The Bradley 20-8 Run was overrated

[rayallen1934]

Color me surprised that someone sporting Ray Allen in the username believes Avery Bradley to be overrated.

i also believed Garnett was the most valuable player


when your a fan of your team, youll love a lot of things about them


I just think Bradley isnt as valuable as he looked because of that 20-8 run

I think hes a good player, and can possibly be a starter,

but i dont think there winning in the playoffs with him getting starter minutes

[syfy9]

I for one disagree.  But more I really wonder what your point of this post is?  You think that if Ray Allen was playing in those games we would have had a better record?  Is that what you are implying?

I really don't know how anyone who watched the C's last year game in game out can say that the reason we got on our run was the lack of competition.  The reason we went on the run was KG got into shape and started playing like the monster he is and AB stepped up big time and added to the clamp down / lock down def.  We were way more athletic and aggressive on both ends and we played to our potential.

So exactly what are you complaining about?

Do people even look at the boxscores. Watching the game is one thing, but when you take a look at the teams they beat, the players who performed and the record. Then compare it to the beginning of the season, you will start to see the real reason why that 20-8 was overrated.

How many days did those 20-8 games come in? No matter the competition ANY team can beat you on ANY given day! A lot of factors of last season made the teams we face harder to defeat than just the players on that team! If it had nothing to do with AB, do you think Doc would have risked Ray's ego and would he change what had been working if it was? I guess Doc and everyone else (the people who really know and not some "fan") must be lying b/c they all credit the change to AB as the catalyst for the better play... mainly b/c of his defense! Before AB moved into the starting lineup KG and PP both had already begun to play much better... we still we losing! Are "you" telling me KG and PP were playing terrible until the last 28 games? Come on now!

The Celtics played the Lakers twice. Two big games for Celtics and Celtic fans right?

The first on February 9th 2012

We lost that game 88-87 .............1 POINT

Kevin Garnett was 6-23

Paul Pierce was 7-18 , 18 points ,did contribute with 7 assists

Ray Allen was a decent 9-20, 22 points

2nd game

Allen 6-13, 17 points, 6 assists

Pierce 4-14 , 13 points

Garnett, 7-11, 14 points , 0 attempts at the FT LINE




All i know is you continue to look at these games. The real reason the Celtics were not better was because these guys either were lazy, or not in shape...

So it made Ray look a lot worse...

That 20-8 record could have easily been 20-8 or better, the way these guys finally kicked into high gear, especially Garnett...


The more and more i see , I begin to think Rondo didnt want Allen here anymore. And that was the biggest reason for Ray's crazy decision

I think Ray Allen is overrated.

He wasn't going to save our offense or drastically improve compared to Bradley's contributions. I'm sure you've taken it upon yourself like many fans to watch games the early part of the season; You would have seen Ray struggling to score in a half court offense, and having our team waste precious shot clock time to try to get him open on curls and screens.


I love Ray during fast breaks where Rondo passes to him as he trails, or when the defense isn't set and make a mistake leaving Ray wide open, but he's a liability now in a half court offense...For the Celtics anyway - we have too few that can dribble penetrate/attract help defense.

Bradley provides so much better man to man defense than Ray - That's a fact, and not really arguable. But on offense, Bradley was and is a more ideal compliment to Rondo. He can move without the ball - one of the best in the league, if you've watched the run. He's also shown flashes of a spot up shooter during the stretch. Bradley is cherished - but for good reason.

If Rondo could step up and shoot during Ray Allens running around screens , we wouldnt have to see 20 seconds wasted...

But Rondo cant shoot unless he wants too

Rondo is special but he is unique for this team

I believe he will suffer not having a shooter back there

Jason Terry is not a "shooter"

With Bradley starting and playing which celtic fans think will be around 30 minutes a game.. so yea rondo will strugle IMO

So when Ray was out injured and AB was starting in his place, was Rondo struggling? Negative.

In fact (you can go look at boxscores for this, as well) he was dominating and putting up assists like crazy. Actually, his streak for consecutive games with double figure assists - most of which came with Ray sidelined - is still active for the 12/13 season.

It helps that Pierce wasnt shooting 3-17 anymore as he was when Ray was playing well

easy to rack up assists when your guys finally make shots

While Pierce and the rest of the team's performance did have an impact, if you've watched the run we had, you could tell that the offense was running incredibly smooth. Pierce was getting the touches he wanted, instead of sharing them with Ray and his dreaded screen running.

[rayallen1934]

This was per John Hollinger (pretty respected EXPERT on NBA stats):

The Celtics outscored opponents by about 15 points per 100 possessions when Bradley played. When the 19th pick in the 2010 draft sat, Boston was outscored by more than four points, for a nearly twenty-point swing. When a shoulder injury forced Bradley to the bench ten games into the playoffs, Boston lost a ton.

Waiting on a response, ever so patiently, from all you Ray Allen worshippers:-)))

Smitty77

Too many factors for me to even care about. Who did they beat? Did they blowout teams...i mean its a silly stat.

In the playoffs, Ray Allen was a decent in that category, and

in the heat series better than anybody in the starting lineup in that category


does it mean anything?

So the stats ony matter when they are in Ray Allen's favor? F*** that.

Where did I say that?

Ray played bad in games, and in games he played bad the Celtics did lose.

[rayallen1934]

I for one disagree.  But more I really wonder what your point of this post is?  You think that if Ray Allen was playing in those games we would have had a better record?  Is that what you are implying?

I really don't know how anyone who watched the C's last year game in game out can say that the reason we got on our run was the lack of competition.  The reason we went on the run was KG got into shape and started playing like the monster he is and AB stepped up big time and added to the clamp down / lock down def.  We were way more athletic and aggressive on both ends and we played to our potential.

So exactly what are you complaining about?

Do people even look at the boxscores. Watching the game is one thing, but when you take a look at the teams they beat, the players who performed and the record. Then compare it to the beginning of the season, you will start to see the real reason why that 20-8 was overrated.

How many days did those 20-8 games come in? No matter the competition ANY team can beat you on ANY given day! A lot of factors of last season made the teams we face harder to defeat than just the players on that team! If it had nothing to do with AB, do you think Doc would have risked Ray's ego and would he change what had been working if it was? I guess Doc and everyone else (the people who really know and not some "fan") must be lying b/c they all credit the change to AB as the catalyst for the better play... mainly b/c of his defense! Before AB moved into the starting lineup KG and PP both had already begun to play much better... we still we losing! Are "you" telling me KG and PP were playing terrible until the last 28 games? Come on now!

The Celtics played the Lakers twice. Two big games for Celtics and Celtic fans right?

The first on February 9th 2012

We lost that game 88-87 .............1 POINT

Kevin Garnett was 6-23

Paul Pierce was 7-18 , 18 points ,did contribute with 7 assists

Ray Allen was a decent 9-20, 22 points

2nd game

Allen 6-13, 17 points, 6 assists

Pierce 4-14 , 13 points

Garnett, 7-11, 14 points , 0 attempts at the FT LINE




All i know is you continue to look at these games. The real reason the Celtics were not better was because these guys either were lazy, or not in shape...

So it made Ray look a lot worse...

That 20-8 record could have easily been 20-8 or better, the way these guys finally kicked into high gear, especially Garnett...


The more and more i see , I begin to think Rondo didnt want Allen here anymore. And that was the biggest reason for Ray's crazy decision

I think Ray Allen is overrated.

He wasn't going to save our offense or drastically improve compared to Bradley's contributions. I'm sure you've taken it upon yourself like many fans to watch games the early part of the season; You would have seen Ray struggling to score in a half court offense, and having our team waste precious shot clock time to try to get him open on curls and screens.


I love Ray during fast breaks where Rondo passes to him as he trails, or when the defense isn't set and make a mistake leaving Ray wide open, but he's a liability now in a half court offense...For the Celtics anyway - we have too few that can dribble penetrate/attract help defense.

Bradley provides so much better man to man defense than Ray - That's a fact, and not really arguable. But on offense, Bradley was and is a more ideal compliment to Rondo. He can move without the ball - one of the best in the league, if you've watched the run. He's also shown flashes of a spot up shooter during the stretch. Bradley is cherished - but for good reason.

If Rondo could step up and shoot during Ray Allens running around screens , we wouldnt have to see 20 seconds wasted...

But Rondo cant shoot unless he wants too

Rondo is special but he is unique for this team

I believe he will suffer not having a shooter back there

Jason Terry is not a "shooter"

With Bradley starting and playing which celtic fans think will be around 30 minutes a game.. so yea rondo will strugle IMO

So when Ray was out injured and AB was starting in his place, was Rondo struggling? Negative.

In fact (you can go look at boxscores for this, as well) he was dominating and putting up assists like crazy. Actually, his streak for consecutive games with double figure assists - most of which came with Ray sidelined - is still active for the 12/13 season.

It helps that Pierce wasnt shooting 3-17 anymore as he was when Ray was playing well

easy to rack up assists when your guys finally make shots

While Pierce and the rest of the team's performance did have an impact, if you've watched the run we had, you could tell that the offense was running incredibly smooth. Pierce was getting the touches he wanted, instead of sharing them with Ray and his dreaded screen running.

The team has played well with Pierce on the bench too

And also when Rondo sat the bench


The screen running was too much, I agree on that because it was ran too much, but its not Rays fault, hes a good screen runner

not a lot of people can do what he does, and you will soon see that.

The main problem was ONE, Ray will not be able to drive the ball if he gets it and his man is still on him...but most of the time Ray will pass it back to Rondo who is WIDE OPEN but never shoots the [dang] ball.

Another is Rondo not taking it upon himself to do something

So what Ray is running around screens, if you see something take it

The guy just hates shooting the ball

[Smitty77]

RayAllen,

You might think that I ignored the "starters" part to get you riled as you seem to love to do to the rest of us:-))

Peace,

Smitty77

[ianboyextreme]

Dude what are you talking about. That was the time of year where we played the heat 3 times, the Spurs, the Knicks, the Clippers, the Grizlies, the Hawks, etc.. By far the most difficult stretch of the season as was mentioned by Doc and the players many times.
Your statement is eronious on all accounts.

The run started against the Washington Wizards on March 25th, check your facts.

Right, and it ended 19 games later (when the reg season ended) after we played the Heat 3 times, the Spurs, multiple playoff teams...exactly as I said. Check YOUR facts mate. Here is Avery Bradley's game log http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/4240/avery-bradley

[syfy9]

The team has played well with Pierce on the bench too

And also when Rondo sat the bench


The screen running was too much, I agree on that because it was ran too much, but its not Rays fault, hes a good screen runner

not a lot of people can do what he does, and you will soon see that.

The main problem was ONE, Ray will not be able to drive the ball if he gets it and his man is still on him...but most of the time Ray will pass it back to Rondo who is WIDE OPEN but never shoots the [dang] ball.

Another is Rondo not taking it upon himself to do something

So what Ray is running around screens, if you see something take it

The guy just hates shooting the ball

The team was better with Rondo/Pierce benched? Do you have statistical proof?

I agree with you that Rondo's shooting reluctance hurts the team, but I think Doc is most to blame. If it was up to Rondo, he wouldn't utilize Ray's screen running as often. I'm sure Doc would bench him immediately.  

Besides, I'm sure Rondo's shooting will improve next season - his playoff performance was superb and he looked very confident in his shot.

[ianboyextreme]

Do people even look at the boxscores. Watching the game is one thing, but when you take a look at the teams they beat, the players who performed and the record. Then compare it to the beginning of the season, you will start to see the real reason why that 20-8 was overrated.

In the playoffs when he was on the court we also played a lot better than without him.

That was against Hawks/76ers squads who pushed the C's to 6/7 games respectively.

I don't think it was overrated, it was a great stretch of high level play. That doesn't mean he'll be able to do it again, or for a whole season.

There are definetly numerous stats that were presented throughout the first 2 rounds of the playoffs that showed how we were like at least 10 points better than the opposition with Avery on the floor.

[European NBA fan]

The Celtics last season was a Jekyll and Hyde team. The loss against OKC (Rondo's suspension) was the turning point of the season, and it probably would have been regardless of who the starting sg was.

But we needed ubuntu at that time, people sacrificing themselves for the team. Avery did that by playing his relentless defense. He believes that he can get the team going, by doing that, and that's one of the reasons it is great to have him as a starter. That kind of energy should set the tone for the game, not come off the bench. On the other hand, we also needed someone to make buckets for our bench, and we had noone better for that role than Ray. So he made a sacrifice, too, just as KG gave up his opposition to play center. And Rondo took on the responsibility of being the floor leader, in a way he had never done before.

Maybe the invidual contributions seemed small and can't be seen in the box score, but it was a great team effort that turned last season around.

[vinnie]

Ray who?

[Army_of_One_Nation]

Would have given you a TP if the Celtics won number 18 without Bradley.

[KJR]

Efficiency in the 2012 Playoffs - Players in the Second Round or Better (i.e. double digit games)

Rondo - 3rd (behind LeBron and Durant) = 25 (pts/assists/rebounds/steals/blocks per game)

KG - 5th = 22

PP - 15th (tied) = 17

Bass

Ray - @32 = 9

So out of the 40 starters and 80-odd players on the top 8 teams, Rondo was putting up more stats per game than anyone but LeBron and Durant.  KG was right behind.  Pierce was solid (although he faded in the Miami series).  Bass was near the top half.  Ray was well down the list.

It's just one imperfect measure, and Ray was injured.  But his production was limited.

In the Philly series, they went right at him on many of the crucial plays near the end of games and he had trouble staying with their guards.

In the Miami series, he actually did a reasonable job and made a few steals.  Pierce was the defensive laggard and was repeatedly burned ... but I'm assuming his knee was much worse than he let on.

I like Ray and I wish he'd stayed.  He's extremely valuable on late-game sets.  But he needed to accept a more limited role on the Celtics as part of an 8-9 man rotation.  I think that would have been the classy thing to do.

But he chose the easier path.  LeBron and Wade will get him easier open looks by drawing his defender away from the 3 point line.  And they will also cover up on defense when he gets blown-by.

I understand his move from a basketball perspective.  But I think he made it for emotional reasons ... and I think it was a mistake.  This was a chance to grow through the adversity of a transition; instead he chose a smaller, easier role with a bunch of strangers.

[Lightskinsmurf]

Do people even look at the boxscores. Watching the game is one thing, but when you take a look at the teams they beat, the players who performed and the record. Then compare it to the beginning of the season, you will start to see the real reason why that 20-8 was overrated.

Seriously, what is your problem man. Ray is gone. You attack people who attack Ray. In multiple topics you have professed that "people on here dont know basketball" blah blah.

And then you come and start a thread attacking Ray's replacement for no reason. And if you do not think Avery's defense, athleticism, long term potential, attitude and effort are something to look forward to, why are you even on this board?

The kid can play, if you can't see his immediate value and his potential long term value - you my friend are the one who doesn't know basketball.

I truly hope you are actually Ray Allen because at this point any other explanation would is just unhealthy.

I do not attack people on this board. When i voice my opinion I truly think its fact. Partly because im a ray allen fan.

What that does is allow me to go more in depth and see things that other Celtic fans dont see because all they see is GREEN.

And all you see is RAY ALLEN so you might as well be a heat fan now. These boards are for celtics fans not ray allen fans.

[ianboyextreme]

This was per John Hollinger (pretty respected EXPERT on NBA stats):

The Celtics outscored opponents by about 15 points per 100 possessions when Bradley played. When the 19th pick in the 2010 draft sat, Boston was outscored by more than four points, for a nearly twenty-point swing. When a shoulder injury forced Bradley to the bench ten games into the playoffs, Boston lost a ton.

Waiting on a response, ever so patiently, from all you Ray Allen worshippers:-)))

Smitty77

Too many factors for me to even care about. Who did they beat? Did they blowout teams...i mean its a silly stat.

In the playoffs, Ray Allen was a decent in that category, and

in the heat series better than anybody in the starting lineup in that category


does it mean anything?

Dude that was by far the most difficult stretch of the season. We played several back to backs and a back to back to back. Miami, San Antonio, almost all playoff teams.

[Fafnir]

Just because Ray Allen left, doesn't mean you have to try desperately to tear his replacement down.

When Avery Bradley was on the court with KG as a starter our defense was the best in the NBA by a massive margin, like 87 PP100 and our offense also at its best for this team (though not as amazing).

Was he scoring all those points? Of course not, but he still had an impact on the team. That's what the game is about.

im not disrespecting Bradley

Im pointing out something about his play that I think was overrated.

I think your fandom of Ray Allen is related towards your aggressive stance on this issue.