The Bradley 20-8 Run was overrated

[rayallen1934]

Also, I have to say, that I am never one that thinks stats really tell the whole story.  I think with AB a lot gets lost on the stats.  The hustle plays, the slowing down the opposing point guards starting their offense all has an positive impact for the C's that I don't think really gets quantified very well anyways.

My view is that the C's played with more energy, effort, heart and aggressiveness when AB was starting.  Part of that comes from Bass in the lineup as well, adding further to the improved efficiency and improved athleticism.  I don't need stats to tell me what I saw.  I saw over and over how well the starting 5 of RR, AB, PP, BB, and KG played.  I don't know why anyone would infer anything else.  Look at the record.  Listen to the players comments...it was obvious.

Im not going to argue with all that. Your correct.

But the stats also prove that they were or could have been winning with Ray Allen too

But the starters didnt play half the way they played when Bradley started. And I think Ray gets blasted for that way too much.

Some aknowledge Pierces horrible play in the start of the season, or Garnett's poor play. Most dont.

If you want to credit AB for energizing them. I mean thats a good argument that I cant really say anything about.

But Ray Allen on the court was doing well above average.

[RJ87]

So to summarize this thread...

OP: "Bradley's influence on the starting line up is overrated. Go look at the boxscores! The stats don't lie!"
*Everyone shows stats that disproves OP's theory*
OP: "Stats are useless and deceiving. The stats lie!"

END THREAD.

[blink]

I completely disagree with your logic and your conclusion.  You are cherry picking stats to try to make your point, when others have already posted a mountain of stats that debunk your theory.  

No way Rondo not wanting to play with RA had anything to do with how well the team was playing as a whole.  If there is one thing RR wants to do, it is win.  He isn't going to throw games so he can get RA out of the lineup if that is what you mean.  If so, that is idiotic.  

Look if you are going to try to cherry pick stats out of the blue to support your weak position, then I feel I have just as much right to use a more RELEVANT portion of the stats that you are quoting. 

I don't believe that anyone here is saying that AB will be a hall of famer, what we all are saying is that with AB in the starting lineup they are a better team.  The stats (from your referenced website btw) prove that the best starting lineup was with BRADLEY not with RA.

You are making everyone's point against you without us even having to try.  lol.  I feel absolutely that you are just wrong and you are trying to grasp at straws to support your view.

Sorry your man got traded.  I wish RA would have stayed too.   But you can't call foul on using the 5 man stats.  They absolutely debunk your theory (myth).

I knew I should have stayed away from this thread haha.

Why don't you look at the top 5 man units, which i feel is a better way to describe all 5 players as a team

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112BOS2.HTM


The top starting 5 was Rondo-Bradley-Pierce-Bass-Garnett
at 78.5%.  

Doesn't really help your case.

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112BOS1.HTM


When Ray is on the floor, the team is winning and would be 29-16


When Bradley is on the floor, the team would be 31-29


Some of those would be skewed because some games he didnt get to contribute at all

But the point is Ray was 29-16 64% , which is better than anyone else's in the starting unit

Well Him and Bass are both at 64% Bass having a huge difference
38-21 Record


So you see that 20-8 is overrated, and this is my biggest finding of that reason

When Bass was inserted, the team looked amazing

Does it mean that Bradley was playing overwhelmingly well ? NO

Those 5 man unit stats can be all over the place

Pierce could be on the same unit as Ray and be playing like total crap, killing that stat, and Pierce was doing that in the start of the season as was Garnett.

So throw your useless stat out the window


This stat proves one thing. When Ray is on the court the Celtics are winning, as it shows with Bass.....it shows with Garnett and Pierce also

but the point is made.

My point is that its not Bradley who made the biggest difference in the record

it was Pierce , and Garnett playing better, and the addition of Bass

Those stats are proved...

When Ray is on the court the team would have won 29 games and lost 16

the times Bradley on the court they would have won 31 and lost 29

This points to one conclusion, that the team played better and helped win games

How can you not see that?

Sometimes your other players just sucked, and in Ray Allen's case, Pierce was attrocious and Garnett was very mediocre.


This doesnt mean i dont like Bradley or Bradley starting.

Im pointing out that the teams success and failure wasnt because of Allen...

It was either because of Rondo's decision not to want to play with Allen

Or Pierce and Garnetts very slow start as accustomed to there great performances when Bradley played

It doesnt mean Bradley made them play better, it meant that they finally did play better.

[blink]

I agree with this 100%.  TP.  The end...lol

So to summarize this thread...

OP: "Bradley's influence on the starting line up is overrated. Go look at the boxscores! The stats don't lie!"
*Everyone shows stats that disproves OP's theory*
OP: "Stats are useless and deceiving. The stats lie!"

END THREAD.

[rayallen1934]

So to summarize this thread...

OP: "Bradley's influence on the starting line up is overrated. Go look at the boxscores! The stats don't lie!"
*Everyone shows stats that disproves OP's theory*
OP: "Stats are useless and deceiving. The stats lie!"

END THREAD.

Buddy.

Stats are not being showed. Theyre using a 5 man unit comparison. Which is all over the place. Anybody can play better and cause that insertion of Bradley to look better too.

Did you see the other stat?

When Ray is ON THE COURT, the team would win games 29 and lose 16  , highest WIN % on the team along with Bass who was 38-21.

This means that WHEN RAY IS ON THE COURT, the TEAM IS USUALLY WINNING!

With Bradley its 31-29       .......But since the rest of the team played better that 20-8 RECORD gets looked upon

If you dont get this, than I dont know what to tell you.

[j804]

I have a serious question for you RayAllen1934.

You have professed yourself to be a Allen fan, first and foremost.  So, are you now a Miami fan and not Celtic fan?

The only reason I ask is, if you are now in fact a Miami fan, you'll need to be careful of trolling.

Fans of other teams are allowed to post here, as far as I'm aware, but usually with stricter guidelines.

But if your still a C's can, that awesome.  Just please show it a little more.

By the way, I'm obviously not a mod, so feel free to take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Why does it matter. You can tell by my posting of facts im not trolling.


Is this debate a possible heated one ? YES, because im doubting  a Celtics player. And its no popular.


Many players including Ray have been dogged on here, so this would not be the first time..and im a Ray Allen fan, not necessarily a heat fan. I hated that he left, I really do and always will.

ESPN get this man a job he should be hired for the Miami Heat Index could follow Ray around and be his Brian Windhorst

[rayallen1934]

I completely disagree with your logic and your conclusion.  You are cherry picking stats to try to make your point, when others have already posted a mountain of stats that debunk your theory.  

No way Rondo not wanting to play with RA had anything to do with how well the team was playing as a whole.  If there is one thing RR wants to do, it is win.  He isn't going to throw games so he can get RA out of the lineup if that is what you mean.  If so, that is idiotic.  

Look if you are going to try to cherry pick stats out of the blue to support your weak position, then I feel I have just as much right to use a more RELEVANT portion of the stats that you are quoting. 

I don't believe that anyone here is saying that AB will be a hall of famer, what we all are saying is that with AB in the starting lineup they are a better team.  The stats (from your referenced website btw) prove that the best starting lineup was with BRADLEY not with RA.

You are making everyone's point against you without us even having to try.  lol.  I feel absolutely that you are just wrong and you are trying to grasp at straws to support your view.

Sorry your man got traded.  I wish RA would have stayed too.   But you can't call foul on using the 5 man stats.  They absolutely debunk your theory (myth).

I knew I should have stayed away from this thread haha.

Why don't you look at the top 5 man units, which i feel is a better way to describe all 5 players as a team

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112BOS2.HTM


The top starting 5 was Rondo-Bradley-Pierce-Bass-Garnett
at 78.5%.  

Doesn't really help your case.

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112BOS1.HTM


When Ray is on the floor, the team is winning and would be 29-16


When Bradley is on the floor, the team would be 31-29


Some of those would be skewed because some games he didnt get to contribute at all

But the point is Ray was 29-16 64% , which is better than anyone else's in the starting unit

Well Him and Bass are both at 64% Bass having a huge difference
38-21 Record


So you see that 20-8 is overrated, and this is my biggest finding of that reason

When Bass was inserted, the team looked amazing

Does it mean that Bradley was playing overwhelmingly well ? NO

Those 5 man unit stats can be all over the place

Pierce could be on the same unit as Ray and be playing like total crap, killing that stat, and Pierce was doing that in the start of the season as was Garnett.

So throw your useless stat out the window


This stat proves one thing. When Ray is on the court the Celtics are winning, as it shows with Bass.....it shows with Garnett and Pierce also

but the point is made.

My point is that its not Bradley who made the biggest difference in the record

it was Pierce , and Garnett playing better, and the addition of Bass

Those stats are proved...

When Ray is on the court the team would have won 29 games and lost 16

the times Bradley on the court they would have won 31 and lost 29

This points to one conclusion, that the team played better and helped win games

How can you not see that?

Sometimes your other players just sucked, and in Ray Allen's case, Pierce was attrocious and Garnett was very mediocre.


This doesnt mean i dont like Bradley or Bradley starting.

Im pointing out that the teams success and failure wasnt because of Allen...

It was either because of Rondo's decision not to want to play with Allen

Or Pierce and Garnetts very slow start as accustomed to there great performances when Bradley played

It doesnt mean Bradley made them play better, it meant that they finally did play better.

What stat? the 5 man unit???


what if Garnett played 10 of those games and shot 25%, wouldnt this effect the other players in that statistic.

This stat isnt accurate


In fact, the stat of when a player is on the court is a pretty [dang] good statistic

So When Ray Allen is on the court, the team is 29-16

When Bass is on the court the team is 38-21


These stats are based only on when THEY ARE IN THE GAME

So if they are winning with them in and they happen to lose the game, it still means WITH THEM IN THE GAME, THEY ARE WINNING.


5 man units , are 5 man units, not one,

If you want to base BRADLEY being the REASON, then why point to 5 MAN UNIT STATS?

think about that for a second.

[18isGREATERthan72]

I didn't read this whole thread, so if this was stated already I apologize.

None of the stats or anything else matter.  Doc wanted AB to start, and Ray to come off the bench.  That should tell you how instrumental AB was to giving the Celtics life.

You can talk about KG and Pierce stepping up and all that stuff, but at the time they weren't playing well, please, name someone off the bench that could have stepped in and played better than them.  Nobody stepped up.  Ray went out injured, AB stepped in, and the team played better as a whole.  Yes, Pierce and KG played better during that run, but AB didn't play badly.  You can't put a 20-8 run solely on one player.  It was a combination of a lot of factors, and you're arguing that AB wasn't solely responsible, when nobody ever stated that AB was solely responsible in the first place.  People never stated "AB carried the team to a 20-8 run" people are saying "AB was the catalyst for everyone around him playing better" which sure enough he was, as anyone who actually watched the games would know.

[blink]

OK, this needs to end, it is getting embarrassing.

I completely disagree with your logic and your conclusion.  You are cherry picking stats to try to make your point, when others have already posted a mountain of stats that debunk your theory.  

No way Rondo not wanting to play with RA had anything to do with how well the team was playing as a whole.  If there is one thing RR wants to do, it is win.  He isn't going to throw games so he can get RA out of the lineup if that is what you mean.  If so, that is idiotic.  

Look if you are going to try to cherry pick stats out of the blue to support your weak position, then I feel I have just as much right to use a more RELEVANT portion of the stats that you are quoting. 

I don't believe that anyone here is saying that AB will be a hall of famer, what we all are saying is that with AB in the starting lineup they are a better team.  The stats (from your referenced website btw) prove that the best starting lineup was with BRADLEY not with RA.

You are making everyone's point against you without us even having to try.  lol.  I feel absolutely that you are just wrong and you are trying to grasp at straws to support your view.

Sorry your man got traded.  I wish RA would have stayed too.   But you can't call foul on using the 5 man stats.  They absolutely debunk your theory (myth).

I knew I should have stayed away from this thread haha.

Why don't you look at the top 5 man units, which i feel is a better way to describe all 5 players as a team

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112BOS2.HTM


The top starting 5 was Rondo-Bradley-Pierce-Bass-Garnett
at 78.5%.  

Doesn't really help your case.

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112BOS1.HTM


When Ray is on the floor, the team is winning and would be 29-16


When Bradley is on the floor, the team would be 31-29


Some of those would be skewed because some games he didnt get to contribute at all

But the point is Ray was 29-16 64% , which is better than anyone else's in the starting unit

Well Him and Bass are both at 64% Bass having a huge difference
38-21 Record


So you see that 20-8 is overrated, and this is my biggest finding of that reason

When Bass was inserted, the team looked amazing

Does it mean that Bradley was playing overwhelmingly well ? NO

Those 5 man unit stats can be all over the place

Pierce could be on the same unit as Ray and be playing like total crap, killing that stat, and Pierce was doing that in the start of the season as was Garnett.

So throw your useless stat out the window


This stat proves one thing. When Ray is on the court the Celtics are winning, as it shows with Bass.....it shows with Garnett and Pierce also

but the point is made.

My point is that its not Bradley who made the biggest difference in the record

it was Pierce , and Garnett playing better, and the addition of Bass

Those stats are proved...

When Ray is on the court the team would have won 29 games and lost 16

the times Bradley on the court they would have won 31 and lost 29

This points to one conclusion, that the team played better and helped win games

How can you not see that?

Sometimes your other players just sucked, and in Ray Allen's case, Pierce was attrocious and Garnett was very mediocre.


This doesnt mean i dont like Bradley or Bradley starting.

Im pointing out that the teams success and failure wasnt because of Allen...

It was either because of Rondo's decision not to want to play with Allen

Or Pierce and Garnetts very slow start as accustomed to there great performances when Bradley played

It doesnt mean Bradley made them play better, it meant that they finally did play better.

What stat? the 5 man unit???


what if Garnett played 10 of those games and shot 25%, wouldnt this effect the other players in that statistic.

This stat isnt accurate


In fact, the stat of when a player is on the court is a pretty [dang] good statistic

So When Ray Allen is on the court, the team is 29-16

When Bass is on the court the team is 38-21


These stats are based only on when THEY ARE IN THE GAME

So if they are winning with them in and they happen to lose the game, it still means WITH THEM IN THE GAME, THEY ARE WINNING.


5 man units , are 5 man units, not one,

If you want to base BRADLEY being the REASON, then why point to 5 MAN UNIT STATS?

think about that for a second.

[blink]

very well said

I didn't read this whole thread, so if this was stated already I apologize.

None of the stats or anything else matter.  Doc wanted AB to start, and Ray to come off the bench.  That should tell you how instrumental AB was to giving the Celtics life.

You can talk about KG and Pierce stepping up and all that stuff, but at the time they weren't playing well, please, name someone off the bench that could have stepped in and played better than them.  Nobody stepped up.  Ray went out injured, AB stepped in, and the team played better as a whole.  Yes, Pierce and KG played better during that run, but AB didn't play badly.  You can't put a 20-8 run solely on one player.  It was a combination of a lot of factors, and you're arguing that AB wasn't solely responsible, when nobody ever stated that AB was solely responsible in the first place.  People never stated "AB carried the team to a 20-8 run" people are saying "AB was the catalyst for everyone around him playing better" which sure enough he was, as anyone who actually watched the games would know.

[RJ87]

So to summarize this thread...

OP: "Bradley's influence on the starting line up is overrated. Go look at the boxscores! The stats don't lie!"
*Everyone shows stats that disproves OP's theory*
OP: "Stats are useless and deceiving. The stats lie!"

END THREAD.

Buddy.

Stats are not being showed. Theyre using a 5 man unit comparison. Which is all over the place. Anybody can play better and cause that insertion of Bradley to look better too.

Did you see the other stat?

When Ray is ON THE COURT, the team would win games 29 and lose 16  , highest WIN % on the team along with Bass who was 38-21.

This means that WHEN RAY IS ON THE COURT, the TEAM IS USUALLY WINNING!

With Bradley its 31-29       .......But since the rest of the team played better that 20-8 RECORD gets looked upon

If you dont get this, than I dont know what to tell you.

Buddy.

I believe that someone already posted John Hollinger's stats about AB"s influence on the defense. You completely dismissed that because it didn't validate your theory. I personally posted about Rondo's assist numbers improving and how AB's ability to cut may have influenced that. Again, it didn't support your theory and you dismissed it.

Honestly, just be gracious and admit you didn't do enough research to support your theory and you jumped to a conclusion prematurely. You urged people to look at the boxscores and stats, don't be mad because they prove you wrong.

[blink]

The only stat I really care about is W-L.  We won more with AB starting. 

I am glad our best starting 5 is back for next year.  I think we have as good a shot at making some noise in the playoffs if we stay healthy.  I hope AB gets healthy because he was a big part of our transformation after the all star game.

[GreenFaith1819]

Here is my rather exhaustive, (but I hope fair) findings.

I post this to try and prove a point. Please feel free to read the data for yourselves and critique me as you see fit. But there is NO WAY that anyone here can point to ANY ONE thing for BOS's run since the All-Star Break.

From what I see clear as day with the box scores, this was a TEAM effort. Sure - AB played well, but we had good play from Stiem, KG played out of his mind, Paul had some great games, Ray had some great games - starting and off the bench.

Peaches had a few good games, Dooling, etc, etc...

Perhaps the ONLY constant here, though, is RONDO. He seemingly played at a high clip after the ASB, for the most part.

I do see lower FG% from our opponent's backcourts during AB's starts, but - as we do with Rondo - can we attribute this to AB or our TEAM DEFENSE?

Please see stats for yourselves.

[GreenFaith1819]

BOS was 15-17 before the All-Star break. Afterwards, we went on a 3-game winning streak – which started in CLE. BOS won that game 86-83 – on Feb 28. Ray Allen lead all BOS scorers with 22 pts. AB had 6 off the bench. Brandon Bass had a solid game – 12 pts and 7 rebs. Rondo dished out 11 assists, but went 0 for 6. KG had 18 pts and 8 rebs in a solid effort.
Here is the box score:

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320228005

Next game, vs MIL in BOS, we won 102-96. Rondo has a trip-dbl, Bass and KG had big games. Ray played well. AB had 2 pts and 3 assist in 14 min.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320229002

NOTE: I’m currently trying to catalog ALL games since the All-Star break, because right now it appears as if BOS’s run started after that – not during AB’s starting in the lineup.
But let’s continue on….

Next game, vs NJ in BOS. Date is March 6. It’s BOS’s 3rd game since the All-Star break. Ray Allen sits (not sure of reason), and Peaches starts. BOS wins 3rd straight game to go above 500 at 18-17.
Rondo has 14pts and 13 assists, Paul and KG have big games, and we get a good game out of Wilcox off the bench for 14 pts and 7 rebs. AB has two pts/3 assists in 13 min.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320302002

Game 4, vs NY in BOS. Rajon Rondo has his HISTORIC game, where he puts up 18 pts, 17 rebs, 20 assists, 1 stl and 1 block in an overtime win vs NY. Paul had a great game as well, with 34 pts. Bass and KG chip in with 18 apiece. Ray returns to lineup for 12 pts. AB had 2 pts in 5 min.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320304002

[GreenFaith1819]

Game 5 since the All-Star break, vs HOU in BOS. We get a 92-97 win for our 5th straight win. We go to a record of 20-17. Paul has 30 pts, Ray had 21 and KG has 13 pts and 13 rebs. Rondo had 9 pts and 12 assists. AB had 4 pts and 1 reb in 8 min.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320306002

Next game, game 6 in PHI. It is a back-back, and we got throttled 103-71. It appears as if none of the starters played well. AB had 6 pts in 14 min. Record now stands at 20-18.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320307020


Game 7, vs Portland in BOS, BOS gets back to its winning ways – beating POR 104 to 86. Ray and Paul each go for 22pts in the lopsided win. AB has 12 pts and 5 assists in 22 min off the bench.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320309002

Game 8, vs LA in Los Angeles. BOS loses 94-97, thanks to Kobe’s play. BOS starters play well except for Paul, who goes 4 for 14. Rondo plays very well with 24 pts and 10 assists in a losing effort. AB has 4 pts and 2 rebs in 8 min.
BOS falls to 21-19. Still, at this point 6 and 2 since All-Star break ain’t bad at all.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320311013

Next game, game 9 vs GSW. BOS wins 105-103 to move to 23-19 (7-2 since All-Star break. KG and Bass have fine games, Rondo has 8 pts and 14 assists. Ray and Paul do not play particularly well. AB has 4 pts and 3 assists in 13 min. Peaches has 15 pts off the bench.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320314009