Danny and Doc extremely upset with Ray

[jambr380]

Ughhh, more Ray stuff...geez...

Well, it's his own problem. Another two year contract and his number would have been hanging in the Garden forever. He has essentially turned into a journeyman rather than a hero.

[JSD]

I understand being hurt on a personal level. 

What I don't understand is the fan argument that Ray "screwed" the team, or left them in a terrible position.  Unless Ray promised Danny that he'd be back, then it's Danny's job to plan for the contingency of Ray leaving.  (Danny did this, by the way, by signing Terry.)  Nobody was "screwed"; this was a business decision that everyone should have known was a possibility.

If the team just expected Ray to come back because they wanted him to, maybe there's something to the "Ray was taken for granted" argument after all.

Per usual you nail this issue. Loyalty is only a 1 sides arrangement to alot of fans around here and it's unfair. The Celtics did what they felt was good for them by dangling him in trades every year and Allen excerised his own right by leaving. Those angered by his departure should place some of the blame on Celtic management.  

[GreenFaith1819]

Not surprised. If I were Danny or Doc, I'd be upset too. They're one of a very few people with a legitimate beef.

The fans don't have the right to be mad for the same reasons? Why not?

Cuz what Ray did had nothing to do with the fans personally.

  By that standard, do fans ever have a legitimate reason to be angry at players?

What Ray did totally affects the fans.  We're the ones who are ultimately paying for these players to play, on the basis that we produce billions of dollars for the NBA by watching the games and buying merchandise/tickets.  We are also the ones who invest so much emotion, energy, and time just watching these guys play.  We grow to love the players on our team (regardless of skill, i.e. Scalabrine).  When they lose a game, the whole city loses a game.  When they win, the whole city wins and we get a parade.  When they cry.. well thats going a little bit too far...

But my point is.. Nobody really wanted to see him leave.. Especially not to go to the Heat.  We understand that from a business stand point that Ray felt his time with the team was over (tired of being used as trade bait/Beef with Rondo/Losing confidence in our system/Feeling like he's being replaced etc.).. and thats very understandable as everything must come to an end at some point. 

But to leave a team like the Celtics, with so much history and emphasis on the name on the front of the jersey rather than the back, and to go to a heated rival in the Heat.. Not only is that slap in the face of the franchise..  But he snitch slapped the crud out of the fans.  We absolutely hate the Heat.  Why in the world would you slight your fans and go to a team that we absolutely hate.  A team that eliminated us from the playoffs twice in a row.  Aside from the Lakers, there is no other team I hate more than the Heat.  I'm sure most of Boston feels this way too..

So yea.. this has a lot to do with the fans.  Not only do these guys play with our money, they play with our emotions too and why Ray would do that to the city of Boston is just mindboggling to me. 

But don't you think he's entitled to his reasons for leaving - whatever they were?

Yes, but when at the same time he goes about it in a "screw the sentiments of the fans/community", we'll make sure to let him know the consequences of his actions. In part, losing our support.

I understand what you are saying, but perhaps - and this is from the speculation department - Ray Allen thought that his "support" had been whittled down to nothingness over the last few yrs - in reference to the trades.

From CelticsBlog to Danny Ainge - Walter Ray Allen has been the most traded Celtic in a LOOOOOOOONG time.

We call it "Part of the business", yes - but try telling that to someone who has to go through it.

Yes - these "athletes" we follow get paid a LOT of money to be ready to be traded - but does that make it easier on them?

The vast majority of atheletes handle trades or trade talk  well - IN PUBLIC.

Perhaps Ray Allen thought it was best to leave - on his OWN terms.

As I've mentioned countless times before, I have no problem with Ray leaving. I have a problem with how he left, and to who he went to. I can understand him no longer being happy with playing with the Celtics any longer.

As much as there's an argument for the Celtics organization taking him for granted, as mentioned above, he took the fans and community for granted himself by leaving to the Heat.

There were few ways Ray Allen leaving for another team could anger the Celtics' fanbase, and he just about did all of them.

But even with Ray's ultimate choice, he really had NO other options....Clips cancelled their meeting just hrs before he was supposed to go to their meeting.

They went to Billups and Crawford.

Minny had interest, but it was lukewarm, at best.

MIA, as ugly a choice as it was - was his ONLY choice.

Look at it this way - if Ray Allen was TRULY spiteful, he would've chosen MIA right off the bat. We ALL know that they have been courting Ray Allen for two years, now.

It is with those thoughts that I strongly believe that Ray Allen had already chosen to leave...I'm guessing that his first choice WASN'T MIA...it was already reported on CelticsBlog that even AFTER his meeting with MIA he was "torn" in his decision....

Ray Allen wasn't spiteful towards BOS or it's fans if you ask me.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Only choice? Please.

[Mencius]

...
Oddly enough, even as a fan who loathes Allen at this point, I don't really think Danny should have any beef with Ray.

Danny has no loyalty to anyone.

Doc, and KG/Pierce have legit reason to feel betrayed though.

I think you're mostly right here, although I'd say Danny's loyalty is to ownership, whose goal is presumably to win championships, so his job is to do whatever he thinks gives the Celtics the best chance to do so.  But the players and coaches absolutely have a right to be upset that Ray would jump ship for half the price to our enemies (if his concerns about being traded had already been dealt with as reported).

[GreenFaith1819]

Only choice? Please.

Yep.

In that whatever was going on with Ray Allen, he had ALREADY made up his mind, for the most part, to leave - and to me, that is telling.

My guess is that at the end of the day he HATES MIA...but not enough to stay in BOS.

I hope I got my point across - I confuse even myself at times.

But again - I truly believe, from speculation ONLY - that he had already chosen to leave...MIA just turned out to be an ugly, but willing partner.

How many of us believe, especially after THAT Heat Introduction - that Ray was TRULY happy with his decision?

Whatever reason Ray had for leaving, it must've been THAT BAD for him that he had to go to MIA.

Look - Ray did NOT turn traitor on us. But whatever options us as fans think he had, or even whatever options he THOUGHT he had - Ray Allen was just NOT going to stay in BOS.

His time was up. He had to move on - for whatever reason.

And knowing Ray - we as fans will probably NEVER know. As we shouldn't.

[kozlodoev]

If the team just expected Ray to come back because they wanted him to, maybe there's something to the "Ray was taken for granted" argument after all.

I'm sorry, but the team did everything they reasonably could have this offseason to make sure they have the best offer for Ray, and this is hardly taking him for granted.

[BudweiserCeltic]

All I'm saying is that thinking that leaving to MIA was his only choice is a bit naive, and foolish. He was one of the first free-agents to commit, and we hadn't even reached the point where free-agents could sign a contract.

There was plenty of time to find a team for him, and plenty of time to find a better contract than 9 million for 3 years (if that's true at all).

Sorry, I don't buy Miami being his only choice. For a proud player, he sold-out quite easily to a team which has been his rival in the past two seasons, eliminating him from the championship.

I don't know how anyone can respect his decision to go to them.

[Mencius]

Not surprised. If I were Danny or Doc, I'd be upset too. They're one of a very few people with a legitimate beef.

The fans don't have the right to be mad for the same reasons? Why not?

Cuz what Ray did had nothing to do with the fans personally.

This is only true if you think that nothing the Celtics do has anything to do with the fans personally.  We who spend so much of our time following everything about this team certainly feel like personnel decisions affect how we experience the team.  If nothing the Celtics did had anything to do with fans personally, there'd be no fans.

[CelticG1]

Not surprised. If I were Danny or Doc, I'd be upset too. They're one of a very few people with a legitimate beef.

Oddly enough, even as a fan who loathes Allen at this point, I don't really think Danny should have any beef with Ray.

Danny has no loyalty to anyone.

Doc, and KG/Pierce have legit reason to feel betrayed though.

On another matter though; how is it you're always here, always posting, yet seem to always appear as "offline"?  Do you possess some sort of blogging superpowers, that allow you to post even when not "online"?  Just wondering, It's kinda wierd, and probably wierd that I've noticed it.

The thing is its not really about loyalty its about business.

Danny offered Ray the best deal business wise (please don't even attempt to suggest that Miami could be a better business decision)

Danny wasn't asking Ray to take a pay cut and be loyal, he said we will pay you more than anyone else, we want you andray pretty much slapped him in the face.

It would have been like Ray saying he'd take the minimum and Danny saying no thanks. It just wouldn't happen because it would be a stupid business decision

Also Pierce must have deleted the tweet cause I can't find it now but after the Ray news broke Pierce tweeted very very shortly after something along the lines of:

"I want to welcome Jason Terry to the Celtics, best 6th man in the league"

Just a little passive aggressiveness on his part

[GreenFaith1819]

All I'm saying is that thinking that leaving to MIA was his only choice is a bit naive, and foolish. He was one of the first free-agents to commit, and we hadn't even reached the point where free-agents could sign a contract.

There was plenty of time to find a team for him, and plenty of time to find a better contract than 9 million for 3 years (if that's true at all).

Sorry, I don't buy Miami being his only choice. For a proud player, he sold-out quite easily to a team which has been his rival in the past two seasons, eliminating him from the championship.

I don't know how anyone can respect his decision to go to them.

Well, in that case, my WORST case scenario is that he DID try to stick DANNY (not BOS) - by going to MIA.

Us as fans only see a TINY bit of what goes on in REAL time.

Perhaps he remembered PERK - and wanted to leave on HIS OWN terms.

We all remember how divided and hurt we were (still are in some cases) with Perk being traded out of the blue?

Perhaps, looking at the other side of the spectrum - Ray wanted to stick Danny? Perhaps Ray, after two or three yrs of trade speculation (and remembering PERK) - saw the writing on the wall and chose to leave while he could?

Who knows?

Danny Ainge? I can't hate the man. He is the GM of one of the winningest franchises in ALL of Sports - Boston Celtics.

He has a job to do. IMO, that job is perhaps the hardest one of all.

For me, it would be difficult to be a GM. I'd have too many bonds with players. It would be nearly impossible to part with anyone who I saw bust their behinds for the team - even if it made the team better.

[Potapenko Boxout]

[Edited.]  Personal attacks are not allowed under any circumstances.

[Interceptor]

What I don't understand is the fan argument that Ray "screwed" the team, or left them in a terrible position.  Unless Ray promised Danny that he'd be back, then it's Danny's job to plan for the contingency of Ray leaving.  (Danny did this, by the way, by signing Terry.)  Nobody was "screwed"; this was a business decision that everyone should have known was a possibility.

You know, I expect this viewpoint from a lawyer ("what do you mean? everything was perfectly legal!"), but is this what we've come to in 2012? That nobody bears any responsibility for the consequences of their decisions unless contractually obligated to do so? Do you get mad at Peter Parker for being upset with himself for not stopping the mugger?

It is not even debatable that the team was left in a worse position by Allen's leaving, due to the intricacies of the CBA, so that above point is literally all that this is about.

I think the majority of players are fine with being "traitors".  Players want the right to determine where they work.  

Didn't KG demand a trade?  Didn't Pierce threaten to?  Were they traitors to their teammates, as well?  Probably, but it didn't stop them from doing what they thought was best for themselves.

This is an overly simplistic view of the situation. Players want the right to work where they want, but that's not mutually exclusive with loyalty to team and teammates, although they can come into conflict at times. Players may be fine with being "traitors", but not with being traitors.

Who on planet Earth is going to call KG a traitor? He's one of the most loyal guys in the league. KG didn't pull the ripcord after a rough patch, he gave himself to that inept organization for what, 12 years? If he is going to get criticized for anything, it's for staying too long. Pierce threatened to demand a trade, but he also gave the team a reasonable out: get him some help. He's made good on it.

Allen's kerfuffle is all about the circumstances.

[Roy H.]

What I don't understand is the fan argument that Ray "screwed" the team, or left them in a terrible position.  Unless Ray promised Danny that he'd be back, then it's Danny's job to plan for the contingency of Ray leaving.  (Danny did this, by the way, by signing Terry.)  Nobody was "screwed"; this was a business decision that everyone should have known was a possibility.

You know, I expect this viewpoint from a lawyer ("what do you mean? everything was perfectly legal!"), but is this what we've come to in 2012? That nobody bears any responsibility for the consequences of their decisions unless contractually obligated to do so? Do you get mad at Peter Parker for being upset with himself for not stopping the mugger?

Only lawyers hold the view that you shouldn't rely on something happening until it's promised? 

If I'm a manufacturer, and I very publicly go looking for a different widget supplier, does my current widget supplier "screw me over" if he chooses to take his business to a different manufacturer once our contract expires?  Of course not.  Nobody got screwed.  Rather, in a free market, the supplier chose to do business with somebody he considered to be a more loyal customer.  That's business.

Some fans want to personalize this.  Go ahead, but realize that Ray didn't owe you anything.

[Mencius]

 

Players may be fine with being "traitors", but not with being traitors.

   Nicely done.