Rondo's Defense undermining team

[RyNye]

And his stats from the 06-07 season, while nice, aren't going to really sway how I feel about this.

So even though someone provides statistics that demonstrate your claim is inaccurate, you are still going to stand by it? Man, the things people do around here to trash their own team.

[BudweiserCeltic]

  I agree his defense was pretty bad last night. I don't think it's realistic, especially this season, to expect Rondo to sit on the bench when he's too tired. He's going to do what he can, just like he did in the playoffs with the elbow injury.

Perhaps.  But Rondo needs to find the balance between "dominant defender" and "Yi".  That has been the most frustrating part of his game to me over the last few years, and last night was a great example.  There is no middle ground for him.  Either he is shutting guys down, and controlling the game with his defense, or it is as if he is litterally not on the floor, and they are playing 4 on 5. 

I am not sure if its just a matter of going under picks more if he won't fight through them, or if he needs to play further off if he doesn't have the gas to stay with guys.  But he really needs to stop having defensive performances like he did last night.  Mediocre defense is fine from time to time, but that was putrid...and its not the first time.

  I thought that up until his plantar fascitis kicked in his defense was terrific last year. It was also very good in the preseason and the first two games. He's going to have the occasional off game but he's very good. He's also good in a lot of areas that people don't look at because they concentrate mainly on 1v1 defense. He does a great job of denial when his man doesn't have the ball, he knocks the ball loose a lot when players he's not guarding come too close to him, he's a very good transition defender and he does a great job of keeping opponents from setting up the offense. The Knicks were frequently starting their offense with 14-15 seconds left on the shot clock when they'd ideally like to start it closer to 20 seconds or so left. It caused them issues although Melo and Amare were bailing them out by hitting difficult shots late in the shot clock.

I think its either selective memory, or you are giving too much credit to the injury.  Rondo had a decent amount of games, or stretches in games last year, just like last night.  And I find it hard to blame the injury, since they were often bookended by great defensive performances.

  Maybe it is giving too much credit to the injury, who's to say. But from the other side, I think that if you watched any other point guard in the league as critically as you watch Rondo you'd come away with poor opinions of their defense as well. Which point guards rarely have bad defensive games, or regularly do a better job of keeping their man in front of them with no help from other defenders? He had bad games at times last year but he still finished near the top in any defensive measure you can find including all defense voting. But, again, who's noticeably better?

Your question won't get answered.  I know you've asked this question before.  I certainly have as well.

Interestingly, folks who claim that Rondo is a terrible defender cannot think of a better defender at the point guard position in the league.  It seems pretty clear to me that this is because there aren't any. 

 I guess the answer is that while he's the best defender at his position in the league, he's still a terrible defender because sometimes opposing point guards get in the lane. 

 

The problem is the question is being framed to get a certain answer.

I am not questioning whether Rondo is the best starting PG defender in the league.  He probably is (although there other guys who are in the same ballpark).  The question is whether he is a GREAT defender.  And this is the question, in my mind, because he needs to be a great defender to reach his potential as a player, with his unique skillset.

And there have been great defensive PGs.  Payton obviously comes to mind.  DJ.  And these guys were great not just because they could dominate stretches with their defense, and shut guys down when they needed to, but they were also consistent. 

No one shuts everyone down every play.  But the great ones never got killed the way Rondo does when he is not "on" (and Rondo has games like that way too frequently for my taste).  They had a cruise control, just like Rondo, but their cruise was at about a B defender, with the ability to turn it up to an A+ defender.

So yeah, maybe Rondo is the best defensive starting PG right now.  But that is like being the smartest Kardashian.  It is certainly nothing to brag about, and given that it is biggest asset as a player, it is not something he should be content with.

His goal should be to be the best defensive player in the NBA (which he is nowhere near...there are 10-15 wing defenders, and a handful of big men who are better overall defenders than him), and the best PG defender in the history of the NBA.  Because that is what it is going to take for him to be as great as he could be as an overall basketball player.

Losers try to be the best of their group.  Winners try to be the best they can possibly be. 

  You're vastly underestimating the effect of the no hand checking rules on point guards. There's a reason that CP3/Deron/Rose/Westbrook are putting up such historic numbers. What happens to DJ if he has to guard Isiah Thomas without putting a hand on him? How does Payton fare against KJ? The results would probably surprise you.

But how does Rondo do it in the Heat and Knicks game, but suddenly in the Hornets game he can't get past a pick?  How come every time Rondo plays Chris Paul he is all world defensively, but when he faces Jarret Jack, he makes Steve Nash look like DJ?

Rondo has set his own standard, which is as high as any guard who has ever played the game.  But he drops so far from that standard at times that it is absolutely shocking.

The kid is inconsistent, and it is a problem.  And if they are going to build a team around him, he needs to fix that.

  Again, when you say that Rondo is inconsistent defensively, I think your standards are generally higher than any player out there's going to meet. The fact that you had to go back to a different era to come up with players that are more consistent is telling. It's the third game in 4 nights, he played 40+ minutes in both of the other two games, and carried the team to big comebacks (even if they fell short) in both games, it's not amazing that he didn't have a great game.

Don't have much to complain about Rondo this year, but let's see how he does against Rose for example. He's been disastrous guarding him, hopefully he does better in the future.

The PG position is a weird one as far as defense goes. It's a position that you rarely can play a guy meaningful minutes just because he's a good defender. As such, good defenders in the position are a rarity in the NBA, not because they don't exist, but because they don't have the offensive package or the playmaking skills to make it in the NBA. So yeah, it's hard to find better defenders in the position than Rondo which you'd rather have.

But consistency is an issue for sure for Rondo, and yes we can point to how he's played X amount of games X amount of minutes through the season, but he's suffered from the very same thing in the playoffs. At the absence of "better" more "consistent" defenders of Rondo's caliber, it doesn't dismiss his defensive problems. It simply means there's not a better defensive PG you'd rather have, but it also means that Rondo has things he needs to improve on, discipline wise more than anything.

[indeedproceed]

And his stats from the 06-07 season, while nice, aren't going to really sway how I feel about this.

So even though someone provides statistics that demonstrate your claim is inaccurate, you are still going to stand by it? Man, the things people do around here to trash their own team.

Ha, those statistics don't demonstrate my claim to be inaccurate. They could help build a case against my claim (that KG & company help pad his stats), but while defensive metrics are super-duper cool, (and I mean that whole-heartedly, I do think they're cool) one years' stats from his rookie season when he played on a tanking team and only managed 24 wins, a year in which he started less than half the games he played in, and only managed to play 24 minutes per contest, no, those stats will no sway the argument.

[BballTim]

Love when rondo gets the blame for norris cole and others going off...when hes on the bench
the rest of the teams defense has played well?
nope...point the finger elsewhere

I think that's a valid criticism. I also think its a valid criticism when people question Rondo's rep as a defensive pillar, because playing in front of KG and (until recently) Perkins etc.. has allowed him to gamble more often, and fluffed his defensive metrics a bit.

  Here's Rondo's opponent's numbers (from 82games) from last year:

16.4 fga, .450 efg%, 4.5 fta, 4 reb, 7.9 assists, 4.4 to, 18.3 points

  Here's his opponent's numbers from his rookie year, when KG wasn't on the team and Perk was struggling with injuries:

15.6 fga, .456 efg%, 5.6 fta, 5 reb, 7.5 assists, 3.9 to, 18.9 points

  Better numbers now, but not beyond what you'd expect in terms of improvement from a player from year 1-5. Doesn't look like a much stat fluffing if any. He also gambles less now than he did then.
 

He gambles less now because KG is slower and Perkins isn't here.

  He's  been gambling less the last 2-3 years.

And his stats from the 06-07 season, while nice, aren't going to really sway how I feel about this. Rajon Rondo is a good defender, and elite one even, but like Paul Pierce, like Ray Allen, and like Kendrick Perkins, because of the strong team defense, his individual defensive creds get a bit of a bump.

  No, they won't get you to change how you feel, but at least they got you to change your claim to something more nebulous.

[BballTim]

And his stats from the 06-07 season, while nice, aren't going to really sway how I feel about this.

So even though someone provides statistics that demonstrate your claim is inaccurate, you are still going to stand by it? Man, the things people do around here to trash their own team.

Ha, those statistics don't demonstrate my claim to be inaccurate. They could help build a case against my claim (that KG & company help pad his stats), but while defensive metrics are super-duper cool, (and I mean that whole-heartedly, I do think they're cool) one years' stats from his rookie season when he played on a tanking team and only managed 24 wins, a year in which he started less than half the games he played in, and only managed to play 24 minutes per contest, no, those stats will no sway the argument.

  Haha. Showing that Rondo's numbers were similar before KG came don't demonstrate your claim that playing with KG fluffs Rondo's stats to be inaccurate? I guess "seems reasonable and puts Rondo in a generally bad light" trumps statistics that seem to indicate the opposite.

[indeedproceed]

Love when rondo gets the blame for norris cole and others going off...when hes on the bench
the rest of the teams defense has played well?
nope...point the finger elsewhere

I think that's a valid criticism. I also think its a valid criticism when people question Rondo's rep as a defensive pillar, because playing in front of KG and (until recently) Perkins etc.. has allowed him to gamble more often, and fluffed his defensive metrics a bit.

  Here's Rondo's opponent's numbers (from 82games) from last year:

16.4 fga, .450 efg%, 4.5 fta, 4 reb, 7.9 assists, 4.4 to, 18.3 points

  Here's his opponent's numbers from his rookie year, when KG wasn't on the team and Perk was struggling with injuries:

15.6 fga, .456 efg%, 5.6 fta, 5 reb, 7.5 assists, 3.9 to, 18.9 points

  Better numbers now, but not beyond what you'd expect in terms of improvement from a player from year 1-5. Doesn't look like a much stat fluffing if any. He also gambles less now than he did then.
 

He gambles less now because KG is slower and Perkins isn't here.

  He's  been gambling less the last 2-3 years.

This is based on watching games I'm assuming? Because, last year was the first time I realized he was gambling less.

And his stats from the 06-07 season, while nice, aren't going to really sway how I feel about this. Rajon Rondo is a good defender, and elite one even, but like Paul Pierce, like Ray Allen, and like Kendrick Perkins, because of the strong team defense, his individual defensive creds get a bit of a bump.

  No, they won't get you to change how you feel, but at least they got you to change your claim to something more nebulous.

haha, my claim is that Rajon Rondo gets a big bump (in terms of risks he can take and mistakes that get hidden) because he plays with Kevin Garnett. That bump is almost always assigned as some kind of savant defensive ability from Rondo, when its a little of column A (his own ability), and a little of column B (the team he plays on).

I've never claimed he was anything but an excellent defender, I just don't think he's the very best out there, but is rather very near the top. I also think Rondo gets to take the credit and get the accolades for a lot of stuff that is maybe more of a group effort.

But, I guess KG can only win the All-NBA award once per year, but heaven forbid Rondo wins it and Garnett does not (as was the case in 2010)

And his stats from the 06-07 season, while nice, aren't going to really sway how I feel about this.

So even though someone provides statistics that demonstrate your claim is inaccurate, you are still going to stand by it? Man, the things people do around here to trash their own team.

Ha, those statistics don't demonstrate my claim to be inaccurate. They could help build a case against my claim (that KG & company help pad his stats), but while defensive metrics are super-duper cool, (and I mean that whole-heartedly, I do think they're cool) one years' stats from his rookie season when he played on a tanking team and only managed 24 wins, a year in which he started less than half the games he played in, and only managed to play 24 minutes per contest, no, those stats will no sway the argument.

  Haha. Showing that Rondo's numbers were similar before KG came don't demonstrate your claim that playing with KG fluffs Rondo's stats to be inaccurate? I guess "seems reasonable and puts Rondo in a generally bad light" trumps statistics that seem to indicate the opposite.

Are they similar? Or, are they better now? (kidding)

And you're using his stats from a basement team, where he started less than half the games he played in, and would logically have played against mostly reserves, and many of those games in blowouts.

What exactly does that prove? Context, Tim. Gotta have context.

[BballTim]

Love when rondo gets the blame for norris cole and others going off...when hes on the bench
the rest of the teams defense has played well?
nope...point the finger elsewhere

I think that's a valid criticism. I also think its a valid criticism when people question Rondo's rep as a defensive pillar, because playing in front of KG and (until recently) Perkins etc.. has allowed him to gamble more often, and fluffed his defensive metrics a bit.

  Here's Rondo's opponent's numbers (from 82games) from last year:

16.4 fga, .450 efg%, 4.5 fta, 4 reb, 7.9 assists, 4.4 to, 18.3 points

  Here's his opponent's numbers from his rookie year, when KG wasn't on the team and Perk was struggling with injuries:

15.6 fga, .456 efg%, 5.6 fta, 5 reb, 7.5 assists, 3.9 to, 18.9 points

  Better numbers now, but not beyond what you'd expect in terms of improvement from a player from year 1-5. Doesn't look like a much stat fluffing if any. He also gambles less now than he did then.
 

He gambles less now because KG is slower and Perkins isn't here.

  He's  been gambling less the last 2-3 years.

This is based on watching games I'm assuming? Because, last year was the first time I realized he was gambling less.

  Yes, based on observation. Just like the rest of my opinion of his defense. I don't look at stats and then decide that he's good.

And his stats from the 06-07 season, while nice, aren't going to really sway how I feel about this. Rajon Rondo is a good defender, and elite one even, but like Paul Pierce, like Ray Allen, and like Kendrick Perkins, because of the strong team defense, his individual defensive creds get a bit of a bump.

  No, they won't get you to change how you feel, but at least they got you to change your claim to something more nebulous.

haha, my claim is that Rajon Rondo gets a big bump (in terms of risks he can take and mistakes that get hidden) because he plays with Kevin Garnett. That bump is almost always assigned as some kind of savant defensive ability from Rondo, when its a little of column A (his own ability), and a little of column B (the team he plays on).

I've never claimed he was anything but an excellent defender, I just don't think he's the very best out there, but is rather very near the top. I also think Rondo gets to take the credit and get the accolades for a lot of stuff that is maybe more of a group effort.

But, I guess KG can only win the All-NBA award once per year, but heaven forbid Rondo wins it and Garnett does not (as was the case in 2010)

  I compare Rondo's defense to other point guards. I've never claimed that he's a better defender than Garnett and I doubt I've ever claimed he's as good a defender as KG.

And his stats from the 06-07 season, while nice, aren't going to really sway how I feel about this.

So even though someone provides statistics that demonstrate your claim is inaccurate, you are still going to stand by it? Man, the things people do around here to trash their own team.

Ha, those statistics don't demonstrate my claim to be inaccurate. They could help build a case against my claim (that KG & company help pad his stats), but while defensive metrics are super-duper cool, (and I mean that whole-heartedly, I do think they're cool) one years' stats from his rookie season when he played on a tanking team and only managed 24 wins, a year in which he started less than half the games he played in, and only managed to play 24 minutes per contest, no, those stats will no sway the argument.

  Haha. Showing that Rondo's numbers were similar before KG came don't demonstrate your claim that playing with KG fluffs Rondo's stats to be inaccurate? I guess "seems reasonable and puts Rondo in a generally bad light" trumps statistics that seem to indicate the opposite.

Are they similar? Or, are they better now? (kidding)

And you're using his stats from a basement team, where he started less than half the games he played in, and would logically have played against mostly reserves, and many of those games in blowouts.

What exactly does that prove? Context, Tim. Gotta have context.

  Ok, but the context is that you made up your claim out of whole cloth with know way of showing or really knowing that it's true, and the only available stats, small as they are, contradict your claim. Agreed?

[indeedproceed]

  Ok, but the context is that you made up your claim out of whole cloth with know way of showing or really knowing that it's true, and the only available stats, small as they are, contradict your claim. Agreed?

Well, no. Some of the available stats. Another good stat, for instance, is defensive win-shares. And, Rondo's have nearly doubled every year since his 2006-2007 75 game season.

Another good statistic is on the court/off the court. When Rondo was on the court last season, the Celtics were only allowing 2.1 points less per 100 possessions than they were when he was off the court. Does that speak to the abilities of his backup? No, because his backup was Nate Robinson, Carlos Arroyo, and sporadically, Delonte West. (not a whole lot of West) The number speaks to the quality of the team around him.

My claim was never that Rondo is a bad defender, but that Kevin Garnett and the evolution of Perkins allowed Rondo to achieve things and receive credit for things he would not have done on his own merit.

That does not however, mean that Rondo is not an elite defender, I just don't think he's the end-all of defensive PG's, like Durant is the best scorer in the NBA, or Howard is the best rebounder.

[KCattheStripe]

That does not however, mean that Rondo is not an elite defender, I just don't think he's the end-all of defensive PG's, like Durant is the best scorer in the NBA, or Howard is the best rebounder.

And Greg Stiemsma is the leagues best shot-blocker

[indeedproceed]

That does not however, mean that Rondo is not an elite defender, I just don't think he's the end-all of defensive PG's, like Durant is the best scorer in the NBA, or Howard is the best rebounder.

And Greg Stiemsma is the leagues best shot-blocker

He's no Andrew Bogut, but he'll do in a pinch.

[Celtics18]

  Ok, but the context is that you made up your claim out of whole cloth with know way of showing or really knowing that it's true, and the only available stats, small as they are, contradict your claim. Agreed?

Well, no. Some of the available stats. Another good stat, for instance, is defensive win-shares. And, Rondo's have nearly doubled every year since his 2006-2007 75 game season.

Another good statistic is on the court/off the court. When Rondo was on the court last season, the Celtics were only allowing 2.1 points less per 100 possessions than they were when he was off the court. Does that speak to the abilities of his backup? No, because his backup was Nate Robinson, Carlos Arroyo, and sporadically, Delonte West. (not a whole lot of West) The number speaks to the quality of the team around him.

My claim was never that Rondo is a bad defender, but that Kevin Garnett and the evolution of Perkins allowed Rondo to achieve things and receive credit for things he would not have done on his own merit.

That does not however, mean that Rondo is not an elite defender, I just don't think he's the end-all of defensive PG's, like Durant is the best scorer in the NBA, or Howard is the best rebounder.

Yet, there is no better defensive point guard in the league, right?  Doesn't that make him the best defensive point guard in the league? 

I could say, yes, Durant is the best scorer in the league, but he could and should be better at that skill.  That doesn't mean he's not the best scorer.

[indeedproceed]

Yet, there is no better defensive point guard in the league, right?  Doesn't that make him the best defensive point guard in the league? 

I could say, yes, Durant is the best scorer in the league, but he could and should be better at that skill.  That doesn't mean he's not the best scorer.

There are better defensive point guards in the league. Well, at least 1.

Personally I think it goes:

Lowry
Rondo/Paul

[Celtics18]

Yet, there is no better defensive point guard in the league, right?  Doesn't that make him the best defensive point guard in the league? 

I could say, yes, Durant is the best scorer in the league, but he could and should be better at that skill.  That doesn't mean he's not the best scorer.

There are better defensive point guards in the league. Well, at least 1.

Personally I think it goes:

Lowry
Rondo/Paul

Kyle Lowry, huh?  I guess I should be looking to see the Rockets play a little more.

[indeedproceed]

Yet, there is no better defensive point guard in the league, right?  Doesn't that make him the best defensive point guard in the league? 

I could say, yes, Durant is the best scorer in the league, but he could and should be better at that skill.  That doesn't mean he's not the best scorer.

There are better defensive point guards in the league. Well, at least 1.

Personally I think it goes:

Lowry
Rondo/Paul

Kyle Lowry, huh?  I guess I should be looking to see the Rockets play a little more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlsnYTxfkpU

He's a bad man.

[BigGovy]

So done with this site. Al the over reactionary posts and threads are driving me insane.. Good luck to all and Go Celts !