CB DRAFT FINALS THREAD: Sixers Win!!!!!!!

[Roy H.]

Something that happened in 2006 isn't going to have much of a bearing with me.  Too far removed.  Now if it was the '08 CB Draft....

Wade was in his prime then, and is in his prime now, though.  He just had a similarly dominating Finals performance in 2011.

[Roy H.]

That's not some giant conspiracy, that's predictable human nature and smart competing.

I never said it was a conspiracy, I said the refs did a terrible job and awarded him an undue advantage. Wade didn't do anything wrong, instead the refs sucked and changed the series.

I wouldn't cite that series as something he can count upon in this match up.

I don't know, it's not like superstar calls have disappeared.  Wade is still going to live at the line.  Plus, it's not like Wade was a slouch in 2011.

Heck, even taking away the 5 ppg or so that you attribute to bogus calls, Wade still had one of the best Finals performances in history.

I find the Wade criticism interesting.  Is it a backlash to him playing dirty against the Celtics, or do people really think he's not a dominant player?  The guy has had two of the top 8 statistical Finals performances in post-merger NBA history.  He shot 56.4% last year against the Celtics, one of the better defenses in modern NBA history.  What more does he have to do to convince people that he's an elite superstar?

Certainly, he's better than Amare.  That shouldn't even be a question.

[KCattheStripe]

That's not some giant conspiracy, that's predictable human nature and smart competing.

I never said it was a conspiracy, I said the refs did a terrible job and awarded him an undue advantage. Wade didn't do anything wrong, instead the refs sucked and changed the series.

I wouldn't cite that series as something he can count upon in this match up.

I wasn't claiming you did, I just have too many mavs fans for friends and it's reflex for me when making that argument to include the word conspiracy.

I think it's fine to cite 06 as an example of how well Wade plays in the finals considering he tore it up in these past finals. Just so long as you cite the fact that without a big like 2006 Shaq, you can't win.

[wdleehi]

Something that happened in 2006 isn't going to have much of a bearing with me.  Too far removed.  Now if it was the '08 CB Draft....

Wade was in his prime then, and is in his prime now, though.  He just had a similarly dominating Finals performance in 2011.

But no Shaq.  


With Shaq, win.  Without Shaq, lose.


Most dominating big man won.  



I am voting for the most dominating big man in this.  Who is it?

[KCattheStripe]

Something that happened in 2006 isn't going to have much of a bearing with me.  Too far removed.  Now if it was the '08 CB Draft....

Wade was in his prime then, and is in his prime now, though.  He just had a similarly dominating Finals performance in 2011.

But no Shaq.  


With Shaq, win.  Without Shaq, lose.


Most dominating big man won.  



I am voting for the most dominating big man in this.  Who is it?

The Voltron mix of Bogut and Amar'e is far better than the Manbearpig of DWest and Varejo.

[Fafnir]

That's not some giant conspiracy, that's predictable human nature and smart competing.

I never said it was a conspiracy, I said the refs did a terrible job and awarded him an undue advantage. Wade didn't do anything wrong, instead the refs sucked and changed the series.

I wouldn't cite that series as something he can count upon in this match up.

I don't know, it's not like superstar calls have disappeared.  Wade is still going to live at the line.  Plus, it's not like Wade was a slouch in 2011.

Heck, even taking away the 5 ppg or so that you attribute to bogus calls, Wade still had one of the best Finals performances in history.

He shot 16 FT per game in those finals, he got 8 in 2011.

He's still a great player, but he's not going to replicate those 8 extra free throws a game.

[indeedproceed]

I've maintained a few things consistently: That beer is best served cold, that Godfather II is the best film ever made, and that Kyle Lowry was a different player after the Brooks trade, and he was allowed to play big, starters minutes and run the show how he sees fit.

The thing is, though, Lowry was the starter before the Brooks trade, too.  He started 49 of 53 games before the all-star break, and averaged 12/6/4 in 33+ minutes.  I'd understand your argument if Lowry wasn't a starter, but all of a sudden he was post-trade and saw a sharp increase in minutes.  That's not what happened at all, though.

My personal guess is that Lowry just got hot for a month.  He averaged around 13 ppg in December, January, and February.  In March, he suddenly shot up to around 19 ppg, before falling back down to 13 ppg in April.

Your theory is what, that Lowry performed better after Brooks was traded because he couldn't stand looking over his shoulder?  I mean, he was already a starter, and his minutes didn't go up much, so it must have been a mental thing, right?  If that's the case, that's a clear sign of a mentally weak player, isn't it?  And if that's the case, do you truly think he's going to excel in the high-pressure environment of the NBA Finals?

My contention is that the point-guard sharing schedule between Kyle Lowry and Aaron Brooks was a toxic environment. Aaron Brooks was jealous and angry at losing his starting position, and Lowry wasn't benefiting from the Rockets forcing minutes on Brooks so they could move him.

I don't think that makes him a weak player. I think a lot of guys have struggled through similar circumstances. Uncertainty in your role and a perceived lack of confidence from your coaching staff is a big deal to some guys.

And, at this point in the Finals, Lowry has been riding that vote of confidence and those 37 minutes per game all season. And, it got me a 2nd overall seed and a trip to the Finals Roy.

So, explain that if Lowry is the player you think he is.

[Roy H.]

I am voting for the most dominating big man in this.  Who is it?

I personally think that's a simplistic way to evaluate this series.  How many years did Phoenix have the most dominating big man in Amare, yet fail to even reach the NBA Finals?  How many years did Kevin Garnett lose in the first round? 

Having the most dominant big man in a series doesn't guarantee anything.

[indeedproceed]

Something that happened in 2006 isn't going to have much of a bearing with me.  Too far removed.  Now if it was the '08 CB Draft....

Wade was in his prime then, and is in his prime now, though.  He just had a similarly dominating Finals performance in 2011.

But no Shaq.  


With Shaq, win.  Without Shaq, lose.


Most dominating big man won.  



I am voting for the most dominating big man in this.  Who is it?

Bogut/Amare by a country mile. Its not even close. Its like asking who has the better pair of swingmen.

[wdleehi]

I am voting for the most dominating big man in this.  Who is it?

I personally think that's a simplistic way to evaluate this series.  How many years did Phoenix have the most dominating big man in Amare, yet fail to even reach the NBA Finals?  How many years did Kevin Garnett lose in the first round? 

Having the most dominant big man in a series doesn't guarantee anything.

He never had Bogut next to him to play defense.  


And there is no Duncan or Shaq on the other side.  

[KCattheStripe]

I am voting for the most dominating big man in this.  Who is it?

I personally think that's a simplistic way to evaluate this series.  How many years did Phoenix have the most dominating big man in Amare, yet fail to even reach the NBA Finals?  How many years did Kevin Garnett lose in the first round? 

Having the most dominant big man in a series doesn't guarantee anything.

Was he actually better than Duncan or Dirk in those series? In 2007 he was better than Duncan but got suspended and most  people cite that for the reason they lost.

[Roy H.]

Eh...  I wonder how much people are voting the GM here, rather than the team.  There's no doubt IP is a great guy, and hey, if folks want to give him the lifetime achievement award, I'll pat him on the back and say that he deserves it.  mgent has been a bit prickly in these debates, and I understand if people don't warm up to him the same way they do a beloved member of the mod staff and this year's commissioner.  I count IP as a friend, and he put together a good team.

However, there's simply no way in my mind that a team of Varejao/West/Iggy/Wade/Hinrich/Kmart/Barbosa loses to Bogut/Amare/Delfino/Harden/Lowry/Williams/Sessions.  Philly has a better defense, much more experience, much more depth, more talent, and a better superstar.

IP is a better arguer than mgent, I think, and some might think he's a nicer guy.  I admire him greatly, and am rooting for him, despite voting against him.  However, there's simply no way his team is better.  

[Roy H.]

And with that, mgent can defend his own team.

[indeedproceed]

I am voting for the most dominating big man in this.  Who is it?

I personally think that's a simplistic way to evaluate this series.  How many years did Phoenix have the most dominating big man in Amare, yet fail to even reach the NBA Finals?  How many years did Kevin Garnett lose in the first round?  

Having the most dominant big man in a series doesn't guarantee anything.

I think that's also an equally simplistic way to look at it. How many years did Amare butt heads with one of Prime-Duncan, Shaq, or the Gasol/Bynum pairing?

I've got two elite big men.

And you keep saying that Bogut 'isn't elite', and in terms of the best 20 players in the league, I'll concede that you're right.

But in terms of centers in the NBA, Bogut is right near the top, I've got him #2, behind Howard. It depends how you see Bynum. But, my frontcourt would matchup against anyone's in the actual NBA, and absolutely annhilates this one, and that sets the tone for the entire series.

[Redz]

Eh...  I wonder how much people are voting the GM here, rather than the team.

"Not I", said the fly.  IP's wicked overrated  

I like the Sixers.  Pretty simply they have more good players (they're "more better").

They have the best player.  I like KMart off the bench to throw his weight around a bit and offset the big man advantage the Blazers have.  I just can't see Amare winning it all.  With home court advantage in the 2-3-2 Finals format, I'll go with the Sixers avenging the `77 Finals loss to the Blazers.

SIXERS in 6.