Danny and Doc extremely upset with Ray

[Roy H.]

The Celtics community and it's fanbase should be a factor in Ray's decision on where to go to next, we weren't. So screw him, makes him a complete hypocrite. ...

But at the very least, I would think that the fanbase is entitled to at least a bit of consideration for your future plans. I don't think that's much to ask.

Isn't it possible -- even probable -- that Ray appreciated and respected the fan base, but other factors weighed in, too?

Let's assume the following:

1.  You're independently wealthy beyond most people's wildest dreams;

2.  You feel (rightly or wrongly) that your employer doesn't really appreciate you, as he's threatened to transfer you to undesireable locations numerous time in the past;

3.  You really despise one of your co-workers, who you're required to spend almost all of your time with.

Under those circumstances, is it a rational decision to leave, even if you really like your customers?  If you moved somewhere where it's warmer, more exciting, and has better fringe benefits, does that suggest that you're giving the middle finger to your customer base?

[Mencius]

...
Some fans want to personalize this.  Go ahead, but realize that Ray didn't owe you anything.

If we didn't personalize practically everything that the organization does, we wouldn't be fans, so of course we personalize this.  It impacts our experience of the Celtics.  I think maybe it's not nothing (as in it is more than nothing) that he owes the fans, but of course, they're not going to be the primary factor in his decision making process.  His loyalty should have primarily been with the guys in the locker room, his teammates and his coaches (with probably some affection for the fans as well; he was clearly touched by the "Let's go Celtics" chant).  Given that we came within a few minutes of knocking off the Heat without key contributors being healthy, it's reasonable to think that we might still overtake them this coming season.  And if his major issue was about being dangled as trade bait, if that issue was taken off the table by a no trade clause, then, by and large, the major thorn in his butt was removed from the equation, at which point, one might hope he would have felt some sense of loyalty to the guys he had gone to war with for the past 5 years.  If he felt any such, it was overwhelmed by, I think, a desire to screw Celtics management over, especially when you consider the twice the money and trades off the table aspect.  I don't see how he looks KG and PP in the face.

Why is it a one way street?

Why is Ray demonized for leaving the team, but Danny isn't vilified for attempting to trade Ray?

Danny Ainge walked away from some of this team's hardest working players.  He told Perk, Posey, and Powe to pound salt.  Should we burn Danny in effigy, because he frustrated our expectations as fans?  Or do we realize that he was doing what he thought was right?

Ray did what he thought was right.  He made a decision that worked for him, and presumably his family.  That's his prerogative.  Some fans have a sense of entitlement that a man should be required to work some place he's not happy just because they offered him more money than somewhere else.  Who are we to tell somebody else where or how he should find happiness?

It is certainly Ray's prerogative to go anywhere his services are wanted. No one is contesting that.  It doesn't mean that we won't be upset if he decides to go elsewhere if we feel like it negatively impacts our team.  People can vilify or hang Danny in effigy if they please.  My perspective is that Danny's loyalty is to management and trying to give the team the best possible chance to win championships.  He should be judged on his success or failure in that endeavor.  A more natural analogy about Danny would be if he went to the Lakers or Heat to be their GM for half the money Wyc was offering him.  Then it'd be apples to apples.  As it is, Danny's job is not to be loyal to the players, it's to improve the Celtics.

Ultimately, if Ray was simply not happy with his work environment, it was his prerogative to move on to whatever situation he wanted to, just as it is our prerogative as fans to think he made a poor choice.  From my perspective, after he was offered twice the money, and the no trade thing was resolved, he should have been loyal to the guys in the locker room.  He chose not to be.  I choose to regard that as disloyalty to his teammates and coaches.  

[Roy H.]

You think there's a reason why Ray Allen is being villified and James Posey wasn't?

Because most people can relate to making a decision based upon money, but don't have the luxury of foregoing it for personal happiness?  Since some folks can't relate to what Ray did, they react bitterly to it.

[BudweiserCeltic]

The Celtics community and it's fanbase should be a factor in Ray's decision on where to go to next, we weren't. So screw him, makes him a complete hypocrite. ...

But at the very least, I would think that the fanbase is entitled to at least a bit of consideration for your future plans. I don't think that's much to ask.

Isn't it possible -- even probable -- that Ray appreciated and respected the fan base, but other factors weighed in, too?

Let's assume the following:

1.  You're independently wealthy beyond most people's wildest dreams;

2.  You feel (rightly or wrongly) that your employer doesn't really appreciate you, as he's threatened to transfer you to undesireable locations numerous time in the past;

3.  You really despise one of your co-workers, who you're required to spend almost all of your time with.

Under those circumstances, is it a rational decision to leave, even if you really like your customers?  If you moved somewhere where it's warmer, more exciting, and has better fringe benefits, does that suggest that you're giving the middle finger to your customer base?

Well, consider he's leaving to a team that has eliminated him twice in a row (contradictory to a prideful man like him). Consider that he's leaving to a team with a player he apparently detests in Chalmers. Consider, that he's leaving for a fraction of his market value. Consider that he's probably going to play the same role (potentially even a lesser one) than what he currently had with the Celtics. Consider that he made a fairly quick decision, didn't really explore options and jumped right into bed with the enemy.

Yeah, I don't think there was much consideration to the fanbase. The only consideration he gave us was "well, I don't think they'll be too angry with me for going to Miami". Well, you were wrong Ray.

Ray can go wherever he wants, to make him feel happy. Doesn't mean that the Celtics community should be happy with his decision, or supportive. In fact, we have the right to be quite angry about it, and boo his ass to eternity.

And to answer your question, if I left for someplace warmer, and joined the company of our biggest competitors, then yes, it would be a bit of giving the customer base the middle finger.

Question to you, would you feel the same way had he gone to the Lakers instead?

[JSD]

Ray just posted this to his social networks: http://articles.boston.com/2012-07-10/sports/32606124_1_celtics-ray-allen-avery-bradley


The negative reaction is getting to him.

[CelticG1]

Please, comparing Danny to looking at (fair value) trades for Ray and Ray leaving for half money is a joke.

Now if Danny trades Ray for a second round pick then I would think Danny would be vilified.

And I think Ray does owe the Boston fans. I think he thinks so too by taking out that full page ad in the globe.

[Interceptor]

Only lawyers hold the view that you shouldn't rely on something happening until it's promised?

I said "that nobody bears any responsibility for the consequences of their decisions unless contractually obligated to do so?", and I have no idea how that got transformed into "rely on something happening until it's promised?" between my post and your reply.

I am talking about people being responsible for the consequences of their choices. You basically ignored my point, and are still talking about promises and contracts.

If I'm a manufacturer, and I very publicly go looking for a different widget supplier, does my current widget supplier "screw me over" if he chooses to take his business to a different manufacturer once our contract expires?  Of course not.  Nobody got screwed.  Rather, in a free market, the supplier chose to do business with somebody he considered to be a more loyal customer.  That's business.

As others have pointed out, this analogy falls apart like a house of cards when you extend it to include the money, the contract, and the counter-offer. As I said: this is all about the circumstances.

Some fans want to personalize this.  Go ahead, but realize that Ray didn't owe you anything.

You know, I think my new pet peeve about this forum, is people implying that I need their permission to feel the way that I do about something.

[indeedproceed]

Please, comparing Danny to looking at (fair value) trades for Ray and Ray leaving for half money is a joke.

Why? Ray exercised his right as a free agent with professionalism and class, while Danny handled his own roster in much the same manner. They both did what they felt they had to do for the interests they advocated. Danny for his team, Ray for his career, his family.

[BleedGreen1989]

The Celtics community and it's fanbase should be a factor in Ray's decision on where to go to next, we weren't. So screw him, makes him a complete hypocrite. ...

But at the very least, I would think that the fanbase is entitled to at least a bit of consideration for your future plans. I don't think that's much to ask.

Isn't it possible -- even probable -- that Ray appreciated and respected the fan base, but other factors weighed in, too?

Let's assume the following:

1.  You're independently wealthy beyond most people's wildest dreams;

2.  You feel (rightly or wrongly) that your employer doesn't really appreciate you, as he's threatened to transfer you to undesireable locations numerous time in the past;

3.  You really despise one of your co-workers, who you're required to spend almost all of your time with.

Under those circumstances, is it a rational decision to leave, even if you really like your customers?  If you moved somewhere where it's warmer, more exciting, and has better fringe benefits, does that suggest that you're giving the middle finger to your customer base?

Couldn't of said it any better myself. Seriously people need to get off Rays back and move on, he's gone. Hate him if it makes you feel better but the guy made a decision that a lot of us would make in a similar situation in our lives.

[danglertx]

I think people also see him as actually being traded earlier in the season though too. And as a result didn't owe the team as much as people think. However I think it was ultimately petty. He was offered a no trade clause and twice the money as a way of saying "Hey Ray. Our Bad. We Love You." I think he owed Pierce and KG and Doc more then, 'well guys, peace. I am off to join the team that ended our season the last two years."

I read the CBA last night when someone had a question about Howard sitting out the year, and I can tell you the Celtics didn't offer Allen a no trade clause because no trade clauses are forbidden by the CBA.  Yes I am an attorney and read things like that for fun.

What they can do is give a bonus that would make trading a player very difficult.

[D.o.s.]

I think people also see him as actually being traded earlier in the season though too. And as a result didn't owe the team as much as people think. However I think it was ultimately petty. He was offered a no trade clause and twice the money as a way of saying "Hey Ray. Our Bad. We Love You." I think he owed Pierce and KG and Doc more then, 'well guys, peace. I am off to join the team that ended our season the last two years."

I read the CBA last night when someone had a question about Howard sitting out the year, and I can tell you the Celtics didn't offer Allen a no trade clause because no trade clauses are forbidden by the CBA.  Yes I am an attorney and read things like that for fun.

What they can do is give a bonus that would make trading a player very difficult.

I've never heard this, can you provide a link?

Also, would it be possible to write in a player-veto over trade decisions and offers into a contract? Would that work around the No-Trade Clause language enough?

[MBunge]

If you moved somewhere where it's warmer, more exciting, and has better fringe benefits, does that suggest that you're giving the middle finger to your customer base?

Saying the Celtics have to give you 3 years and 27 million to stay, then signing with Miami for 2 years, 6 million, THAT'S the middle finger.  If Ray had gone somewhere else for more money, I doubt anyone would be complaining.  If he'd gone somewhere else because he wanted to start, there might be some grumbling but not much.  But Ray didn't just take less money.  He took less than 1/4th want he wanted from Boston and about half what Boston had offered.  He also went to a team where he will play a much smaller role than he would have in Boston, after making it clear that starting, playing time and involvement in the offense was one of the things he was bothered by.

I've said it before, but let's see how Ray likes it after he gets a DNP-CD or two in Miami.  With Miller, Battier, Chalmers, Cole, Jones and now Lewis all vying for the same minutes and Spolstra's willingness to change lineups and rotations at the drop of a hat, Ray is absolutely going to find himself on the bench a lot next season.

Mike

[Interceptor]

1.  You're independently wealthy beyond most people's wildest dreams;

2.  You feel (rightly or wrongly) that your employer doesn't really appreciate you, as he's threatened to transfer you to undesireable locations numerous time in the past;

3.  You really despise one of your co-workers, who you're required to spend almost all of your time with.

Under those circumstances, is it a rational decision to leave, even if you really like your customers?  If you moved somewhere where it's warmer, more exciting, and has better fringe benefits, does that suggest that you're giving the middle finger to your customer base?

1) 3 years, 27 million.
2a) "threatened" = "tried". This was not a hostage negotiation.
2b) No-trade clause/kicker.
3) Consummate professional. "But he really hated Rondo!". See item #1.

[danglertx]

I think people also see him as actually being traded earlier in the season though too. And as a result didn't owe the team as much as people think. However I think it was ultimately petty. He was offered a no trade clause and twice the money as a way of saying "Hey Ray. Our Bad. We Love You." I think he owed Pierce and KG and Doc more then, 'well guys, peace. I am off to join the team that ended our season the last two years."

I read the CBA last night when someone had a question about Howard sitting out the year, and I can tell you the Celtics didn't offer Allen a no trade clause because no trade clauses are forbidden by the CBA.  Yes I am an attorney and read things like that for fun.

What they can do is give a bonus that would make trading a player very difficult.

I've never heard this, can you provide a link?

Also, would it be possible to write in a player-veto over trade decisions and offers into a contract? Would that work around the No-Trade Clause language enough?

I don't think I can give you a link, it is inside a document not a website page.  I'll try to find it again real quick and copy and past the relevant portion for you.

[danglertx]

ART
ICLE XXIV PROHIBITION OF NO-TRADE CONTRACTS
Section 1. Ge
neral Limitation.
No Player Contract may contain any prohibition or limitation of an NBA Team’s right to assign such Contract to another NBA Team.
Section 2.
Exceptions to General Limitation.
Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 1 of this Article XXIV:
A Player Con
tract may contain (in Exhibit 4 to such Player Contract) a provision entitling a Player to earn Compensation if the player’s Uniform Player Contract is traded (“trade bonus”) subject to the following:
(i)
A trade bonus shall be payable only the first time that the Contract is traded (and not as a result of any subsequent trade); provided, however, that if a Contract is signed in connection with an agreement to trade the Contract in accordance with Article VII, Section 8(e) and the Contract contains a trade bonus, the bonus shall not apply to such initial trade but shall instead be payable only if the Contract is traded a second time (and not as a result of any subsequent trade).
(ii
) A trade bonus shall not exceed 15% of the Base Compensation remaining to be earned by the player pursuant to the Contract at the time of the trade (excluding an Option Year if not yet exercised).
308
(iii
) The only allowable amendment to Exhibit 4 to a Uniform Player Contract shall be the specification of the amount of the trade bonus to be paid to the player, expressed as either (A) a specified percentage of the Base Compensation remaining to be earned under the Contract at the time of the trade (excluding an Option Year if not yet exercised), or (B) a specified dollar amount not to exceed a specified percentage of Base Compensation remaining to be earned under the Contract at the time of the trade (excluding an Option Year if not yet exercised).
(iv) A
Contract that does not contain a trade bonus when signed cannot be amended to add one, except that: (A) if the Contract is extended (other than pursuant to an agreement to trade the extended Contract in accordance with Article VII, Section 8(e)), the Contract may be amended simultaneously to provide for a trade bonus that will be payable only the first time that the Contract is traded following the signing of the Extension (and not as a result of any subsequent trade) and (B) if the Contract is extended pursuant to an agreement to trade the extended Contract in accordance with Article VII, Section 8(e), the Contract may be amended simultaneously to provide for a trade bonus that shall not apply to such initial trade but shall instead be payable only if the extended Contract is traded a second time (and not as a result of a subsequent trade).
A Pla
yer Contract entered into by a player who has eight ( or more Years of Service in the NBA and who has rendered four (4) or more Years of Service for the Team 309
310
entering into such Contract may contain a prohibition or limitation of such Team’s right to trade such Contract to another NBA Team.


There you go, enjoy.