an employer had "tried" to transfer me to a branch office i didn't want to go to multiple times, and I personally was offend by that conduct (again, rightly or wrongly) then I have the right, when my contract for employment is up, to take that into account.

Here is a list of the people who have argued that Allen didn't have the right to take everything into account in his decision:

Code: [Select]

If you don't see anything there, that might be because said person doesn't actually exist. From where I'm standing, it's mostly people arguing that Allen is a scumbag jerkface, not that he's a scumbag jerkface who doesn't follow the rules.

Regarding Allen as a "professional", I just think that he would suck it up, in terms of dealing with Rondo. He doesn't have to, ofc, and he is professional in all other respects, supposing for a moment that we pretend that rumors of him whispering sweet nothings into the ears of the Boston sports media are baseless. But this isn't Mayo getting punched in the face at 60,000 ft, either, which brings new meaning to "hostile work environment".

The straw man argument you toss up against anyone who disagrees with something you write "twisting themselves into a pretzel" to defend ray Allen gets just as tired to read as posts trying to change your feeling on the matter you know. especially as one who has never actually, you know, defended Ray's decision.

I'm simply stating that the posters such as yourself who want all of us to jump on board with the "RAYS A TRAITOR!!!!" line of logic don't defend it real well, and i don't agree with it.

to be clear, I think he made a bad decision. I don't like the decision. But he was a free agent and able to take his talents to whatever team, for whatever reason he wanted.

I am actually happy he didn't resign. I loved Ray, but it was time to move on at the SG position. What i don't understand is this feeling that Ray Allen is a "traitor" because he chose a team you don't like. This idea that he "owed it" to the celtics to choose to come back or sign with someone other than the heat. He didn't owe the Celtics or the fans anything. I know we all look at it as such an honor and privilege for these guys to be graced with our fan hood, but he is paid to do a job. he did it for 5 years.

Then he chose, wrongly in my opinion, to move on for a different club. He doesn't "owe" me anything. I will cheer him once when he gets back, for the memories he gave me, then proceed to boo him like any other member of a rival team.  

As Roy's hypo pointed out, he made a business decision. Despite your straw man come back that I am "twisting myself into knots" to defend ray allen, i think it was a bad business decision, made on more emotion than logic.

That doesn't make him a traitor worthy of scorn for making a decision i don't agree with.
 

You and Ray can say it was "a business decision" but everyone knows it was a personal emotional decision that didn't come down to business

If he's taking a lot less money for a job elsewhere and uprooting his family going to a rival competitor its pretty clear what he did wasn't about business

Did you actually read my post by chance?

Or did you stop after i said it was a business decision?

just so were clear:

to be clear, I think he made a bad decision. I don't like the decision. But he was a free agent and able to take his talents to whatever team, for whatever reason he wanted.

Serious question, since you lump "me and ray" saying it was a business decision when i flat out say after the first paragraph that i think it was a bad decision.

His decision to go to another team, is by definition a "business decision" since it is about where he will employ his craft.

But if you had read further than the first paragraph before mashing the reply button to label me a ray allen supporter, you would have seen me making the argument that ray made a bad decision.

[Interceptor]

The straw man argument you toss up against anyone who disagrees with something you write "twisting themselves into a pretzel" to defend ray Allen gets just as tired to read as posts trying to change your feeling on the matter you know. especially as one who has never actually, you know, defended Ray's decision.

It's not a straw man, it's call for you to have a little bit of perspective. Another post had Ray going to Miami maybe because Flo Allen wanted to live in a warm retirement community. I read things like this and wonder if people take a step back and look at what they typed into a text box on the Internet.

I'm a believer in Occam's Razor; maybe this makes me a heretic, c'est la vie.

That doesn't make him a traitor worthy of scorn for making a decision i don't agree with.

Not for you perhaps, but it does for me! I will happily produce a mea culpa if the known facts change, but with nothing but platitudes from the man himself and nothing but pin-drop-silence from his friends and teammates, it ain't lookin' good.

[CelticHooligan3]

...
Some fans want to personalize this.  Go ahead, but realize that Ray didn't owe you anything.

If we didn't personalize practically everything that the organization does, we wouldn't be fans, so of course we personalize this.  It impacts our experience of the Celtics.  I think maybe it's not nothing (as in it is more than nothing) that he owes the fans, but of course, they're not going to be the primary factor in his decision making process.  His loyalty should have primarily been with the guys in the locker room, his teammates and his coaches (with probably some affection for the fans as well; he was clearly touched by the "Let's go Celtics" chant).  Given that we came within a few minutes of knocking off the Heat without key contributors being healthy, it's reasonable to think that we might still overtake them this coming season.  And if his major issue was about being dangled as trade bait, if that issue was taken off the table by a no trade clause, then, by and large, the major thorn in his butt was removed from the equation, at which point, one might hope he would have felt some sense of loyalty to the guys he had gone to war with for the past 5 years.  If he felt any such, it was overwhelmed by, I think, a desire to screw Celtics management over, especially when you consider the twice the money and trades off the table aspect.  I don't see how he looks KG and PP in the face.

Why is it a one way street?

Why is Ray demonized for leaving the team, but Danny isn't vilified for attempting to trade Ray?

Danny Ainge walked away from some of this team's hardest working players.  He told Perk, Posey, and Powe to pound salt.  Should we burn Danny in effigy, because he frustrated our expectations as fans?  Or do we realize that he was doing what he thought was right?

Ray did what he thought was right.  He made a decision that worked for him, and presumably his family.  That's his prerogative.  Some fans have a sense of entitlement that a man should be required to work some place he's not happy just because they offered him more money than somewhere else.  Who are we to tell somebody else where or how he should find happiness?

Exactly.  It is threads like this one why Boston sports fans are vilified and hated nationally.  Believe me, I live in Ohio, about the only fan base worse than Boston is New York (to most people here).  To put it in perspective, Ohioans think more highly of the SEC football team fan bases, then they do of the Boston fan bases. 

The sense of entitlement is disgusting.  Makes me sad to be a Celtic fan frankly.

Really brah? Maybe you don't understand the mindset because, YOUR FROM OHIO.

Yes, we are spoiled. Yes, we are passionate and at times delusional (not in this case however). Yes, we DO demand a lot from our players and organizations.

But guess what? That's what makes us BOSTON!

If you wanna tell us how poorly Ohioans view us as fans i say we could care less. And they're probably just jealous because we dominate them in every professional sports the majority of the time.

Name one professional team from Ohio with a more storied history than any of ours.
The browns maybe? Lol.

If your gonna insult the entire fanbase for not seeing your view and your not even from here you might wanna try getting in touch with the pulse of the city more and figure out why we tick first. Just sayin..

[crownsy]

The straw man argument you toss up against anyone who disagrees with something you write "twisting themselves into a pretzel" to defend ray Allen gets just as tired to read as posts trying to change your feeling on the matter you know. especially as one who has never actually, you know, defended Ray's decision.

It's not a straw man, it's call for you to have a little bit of perspective. Another post had Ray going to Miami maybe because Flo Allen wanted to live in a warm retirement community. I read things like this and wonder if people take a step back and look at what they typed into a text box on the Internet.

I'm a believer in Occam's Razor; maybe this makes me a heretic, c'est la vie.

That doesn't make him a traitor worthy of scorn for making a decision i don't agree with.

Not for you perhaps, but it does for me! I will happily produce a mea culpa if the known facts change, but with nothing but platitudes from the man himself and nothing but pin-drop-silence from his friends and teammates, it ain't lookin' good.

It is a straw man when you say I am twisting myself into anything. I could give a fig less what other posters have said to you in other threads.

Generalizations, as you made about me, are straw man arguments.

 

[D.o.s.]

...
Some fans want to personalize this.  Go ahead, but realize that Ray didn't owe you anything.

If we didn't personalize practically everything that the organization does, we wouldn't be fans, so of course we personalize this.  It impacts our experience of the Celtics.  I think maybe it's not nothing (as in it is more than nothing) that he owes the fans, but of course, they're not going to be the primary factor in his decision making process.  His loyalty should have primarily been with the guys in the locker room, his teammates and his coaches (with probably some affection for the fans as well; he was clearly touched by the "Let's go Celtics" chant).  Given that we came within a few minutes of knocking off the Heat without key contributors being healthy, it's reasonable to think that we might still overtake them this coming season.  And if his major issue was about being dangled as trade bait, if that issue was taken off the table by a no trade clause, then, by and large, the major thorn in his butt was removed from the equation, at which point, one might hope he would have felt some sense of loyalty to the guys he had gone to war with for the past 5 years.  If he felt any such, it was overwhelmed by, I think, a desire to screw Celtics management over, especially when you consider the twice the money and trades off the table aspect.  I don't see how he looks KG and PP in the face.

Why is it a one way street?

Why is Ray demonized for leaving the team, but Danny isn't vilified for attempting to trade Ray?

Danny Ainge walked away from some of this team's hardest working players.  He told Perk, Posey, and Powe to pound salt.  Should we burn Danny in effigy, because he frustrated our expectations as fans?  Or do we realize that he was doing what he thought was right?

Ray did what he thought was right.  He made a decision that worked for him, and presumably his family.  That's his prerogative.  Some fans have a sense of entitlement that a man should be required to work some place he's not happy just because they offered him more money than somewhere else.  Who are we to tell somebody else where or how he should find happiness?

Exactly.  It is threads like this one why Boston sports fans are vilified and hated nationally.  Believe me, I live in Ohio, about the only fan base worse than Boston is New York (to most people here).  To put it in perspective, Ohioans think more highly of the SEC football team fan bases, then they do of the Boston fan bases. 

The sense of entitlement is disgusting.  Makes me sad to be a Celtic fan frankly.

Really brah? Maybe you don't understand the mindset because, YOUR FROM OHIO.

Yes, we are spoiled. Yes, we are passionate and at times delusional (not in this case however). Yes, we DO demand a lot from our players and organizations.

But guess what? That's what makes us BOSTON!

If you wanna tell us how poorly Ohioans view us as fans i say we could care less. And they're probably just jealous because we dominate them in every professional sports the majority of the time.

Name one professional team from Ohio with a more storied history than any of ours.
The browns maybe? Lol.

If your gonna insult the entire fanbase for not seeing your view and your not even from here you might wanna try getting in touch with the pulse of the city more and figure out why we tick first. Just sayin..

One man's closed-minded moron is another man's passionate fan.

I understand why Ray left. Doesn't mean I don't hold it against him. As some article (in the Herald, maybe?) pointed out, we're a pretty jingoistic bunch.

Which is a fairly reasonable assessment. I'm not gonna burn my Ray jersey, but I am going to wish him the utmost misfortune every minute he's on the court.

[Mencius]

...It is threads like this one why Boston sports fans are vilified and hated nationally.  Believe me, I live in Ohio, about the only fan base worse than Boston is New York (to most people here).  To put it in perspective, Ohioans think more highly of the SEC football team fan bases, then they do of the Boston fan bases.  

The sense of entitlement is disgusting.  Makes me sad to be a Celtic fan frankly.

The sanctimony in some of these posts is high entertainment.  

[danglertx]

...
Some fans want to personalize this.  Go ahead, but realize that Ray didn't owe you anything.

If we didn't personalize practically everything that the organization does, we wouldn't be fans, so of course we personalize this.  It impacts our experience of the Celtics.  I think maybe it's not nothing (as in it is more than nothing) that he owes the fans, but of course, they're not going to be the primary factor in his decision making process.  His loyalty should have primarily been with the guys in the locker room, his teammates and his coaches (with probably some affection for the fans as well; he was clearly touched by the "Let's go Celtics" chant).  Given that we came within a few minutes of knocking off the Heat without key contributors being healthy, it's reasonable to think that we might still overtake them this coming season.  And if his major issue was about being dangled as trade bait, if that issue was taken off the table by a no trade clause, then, by and large, the major thorn in his butt was removed from the equation, at which point, one might hope he would have felt some sense of loyalty to the guys he had gone to war with for the past 5 years.  If he felt any such, it was overwhelmed by, I think, a desire to screw Celtics management over, especially when you consider the twice the money and trades off the table aspect.  I don't see how he looks KG and PP in the face.

Why is it a one way street?

Why is Ray demonized for leaving the team, but Danny isn't vilified for attempting to trade Ray?

Danny Ainge walked away from some of this team's hardest working players.  He told Perk, Posey, and Powe to pound salt.  Should we burn Danny in effigy, because he frustrated our expectations as fans?  Or do we realize that he was doing what he thought was right?

Ray did what he thought was right.  He made a decision that worked for him, and presumably his family.  That's his prerogative.  Some fans have a sense of entitlement that a man should be required to work some place he's not happy just because they offered him more money than somewhere else.  Who are we to tell somebody else where or how he should find happiness?

Exactly.  It is threads like this one why Boston sports fans are vilified and hated nationally.  Believe me, I live in Ohio, about the only fan base worse than Boston is New York (to most people here).  To put it in perspective, Ohioans think more highly of the SEC football team fan bases, then they do of the Boston fan bases. 

The sense of entitlement is disgusting.  Makes me sad to be a Celtic fan frankly.

I don't want to pile on too much.  Everyone posts something stupid they regret typing at some point.  But are these Ohio great fans the ones who were burning Lebron's jersey while their owner was publicly trashing Lebron after "the Decision."  I recall Ohioans not being quite as understanding about Lebron's deciding he'd rather take his talents to South Beach.  For exercising his prerogative to work somewhere else this Mecca of sports understanding had to hire extra security when the Heat came back for the first time and had anti-Lebron t-shirts made up.     

I'm not sure I want or need Ohio's fans respect but I do hope we handle Allen a little better than Ohio with one of their players leaving.

[cman88]

I Love the apologists using the argument that we the fans have no basis to be mad at allen because he owes us nothing..

if thats the case, then why discuss sports at all? why discuss your teams decisions? obviously they owe you nothing, why discuss contracts being good or bad? its not our money?

we are emotionally invested in these teams, and like it or not when a player who we are emotionally invested in leaves town to our biggest rival for half the money, there is going to be a reaction.

I wonder if some of the posters telling those who disagree with ray how to think and that he owes us nothing were so defensive of Ainge when he traded perk...afterall, danny owes us nothing, its just business right?

[danglertx]

I Love the apologists using the argument that we the fans have no basis to be mad at allen because he owes us nothing..

if thats the case, then why discuss sports at all? why discuss your teams decisions? obviously they owe you nothing, why discuss contracts being good or bad? its not our money?

we are emotionally invested in these teams, and like it or not when a player who we are emotionally invested in leaves town to our biggest rival for half the money, there is going to be a reaction.

I wonder if some of the posters telling those who disagree with ray how to think and that he owes us nothing were so defensive of Ainge when he traded perk...afterall, danny owes us nothing, its just business right?

Well said.  TP

[Roy H.]

I wonder if some of the posters telling those who disagree with ray how to think...

Who is telling you how to think?

Or is your objection that some people disagree with your stance?

[Interceptor]

Who is telling you how to think?

If "get over it" was a dry twig, this forum would be a fire hazard.

[danglertx]

I wonder if some of the posters telling those who disagree with ray how to think...

Who is telling you how to think?

Or is your objection that some people disagree with your stance?

There are three kinds of posts on here.  The "Ray is a traitor" post,  the "How dare you say Ray is a traitor, it was his right to leave" post, and the "I'll always remember Ray for helping us win in 08" post. 

There is a big difference between the second and third one.  The people who "hate" or are upset and want to boo Ray aren't trying to convince any of the other posters to feel like they do. 

There are a lot of self-righteous "how dare you feel that way about Ray" posters however.