Rondo's Defense undermining team

[mkogav]

I put Perk in there because when Perk was manning the middle along with a younger quicker KG Rondo was able to get away with his gambling. Now that Perk is gone and KG is looking way old all of a sudden, he can't. (Although maybe Steimsma will give us some defensive presence again)

Did you miss the fact that Rondo and Perk only played together for a grand total of 12 games last year?

And yet, somehow, without him, Rondo was one of the KEY pieces for one of the top 2 defenses in the NBA last year?   Rondo played the third most minutes on a team that posted the most stingy defensive rating in the NBA.

Maybe you need to stop worrying about how individual players do at 'blowing past' other individual players in anecdotal incidents and take into account what actually matters:  How many points the other _team_ ends up actually scoring.

By that measure - the only defensive measure that ultimately matters - Rondo is clearly doing pretty well on defense.

What is ironic in reading this thread is how the goal posts have moved.  It started out by folks complaining about how Rondo is 'undermining the team' and 'his defense is very weak'.  Now, the thread has back-pedaled to complaining that "Well, maybe he's okay, but he's definitely not an _elite_ defender!'".

It's been entertaining, but this thread is ridiculous.

Actually, the goal posts have moved further than that.  Most seem to agree that he is an elite defender; he's just not elite enough.

Rondo runs the offense, leads the team, had to shoulder the scoring with PP was out, play 36+ min per night, and play very good defense.

BUT, he's not doing enough b/c some scrubs got hot on his watch.

Good grief.

Defense is a team concept.

Has anyone noticed that Rondo's shooting is better this season? That he has hit a couple of 3s? Or maybe that his shooting stroke is better?

Mk

[TheTruthFot18]

I agree. Rondo is too much of a gambler and always lets his man go by him in hopes of poking the ball away. I never understood why people think rondo is an elite defender. We have always gotten torched by opposing teams point guards.

Sure rondo gets his on the other end so sometimes it's a wash but I wish he would just focus on locking a guy down and staying in front of his man rather than going for the steal.

Monta ellis is a gambler as well yet he doesnt make the all defense teams. uhhh I wonder why that is?

[Celtics4ever]

Rajon killed us last night!  Not, he is argubly our best player this year or second best.

You want to rip someone on D, rip Jermaine, he made McGee and Monroe look all NBA.

Rondo is part of the solution, not the problem.

[TA9]

Dang man. Its not Rajons foul. Yes it some times..
But the if Jermaine wasnt sleeping on Defense, Monroe and McGee wouldnt have looked that good.

[BballTim]

  Ok, but the context is that you made up your claim out of whole cloth with know way of showing or really knowing that it's true, and the only available stats, small as they are, contradict your claim. Agreed?

Well, no. Some of the available stats. Another good stat, for instance, is defensive win-shares. And, Rondo's have nearly doubled every year since his 2006-2007 75 game season.

  Point guards spending much of their career getting about double the defensive win shares they had as rookies is a lot more common than you seem to realize, whether KG joins their team or not.

Another good statistic is on the court/off the court. When Rondo was on the court last season, the Celtics were only allowing 2.1 points less per 100 possessions than they were when he was off the court. Does that speak to the abilities of his backup? No, because his backup was Nate Robinson, Carlos Arroyo, and sporadically, Delonte West. (not a whole lot of West) The number speaks to the quality of the team around him.

  I'm not a big fan of these stats. Your numbers depend on how good your replacement is, what they games situation is when you're out of the game, lineups you're with and lineups your team plays against.

My claim was never that Rondo is a bad defender, but that Kevin Garnett and the evolution of Perkins allowed Rondo to achieve things and receive credit for things he would not have done on his own merit.

  I would disagree with this. Rondo's a great defender because of how he plays, not because he's a poor defender with teammates that make him look better. I would also argue that it's not the case that playing with KG/Perk causes him to receive undeserved credit. I think the opposite is true. If you don't believe me, look no further than celticsblog, where many people are loathe to give him any credit for what he does on either end of the court because of who his teammates are.

[Fafnir]

  Ok, but the context is that you made up your claim out of whole cloth with know way of showing or really knowing that it's true, and the only available stats, small as they are, contradict your claim. Agreed?

Well, no. Some of the available stats. Another good stat, for instance, is defensive win-shares. And, Rondo's have nearly doubled every year since his 2006-2007 75 game season.

  Point guards spending much of their career getting about double the defensive win shares they had as rookies is a lot more common than you seem to realize, whether KG joins their team or not.

Another good statistic is on the court/off the court. When Rondo was on the court last season, the Celtics were only allowing 2.1 points less per 100 possessions than they were when he was off the court. Does that speak to the abilities of his backup? No, because his backup was Nate Robinson, Carlos Arroyo, and sporadically, Delonte West. (not a whole lot of West) The number speaks to the quality of the team around him.

  I'm not a big fan of these stats. Your numbers depend on how good your replacement is, what they games situation is when you're out of the game, lineups you're with and lineups your team plays against.

My claim was never that Rondo is a bad defender, but that Kevin Garnett and the evolution of Perkins allowed Rondo to achieve things and receive credit for things he would not have done on his own merit.

  I would disagree with this. Rondo's a great defender because of how he plays, not because he's a poor defender with teammates that make him look better. I would also argue that it's not the case that playing with KG/Perk causes him to receive undeserved credit. I think the opposite is true. If you don't believe me, look no further than celticsblog, where many people are loathe to give him any credit for what he does on either end of the court because of who his teammates are.

Also +/- and off/on are very noisy about 6000 thousand minutes is supposedly your target sample size. (ie two years or so of data)

[BballTim]

 Ok, but the context is that you made up your claim out of whole cloth with know way of showing or really knowing that it's true, and the only available stats, small as they are, contradict your claim. Agreed?

Well, no. Some of the available stats. Another good stat, for instance, is defensive win-shares. And, Rondo's have nearly doubled every year since his 2006-2007 75 game season.

  By the way, if you consider defensive win shares to be a good stat, I'm sure you know that Rondo had more DWS in his first five years than almost any other guard in nba history had in their first 5 years, and is near the top in DWS/minute for all of the guards in their first 5 years.

  If you look at the first 5 years of guards that entered the league Rondo's year or the previous 25 years, Rondo's at the top of the DWS list. But what happens if you take out the "KG effect", even the effects of improving over time? If Rondo accrued DWS over all 5 years at the same rate he did as a rookie (without KG, obviously, or even above average defenders "protecting" him), he'd be *7th* for all guards over those 25 years, 4th for point guards. Oh, just for fun, Rondo's DWS rate as a rookie was about 75% higher than Lowry over his career, or about double Lowry's DWS rate from last year.
 

[BASS_THUMPER]

we uplifting greg...but in the post he gets ran over..

rondo is solid..

      no such thing as a  dyme* balla~


*perfect

[BballTim]

I have always said Rondo has the physical "ability" to be the best defender in the league, but gambles way too much to be labled that and has many times in the past relied on Perk and KG to a lesser degree to cover up his misses. He also does a poor job defending shooters since he likes to drift off his man trying to cheat into the passing lane and ends up getting lit up from the outside. That to me does not qualify him as being the best defender in the NBA. If he put the focus on it he could be. He just chooses to go for steals instead.

  It would be helpful if you could provide some quotes from Doc saying that he prefers to have Rondo to defend by sticking closely to his man when he doesn't have the ball and that he doesn't want Rondo to cheat into the passing lane and go for steals, disrupting the flow of the opponent's offense in the process. Because I'm guessing that Rondo' main goal on defense isn't to limit his man to the fewest points possible, but to limit the other team to the fewest points possible.

  If Doc wants him to give his man a lot of space to cheat towards Melo or Amare or LeBron or Wade or even to cut off the passing lanes then that's what he's going to do, whether people here think that leaving his man open makes him a mediocre defender or not. I think it's fairly obvious that if Doc wanted him to play defense one way and he was ignoring his responsibilities or (better yet) continually letting his man get past him on purpose in order to get more steals, he wouldn't be playing 35-40 minutes game after game, year after year.

  When people here see defenders giving Rondo space when he's on the perimeter, they recognize that it's a strategy. When they see him play others the same way, they don't see how it could be anything other than laziness and selfish play.
 

[Snakehead]

I have always said Rondo has the physical "ability" to be the best defender in the league, but gambles way too much to be labled that and has many times in the past relied on Perk and KG to a lesser degree to cover up his misses. He also does a poor job defending shooters since he likes to drift off his man trying to cheat into the passing lane and ends up getting lit up from the outside. That to me does not qualify him as being the best defender in the NBA. If he put the focus on it he could be. He just chooses to go for steals instead.

  It would be helpful if you could provide some quotes from Doc saying that he prefers to have Rondo to defend by sticking closely to his man when he doesn't have the ball and that he doesn't want Rondo to cheat into the passing lane and go for steals, disrupting the flow of the opponent's offense in the process. Because I'm guessing that Rondo' main goal on defense isn't to limit his man to the fewest points possible, but to limit the other team to the fewest points possible.

  If Doc wants him to give his man a lot of space to cheat towards Melo or Amare or LeBron or Wade or even to cut off the passing lanes then that's what he's going to do, whether people here think that leaving his man open makes him a mediocre defender or not. I think it's fairly obvious that if Doc wanted him to play defense one way and he was ignoring his responsibilities or (better yet) continually letting his man get past him on purpose in order to get more steals, he wouldn't be playing 35-40 minutes game after game, year after year.

  When people here see defenders giving Rondo space when he's on the perimeter, they recognize that it's a strategy. When they see him play others the same way, they don't see how it could be anything other than laziness and selfish play.
 

Great post Tim.

I also would add that I think how the NBA rules are constructed with the ability to body and handcheck as a defender gone, there is practically no way for you to stay in front of opposing PGs man to man.  They are just too quick.  I think that idea is overrated as far as PG defense, and what Rondo does (cheat into passing lanes, cause havoc in general on the defensive end, gameble) is totally the way to go.

[Greenbean]

I have always said Rondo has the physical "ability" to be the best defender in the league, but gambles way too much to be labled that and has many times in the past relied on Perk and KG to a lesser degree to cover up his misses. He also does a poor job defending shooters since he likes to drift off his man trying to cheat into the passing lane and ends up getting lit up from the outside. That to me does not qualify him as being the best defender in the NBA. If he put the focus on it he could be. He just chooses to go for steals instead.

  It would be helpful if you could provide some quotes from Doc saying that he prefers to have Rondo to defend by sticking closely to his man when he doesn't have the ball and that he doesn't want Rondo to cheat into the passing lane and go for steals, disrupting the flow of the opponent's offense in the process. Because I'm guessing that Rondo' main goal on defense isn't to limit his man to the fewest points possible, but to limit the other team to the fewest points possible.

  If Doc wants him to give his man a lot of space to cheat towards Melo or Amare or LeBron or Wade or even to cut off the passing lanes then that's what he's going to do, whether people here think that leaving his man open makes him a mediocre defender or not. I think it's fairly obvious that if Doc wanted him to play defense one way and he was ignoring his responsibilities or (better yet) continually letting his man get past him on purpose in order to get more steals, he wouldn't be playing 35-40 minutes game after game, year after year.

  When people here see defenders giving Rondo space when he's on the perimeter, they recognize that it's a strategy. When they see him play others the same way, they don't see how it could be anything other than laziness and selfish play.
 

I totally see what you are saying and hear you.

I just dont see Rondo's defense where he lets a guy into the lane and then goes for the back tap as a defensive strategy employed by Doc. Whe the back tap fails, good things hardly ever happen. Rondo is out of position and out of the play completely. Rondo has a great ability to stay in front of ball handlers. I also dont expect him to be able to maintain pressure on a ball handler for a whole game. However, I have never heard of letting a guy by you being a good defensive strategy. Always keep yourself between your man and the basket...


Ronod does this less than when he was younger but he should elimenate it completely IMO

[BballTim]

I have always said Rondo has the physical "ability" to be the best defender in the league, but gambles way too much to be labled that and has many times in the past relied on Perk and KG to a lesser degree to cover up his misses. He also does a poor job defending shooters since he likes to drift off his man trying to cheat into the passing lane and ends up getting lit up from the outside. That to me does not qualify him as being the best defender in the NBA. If he put the focus on it he could be. He just chooses to go for steals instead.

  It would be helpful if you could provide some quotes from Doc saying that he prefers to have Rondo to defend by sticking closely to his man when he doesn't have the ball and that he doesn't want Rondo to cheat into the passing lane and go for steals, disrupting the flow of the opponent's offense in the process. Because I'm guessing that Rondo' main goal on defense isn't to limit his man to the fewest points possible, but to limit the other team to the fewest points possible.

  If Doc wants him to give his man a lot of space to cheat towards Melo or Amare or LeBron or Wade or even to cut off the passing lanes then that's what he's going to do, whether people here think that leaving his man open makes him a mediocre defender or not. I think it's fairly obvious that if Doc wanted him to play defense one way and he was ignoring his responsibilities or (better yet) continually letting his man get past him on purpose in order to get more steals, he wouldn't be playing 35-40 minutes game after game, year after year.

  When people here see defenders giving Rondo space when he's on the perimeter, they recognize that it's a strategy. When they see him play others the same way, they don't see how it could be anything other than laziness and selfish play.
 

I totally see what you are saying and hear you.

I just dont see Rondo's defense where he lets a guy into the lane and then goes for the back tap as a defensive strategy employed by Doc. Whe the back tap fails, good things hardly ever happen. Rondo is out of position and out of the play completely. Rondo has a great ability to stay in front of ball handlers. I also dont expect him to be able to maintain pressure on a ball handler for a whole game. However, I have never heard of letting a guy by you being a good defensive strategy. Always keep yourself between your man and the basket...


Ronod does this less than when he was younger but he should elimenate it completely IMO

  Rondo's generally pretty hard to get by. A lot of point guards rarely try, they stand outside the three point line and wait for someone to set a pick and use the pick to get by Rajon. On many teams when there's a pick like that the player guarding the guy setting the pick hedges out on the dribbler to give the "picked" defender a chance to recover. With Rondo the Celts don't do this, the player guarding the guy that set the pick stay with him.

  It's close to impossible for Rondo coming off the pick to get back in front of his man, who heads directly into the lane from the pick. The only play that's available is to try and reach around the player and knock the ball loose. He does on a regular basis, maybe 20-30% of the time, which (especially considering that he generally doesn't get fouls called on the play) is a pretty incredible success rate. Off the top of my head I can't think of a player that's done it better.

  The funny thing is, when he goes through those picks, if he never attempted to knock the ball loose many people here would think he was a much better defender than they do now because they wouldn't be saying he let the player get past him on purpose in order to try and steal the ball.