Rondo's Defense undermining team

[BballTim]

  I agree his defense was pretty bad last night. I don't think it's realistic, especially this season, to expect Rondo to sit on the bench when he's too tired. He's going to do what he can, just like he did in the playoffs with the elbow injury.

Perhaps.  But Rondo needs to find the balance between "dominant defender" and "Yi".  That has been the most frustrating part of his game to me over the last few years, and last night was a great example.  There is no middle ground for him.  Either he is shutting guys down, and controlling the game with his defense, or it is as if he is litterally not on the floor, and they are playing 4 on 5. 

I am not sure if its just a matter of going under picks more if he won't fight through them, or if he needs to play further off if he doesn't have the gas to stay with guys.  But he really needs to stop having defensive performances like he did last night.  Mediocre defense is fine from time to time, but that was putrid...and its not the first time.

  I thought that up until his plantar fascitis kicked in his defense was terrific last year. It was also very good in the preseason and the first two games. He's going to have the occasional off game but he's very good. He's also good in a lot of areas that people don't look at because they concentrate mainly on 1v1 defense. He does a great job of denial when his man doesn't have the ball, he knocks the ball loose a lot when players he's not guarding come too close to him, he's a very good transition defender and he does a great job of keeping opponents from setting up the offense. The Knicks were frequently starting their offense with 14-15 seconds left on the shot clock when they'd ideally like to start it closer to 20 seconds or so left. It caused them issues although Melo and Amare were bailing them out by hitting difficult shots late in the shot clock.

I think its either selective memory, or you are giving too much credit to the injury.  Rondo had a decent amount of games, or stretches in games last year, just like last night.  And I find it hard to blame the injury, since they were often bookended by great defensive performances.

  Maybe it is giving too much credit to the injury, who's to say. But from the other side, I think that if you watched any other point guard in the league as critically as you watch Rondo you'd come away with poor opinions of their defense as well. Which point guards rarely have bad defensive games, or regularly do a better job of keeping their man in front of them with no help from other defenders? He had bad games at times last year but he still finished near the top in any defensive measure you can find including all defense voting. But, again, who's noticeably better?

Your question won't get answered.  I know you've asked this question before.  I certainly have as well.

Interestingly, folks who claim that Rondo is a terrible defender cannot think of a better defender at the point guard position in the league.  It seems pretty clear to me that this is because there aren't any. 

 I guess the answer is that while he's the best defender at his position in the league, he's still a terrible defender because sometimes opposing point guards get in the lane. 

 

The problem is the question is being framed to get a certain answer.

I am not questioning whether Rondo is the best starting PG defender in the league.  He probably is (although there other guys who are in the same ballpark).  The question is whether he is a GREAT defender.  And this is the question, in my mind, because he needs to be a great defender to reach his potential as a player, with his unique skillset.

And there have been great defensive PGs.  Payton obviously comes to mind.  DJ.  And these guys were great not just because they could dominate stretches with their defense, and shut guys down when they needed to, but they were also consistent.  

No one shuts everyone down every play.  But the great ones never got killed the way Rondo does when he is not "on" (and Rondo has games like that way too frequently for my taste).  They had a cruise control, just like Rondo, but their cruise was at about a B defender, with the ability to turn it up to an A+ defender.

So yeah, maybe Rondo is the best defensive starting PG right now.  But that is like being the smartest Kardashian.  It is certainly nothing to brag about, and given that it is biggest asset as a player, it is not something he should be content with.

His goal should be to be the best defensive player in the NBA (which he is nowhere near...there are 10-15 wing defenders, and a handful of big men who are better overall defenders than him), and the best PG defender in the history of the NBA.  Because that is what it is going to take for him to be as great as he could be as an overall basketball player.

Losers try to be the best of their group.  Winners try to be the best they can possibly be.  

  You're vastly underestimating the effect of the no hand checking rules on point guards. There's a reason that CP3/Deron/Rose/Westbrook are putting up such historic numbers. What happens to DJ if he has to guard Isiah Thomas without putting a hand on him? How does Payton fare against KJ? The results would probably surprise you.

[EJPLAYA]

I have for years on here, as have a few others, been railing on Rondo's defense. He is an overrated defender who in the past has been able to get away with his gambling style of defense by having Perk down in the paint and good rotation by his teammates. I can't count how many times his man blows past him and someone else's man scores when they rotate to help him out. Then THEY are the ones getting blamed. Now there is no one as able to help him and so its HIS man scoring instead of someone else's.

His defense is the same as it always has been. Slacks off his man to try and get into position to steal the ball leaving us vulnerable for the open shot. Another reason that I've thought shipping Rondo off for good value was a smart move. He is the one player that many teams out there feel is better than he really is.

Why would you put Perk in this paragraph instead of KG, that is the one thing that really confuses me.

I don't agree with your assesment of his defense, but we've been down this road before.

I put Perk in there because when Perk was manning the middle along with a younger quicker KG Rondo was able to get away with his gambling. Now that Perk is gone and KG is looking way old all of a sudden, he can't. (Although maybe Steimsma will give us some defensive presence again)

Fact is that Rondo very often gets torched by mediocre point guards. He tends to step up his game against better players. Those 3 PG's we just played who weren't very good at all lit him up and he was a big reason we lost. Especially last night.

I don't hate Rondo. There are a couple parts to his game that he truly is the best in his class. Rebounding is one example. He is a very good passer as well. It's the other things that hurt us and that lessen the effects of the things he does well. If he isn't giving it 100% on defense against ALL levels of PG's then he makes it tough. Rondo CAN be the best defender in the league. Physically he is capable. Want to is another story...

[Chris]

  I agree his defense was pretty bad last night. I don't think it's realistic, especially this season, to expect Rondo to sit on the bench when he's too tired. He's going to do what he can, just like he did in the playoffs with the elbow injury.

Perhaps.  But Rondo needs to find the balance between "dominant defender" and "Yi".  That has been the most frustrating part of his game to me over the last few years, and last night was a great example.  There is no middle ground for him.  Either he is shutting guys down, and controlling the game with his defense, or it is as if he is litterally not on the floor, and they are playing 4 on 5. 

I am not sure if its just a matter of going under picks more if he won't fight through them, or if he needs to play further off if he doesn't have the gas to stay with guys.  But he really needs to stop having defensive performances like he did last night.  Mediocre defense is fine from time to time, but that was putrid...and its not the first time.

  I thought that up until his plantar fascitis kicked in his defense was terrific last year. It was also very good in the preseason and the first two games. He's going to have the occasional off game but he's very good. He's also good in a lot of areas that people don't look at because they concentrate mainly on 1v1 defense. He does a great job of denial when his man doesn't have the ball, he knocks the ball loose a lot when players he's not guarding come too close to him, he's a very good transition defender and he does a great job of keeping opponents from setting up the offense. The Knicks were frequently starting their offense with 14-15 seconds left on the shot clock when they'd ideally like to start it closer to 20 seconds or so left. It caused them issues although Melo and Amare were bailing them out by hitting difficult shots late in the shot clock.

I think its either selective memory, or you are giving too much credit to the injury.  Rondo had a decent amount of games, or stretches in games last year, just like last night.  And I find it hard to blame the injury, since they were often bookended by great defensive performances.

  Maybe it is giving too much credit to the injury, who's to say. But from the other side, I think that if you watched any other point guard in the league as critically as you watch Rondo you'd come away with poor opinions of their defense as well. Which point guards rarely have bad defensive games, or regularly do a better job of keeping their man in front of them with no help from other defenders? He had bad games at times last year but he still finished near the top in any defensive measure you can find including all defense voting. But, again, who's noticeably better?

Your question won't get answered.  I know you've asked this question before.  I certainly have as well.

Interestingly, folks who claim that Rondo is a terrible defender cannot think of a better defender at the point guard position in the league.  It seems pretty clear to me that this is because there aren't any. 

 I guess the answer is that while he's the best defender at his position in the league, he's still a terrible defender because sometimes opposing point guards get in the lane. 

 

The problem is the question is being framed to get a certain answer.

I am not questioning whether Rondo is the best starting PG defender in the league.  He probably is (although there other guys who are in the same ballpark).  The question is whether he is a GREAT defender.  And this is the question, in my mind, because he needs to be a great defender to reach his potential as a player, with his unique skillset.

And there have been great defensive PGs.  Payton obviously comes to mind.  DJ.  And these guys were great not just because they could dominate stretches with their defense, and shut guys down when they needed to, but they were also consistent.  

No one shuts everyone down every play.  But the great ones never got killed the way Rondo does when he is not "on" (and Rondo has games like that way too frequently for my taste).  They had a cruise control, just like Rondo, but their cruise was at about a B defender, with the ability to turn it up to an A+ defender.

So yeah, maybe Rondo is the best defensive starting PG right now.  But that is like being the smartest Kardashian.  It is certainly nothing to brag about, and given that it is biggest asset as a player, it is not something he should be content with.

His goal should be to be the best defensive player in the NBA (which he is nowhere near...there are 10-15 wing defenders, and a handful of big men who are better overall defenders than him), and the best PG defender in the history of the NBA.  Because that is what it is going to take for him to be as great as he could be as an overall basketball player.

Losers try to be the best of their group.  Winners try to be the best they can possibly be.  

  You're vastly underestimating the effect of the no hand checking rules on point guards. There's a reason that CP3/Deron/Rose/Westbrook are putting up such historic numbers. What happens to DJ if he has to guard Isiah Thomas without putting a hand on him? How does Payton fare against KJ? The results would probably surprise you.

But how does Rondo do it in the Heat and Knicks game, but suddenly in the Hornets game he can't get past a pick?  How come every time Rondo plays Chris Paul he is all world defensively, but when he faces Jarret Jack, he makes Steve Nash look like DJ?

Rondo has set his own standard, which is as high as any guard who has ever played the game.  But he drops so far from that standard at times that it is absolutely shocking.

The kid is inconsistent, and it is a problem.  And if they are going to build a team around him, he needs to fix that.

[BballTim]

  I agree his defense was pretty bad last night. I don't think it's realistic, especially this season, to expect Rondo to sit on the bench when he's too tired. He's going to do what he can, just like he did in the playoffs with the elbow injury.

Perhaps.  But Rondo needs to find the balance between "dominant defender" and "Yi".  That has been the most frustrating part of his game to me over the last few years, and last night was a great example.  There is no middle ground for him.  Either he is shutting guys down, and controlling the game with his defense, or it is as if he is litterally not on the floor, and they are playing 4 on 5. 

I am not sure if its just a matter of going under picks more if he won't fight through them, or if he needs to play further off if he doesn't have the gas to stay with guys.  But he really needs to stop having defensive performances like he did last night.  Mediocre defense is fine from time to time, but that was putrid...and its not the first time.

  I thought that up until his plantar fascitis kicked in his defense was terrific last year. It was also very good in the preseason and the first two games. He's going to have the occasional off game but he's very good. He's also good in a lot of areas that people don't look at because they concentrate mainly on 1v1 defense. He does a great job of denial when his man doesn't have the ball, he knocks the ball loose a lot when players he's not guarding come too close to him, he's a very good transition defender and he does a great job of keeping opponents from setting up the offense. The Knicks were frequently starting their offense with 14-15 seconds left on the shot clock when they'd ideally like to start it closer to 20 seconds or so left. It caused them issues although Melo and Amare were bailing them out by hitting difficult shots late in the shot clock.

I think its either selective memory, or you are giving too much credit to the injury.  Rondo had a decent amount of games, or stretches in games last year, just like last night.  And I find it hard to blame the injury, since they were often bookended by great defensive performances.

  Maybe it is giving too much credit to the injury, who's to say. But from the other side, I think that if you watched any other point guard in the league as critically as you watch Rondo you'd come away with poor opinions of their defense as well. Which point guards rarely have bad defensive games, or regularly do a better job of keeping their man in front of them with no help from other defenders? He had bad games at times last year but he still finished near the top in any defensive measure you can find including all defense voting. But, again, who's noticeably better?

Your question won't get answered.  I know you've asked this question before.  I certainly have as well.

Interestingly, folks who claim that Rondo is a terrible defender cannot think of a better defender at the point guard position in the league.  It seems pretty clear to me that this is because there aren't any. 

 I guess the answer is that while he's the best defender at his position in the league, he's still a terrible defender because sometimes opposing point guards get in the lane. 

 

The problem is the question is being framed to get a certain answer.

I am not questioning whether Rondo is the best starting PG defender in the league.  He probably is (although there other guys who are in the same ballpark).  The question is whether he is a GREAT defender.  And this is the question, in my mind, because he needs to be a great defender to reach his potential as a player, with his unique skillset.

And there have been great defensive PGs.  Payton obviously comes to mind.  DJ.  And these guys were great not just because they could dominate stretches with their defense, and shut guys down when they needed to, but they were also consistent.  

No one shuts everyone down every play.  But the great ones never got killed the way Rondo does when he is not "on" (and Rondo has games like that way too frequently for my taste).  They had a cruise control, just like Rondo, but their cruise was at about a B defender, with the ability to turn it up to an A+ defender.

So yeah, maybe Rondo is the best defensive starting PG right now.  But that is like being the smartest Kardashian.  It is certainly nothing to brag about, and given that it is biggest asset as a player, it is not something he should be content with.

His goal should be to be the best defensive player in the NBA (which he is nowhere near...there are 10-15 wing defenders, and a handful of big men who are better overall defenders than him), and the best PG defender in the history of the NBA.  Because that is what it is going to take for him to be as great as he could be as an overall basketball player.

Losers try to be the best of their group.  Winners try to be the best they can possibly be.  

  You're vastly underestimating the effect of the no hand checking rules on point guards. There's a reason that CP3/Deron/Rose/Westbrook are putting up such historic numbers. What happens to DJ if he has to guard Isiah Thomas without putting a hand on him? How does Payton fare against KJ? The results would probably surprise you.

But how does Rondo do it in the Heat and Knicks game, but suddenly in the Hornets game he can't get past a pick?  How come every time Rondo plays Chris Paul he is all world defensively, but when he faces Jarret Jack, he makes Steve Nash look like DJ?

Rondo has set his own standard, which is as high as any guard who has ever played the game.  But he drops so far from that standard at times that it is absolutely shocking.

The kid is inconsistent, and it is a problem.  And if they are going to build a team around him, he needs to fix that.

  Again, when you say that Rondo is inconsistent defensively, I think your standards are generally higher than any player out there's going to meet. The fact that you had to go back to a different era to come up with players that are more consistent is telling. It's the third game in 4 nights, he played 40+ minutes in both of the other two games, and carried the team to big comebacks (even if they fell short) in both games, it's not amazing that he didn't have a great game.

[birdwatcher]

Yeah, Rondo did everything in the first two games--he leads his man to help, but no help was there--he's trusting his teammates to be where they're supposed to be, can't blame him for doing his job and not trying to do too much.

[Celtics4ever]

Some here blame Rondo for unemployment and global warming I swear. 

[lightspeed5]

Some here blame Rondo for unemployment and global warming I swear. 

rondo hustles so much and he still gets hate lol

[FatjohnReturns]

Yes rondos defense plays a small part in the breakdown. The vast majority of the blame falls on the defensive schemes.

rondo has a history of gambling on defense and if you listened to the post game press conference the night he broke the steals record kg says as much.

The defensive schemes for this group are terrible. kg and jermaine do not have the footspeed anymore to play a tom thib style defense. asking them to rotate and help on penetration is not effective. It would be more effective to have the staters play zone for long stretches of the game.

If doc ever became innovative you could possibly bring in the second unit and press full court for awhile. rondo gets a pass on this one in my book. he is doing a good job so far this year.

[RJ87]

  The daily blaming Rondo threads are almost as ridiculous as the blaming Doc or blaming Ainge posts that seem to pop up in every thread.  Rondo is by far the best player on this team and the only reason we were even competitive in the first two games.  That may be a problem in and of itself because Rondo is best suited to being your 2nd or 3rd best player but it is what it is.  This is what we bought when we put the big three together.

  We got old.  It happens to everybody. 

  Honestly I have been watching these past three games feeling sorry for Rondo.  He's got to be thinking who the heck am I supposed to pass the rock to?  KG who has no lift or explosion, therefore cannot finish around the hoop at all and his jumper is flat. Paul Pierce, oh ya he's hurt.  Sasha...please.  JO....see KG.  Ray is the only reliable scorer and he's not what he once was.

  Rondo has got to be out there thinking, what happened to all of the great scorers who once surrounded me.

TP.

Rondo is the only guy who can create for himself, and he is the main guy who creates for everyone else.

[RyNye]

This is pretty pointless exercise, really. Sure, there are other PGs struggling, and sure, Rondo will get better over time. But until he does, we're going to lose.

Rondo now has to be good enough to carry the franchise on his back. Welcome to the brave new world.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you one of the people championing a Rondo for Chris Paul trade?

[scaryjerry]

Love when rondo gets the blame for norris cole and others going off...when hes on the bench
the rest of the teams defense has played well?
nope...point the finger elsewhere

[gar]

Rondo is a great player and the team does ride on him to an extent; but he cannot carry this team alone. His consistency may improve with age; but he needs to play more solid and consistent defense. This was amplified by the absence of Pierce and number of new players that we have to integrate.

Not suggesting that we should trade Rondo. Far from it, simply that our defense needs work.

[indeedproceed]

Love when rondo gets the blame for norris cole and others going off...when hes on the bench
the rest of the teams defense has played well?
nope...point the finger elsewhere

I think that's a valid criticism. I also think its a valid criticism when people question Rondo's rep as a defensive pillar, because playing in front of KG and (until recently) Perkins etc.. has allowed him to gamble more often, and fluffed his defensive metrics a bit. Defense, almost more so than offense, is a team concept.

[BballTim]

Love when rondo gets the blame for norris cole and others going off...when hes on the bench
the rest of the teams defense has played well?
nope...point the finger elsewhere

I think that's a valid criticism. I also think its a valid criticism when people question Rondo's rep as a defensive pillar, because playing in front of KG and (until recently) Perkins etc.. has allowed him to gamble more often, and fluffed his defensive metrics a bit.

  Here's Rondo's opponent's numbers (from 82games) from last year:

16.4 fga, .450 efg%, 4.5 fta, 4 reb, 7.9 assists, 4.4 to, 18.3 points

  Here's his opponent's numbers from his rookie year, when KG wasn't on the team and Perk was struggling with injuries:

15.6 fga, .456 efg%, 5.6 fta, 5 reb, 7.5 assists, 3.9 to, 18.9 points

  Better numbers now, but not beyond what you'd expect in terms of improvement from a player from year 1-5. Doesn't look like a much stat fluffing if any. He also gambles less now than he did then.
 

[indeedproceed]

Love when rondo gets the blame for norris cole and others going off...when hes on the bench
the rest of the teams defense has played well?
nope...point the finger elsewhere

I think that's a valid criticism. I also think its a valid criticism when people question Rondo's rep as a defensive pillar, because playing in front of KG and (until recently) Perkins etc.. has allowed him to gamble more often, and fluffed his defensive metrics a bit.

  Here's Rondo's opponent's numbers (from 82games) from last year:

16.4 fga, .450 efg%, 4.5 fta, 4 reb, 7.9 assists, 4.4 to, 18.3 points

  Here's his opponent's numbers from his rookie year, when KG wasn't on the team and Perk was struggling with injuries:

15.6 fga, .456 efg%, 5.6 fta, 5 reb, 7.5 assists, 3.9 to, 18.9 points

  Better numbers now, but not beyond what you'd expect in terms of improvement from a player from year 1-5. Doesn't look like a much stat fluffing if any. He also gambles less now than he did then.
 

He gambles less now because KG is slower and Perkins isn't here.

And his stats from the 06-07 season, while nice, aren't going to really sway how I feel about this. Rajon Rondo is a good defender, and elite one even, but like Paul Pierce, like Ray Allen, and like Kendrick Perkins, because of the strong team defense, his individual defensive creds get a bit of a bump.

I'm not saying he's a poor defender or anything of the sort. I think he's elite, but I don't think he's the best.