Author Topic: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)  (Read 38657 times)

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Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2011, 12:28:44 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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IP isn't talking a lot about the Bogut/Chandler matchup. Hmmmmm. Wonder why? Let's take a look shall we:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=chandty01&p2=bogutan01

Chandler 30 MPG, 9.4 PPG, 10.7 RPG, 1.0 BPG, 0.6 SPG 66.7% FG%

Bogut 35 MPG, 10.9 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 1.9 BPG, 0.2 SPG, 50% FG%

And that's with Chandler playing 5 less minutes per game than Bogut. If we did the IP Shuffle and made these PER36 stats to make his guy look better like he did with Harden then Chandler would score more points, well outrebound Bogut by about 3 a game, steal more balls, block almost as much shots and still shoot 16 percentage points higher than Bogut.


Oh that's why IP isn't talking about this matchup

In the last two years (2010-2011), though, Bogut has outperformed Chandler head-to-head fairly substantially.  All other games are from 2008 or earlier, so how much relevance do they really have?

Significant since Chandler has shown that with a quality team around him that he can perform much like he did for years. And because they played similar minutes versus each other.

I mean why did you pick three games? Why not just pick last years games?

Bogut  39 MPG, 14.5 PPG, 11 RPG, 66.7% FG%
Chandler 31 MPG, 11 PPG, 7 RPG, 80% FG%

Chandler played 31 MPG in those contests because he was being platooned with Haywood and had foul trouble in one of the games.

Once again, if the numbers are extrapolated like IP likes to do, the numbers show a very even matchup.

Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2011, 12:28:56 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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IP isn't talking a lot about the Bogut/Chandler matchup. Hmmmmm. Wonder why? Let's take a look shall we:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=chandty01&p2=bogutan01

Chandler 30 MPG, 9.4 PPG, 10.7 RPG, 1.0 BPG, 0.6 SPG 66.7% FG%

Bogut 35 MPG, 10.9 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 1.9 BPG, 0.2 SPG, 50% FG%

And that's with Chandler playing 5 less minutes per game than Bogut. If we did the IP Shuffle and made these PER36 stats to make his guy look better like he did with Harden then Chandler would score more points, well outrebound Bogut by about 3 a game, steal more balls, block almost as much shots and still shoot 16 percentage points higher than Bogut.


Oh that's why IP isn't talking about this matchup

1) Calling projected minutes 'The IP shuffle' is cute. The different between projected stats of a young guy expected to make the leap and a 29 year old guy who averaged 27 minutes per game last season, and 32 in the playoffs are different propositions.

2) If you DID project Chandler out to 35 minutes in those H2H stats, they're basically the same. Bogut takes more shots (which he would need to, playing for Milwaukee, his FGA's would drop here), his passing and overall defense would still be (to you) as good or (to me) better, and Chandler would hold a rebounding advantage.

3) However, again..lets put some context on this baby.

Tyson Chandler and Andrew Bogut have met a total of 9 times in the past 5 years. However, they met 0 times between 2008 and 2010.

In the 3 games over the past 2 years that they have played, things have gone a bit different.

Bogut: 40 MPG, 16 pts, 11 rebs, 2.3 asts, 4 blocks, 59% shooting, 2.6 turnovers
Chandler: 28 MPG, 9.7 pts, 6.7 rebs, 0 asts, 0.3 blocks, 0.3 TO's, 80% shooting on 4.3 FGA's.

But the reason why Chandler shoots so many less shots for such a higher % is because he is basically unskilled offensively. Bogut, is not. Bogut you can dump the ball to down low and he can score on Chandler, CHandler needs an open lay-up, dunk, or alley-oop to even attempt a field goal.

Bogut is better defensively, he's better at blocking shots, he's a good (but admittedly not as good) rebounder, he's more gifted in every aspect of the offensive game, and he's capable of playing bigger minutes.

So you tell me, Nick. Based on the last 2 years, why am I not talking about Bogut more? I have no idea!

You guys are so lucky work is busy.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2011, 12:32:29 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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IP isn't talking a lot about the Bogut/Chandler matchup. Hmmmmm. Wonder why? Let's take a look shall we:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=chandty01&p2=bogutan01

Chandler 30 MPG, 9.4 PPG, 10.7 RPG, 1.0 BPG, 0.6 SPG 66.7% FG%

Bogut 35 MPG, 10.9 PPG, 9.7 RPG, 1.9 BPG, 0.2 SPG, 50% FG%

And that's with Chandler playing 5 less minutes per game than Bogut. If we did the IP Shuffle and made these PER36 stats to make his guy look better like he did with Harden then Chandler would score more points, well outrebound Bogut by about 3 a game, steal more balls, block almost as much shots and still shoot 16 percentage points higher than Bogut.


Oh that's why IP isn't talking about this matchup

1) Calling projected minutes 'The IP shuffle' is cute. The different between projected stats of a young guy expected to make the leap and a 29 year old guy who averaged 27 minutes per game last season, and 32 in the playoffs are different propositions.

2) If you DID project Chandler out to 35 minutes in those H2H stats, they're basically the same. Bogut takes more shots (which he would need to, playing for Milwaukee, his FGA's would drop here), his passing and overall defense would still be (to you) as good or (to me) better, and Chandler would hold a rebounding advantage.

3) However, again..lets put some context on this baby.

Tyson Chandler and Andrew Bogut have met a total of 9 times in the past 5 years. However, they met 0 times between 2008 and 2010.

In the 3 games over the past 2 years that they have played, things have gone a bit different.

Bogut: 40 MPG, 16 pts, 11 rebs, 2.3 asts, 4 blocks, 59% shooting, 2.6 turnovers
Chandler: 28 MPG, 9.7 pts, 6.7 rebs, 0 asts, 0.3 blocks, 0.3 TO's, 80% shooting on 4.3 FGA's.

But the reason why Chandler shoots so many less shots for such a higher % is because he is basically unskilled offensively. Bogut, is not. Bogut you can dump the ball to down low and he can score on Chandler, CHandler needs an open lay-up, dunk, or alley-oop to even attempt a field goal.

Bogut is better defensively, he's better at blocking shots, he's a good (but admittedly not as good) rebounder, he's more gifted in every aspect of the offensive game, and he's capable of playing bigger minutes.

So you tell me, Nick. Based on the last 2 years, why am I not talking about Bogut more? I have no idea!

You guys are so lucky work is busy.
See above. I can cherry pick stats too. Why last three games? Why not just last years  2 games?

Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2011, 12:35:53 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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aw man Roy already pointed it out!

I've been waiting for Nick to call my on Bogut's numbers all morning!

See above. I can cherry pick stats too. Why last three games? Why not just last years  2 games?

Because last year Bogut was recovering from a gruesome elbow injury, and still matched Chandler's performance in the boxscore, let alone the fact that he's a far better player offensively.

In the last 2 years Bogut has come on as the 2nd best center in basketball. THat's my judgement. If you wanna call him third or whatever, that's up to you. But, he's better than Chandler.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2011, 12:37:40 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I mean why did you pick three games? Why not just pick last years games?

The other game was from April 2010.  That's only a little over a year ago, and is close enough in time in my mind to be relevant.



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Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2011, 12:44:06 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I mean why did you pick three games? Why not just pick last years games?

The other game was from April 2010.  That's only a little over a year ago, and is close enough in time in my mind to be relevant.


You see I find them all relevant

Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2011, 12:47:01 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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For me this is LeBron vs Amare. I don't mean they'll defend each other but they pose the best offensive threat against other teams.

LeBron will go against Delfino/Williams over Amare vs Millsap.

Everybody else are matched up well in my opinion. This'll be a close series.
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Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2011, 12:48:08 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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aw man Roy already pointed it out!

I've been waiting for Nick to call my on Bogut's numbers all morning!

See above. I can cherry pick stats too. Why last three games? Why not just last years  2 games?

Because last year Bogut was recovering from a gruesome elbow injury, and still matched Chandler's performance in the boxscore, let alone the fact that he's a far better player offensively.

In the last 2 years Bogut has come on as the 2nd best center in basketball. THat's my judgement. If you wanna call him third or whatever, that's up to you. But, he's better than Chandler.
Yup he's better than Chandler....but not by a lot. Actually, probably by very little.

And 2nd best center? Yikes...the hyperbole.

5th, 6th, 7th, definitely. 2nd...come on. Next year if Brook Lopez has a bounce back year he might not even be the 2nd best center in the Eastern Conference.

Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2011, 12:50:20 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Okay so I have to get some stuff done and won't be back until tonight.

Go get em Rondo.

Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2011, 12:52:24 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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5th, 6th, 7th, definitely. 2nd...come on. Next year if Brook Lopez has a bounce back year he might not even be the 2nd best center in the Eastern Conference.

And now you're accusing me of hyperbole? Brook Lopez? The guy can't defend a paper back and couldn't grab a rebound from Webster.

What is it margarita hour where you are or something?

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2011, 12:54:17 PM »

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Before I get into the details let me tell you what you are going to hear from our opponent.


Whoa whoa whoa...holy political conjecture copy and paste, batman!

I'm never gonna get people to raise the debt ceiling with rhetoric like that!

Havent you ever seen 8-mile?  Telling people what you are going to say is effective in rap battles and CB Drafts!

TP!!! That's exactly what I thought when I first started reading haha. Well done
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Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2011, 01:08:26 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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My 'No-Spin Zone' take on this matchup:

This is my attempt to honestly assess the series. I know I'm not impartial. I'm not pretending to be. I'm just telling you how I see it, as impartially as I can.

First off, it won't be easy for either team. LeBron James and the Kings are a well put together squad, with talented players, adequate depth, and the single greatest talent in basketball. Aside from LeBron, the Blazers have better players at every other position, although the point and the center positions, I'm sure Nick will contest. I believe my players to be better, and I've seen a lot of Chauncey Billups and a lot of Lowry last year, and a lot of Bogut and a lot of Chandler.

How my team wins:

Offense:
Kyle Lowry continues his stellar play from the first two rounds of the playoffs and is just much too fast and athletic for Billups to check and keep out of the lane. Lowry's penetration puts strain on Tyson Chandler and LeBron James's help defense, allowing Lowry to find cutters like Amare Stoudemire, Derrick Williams, and Andrew Bogut for easy buckets.

James Harden plays a 2-man game with Amare Stoudemire, attacking the weakest front-court defender (Millsap) while further pursuing Harden's advantage over Matthews, and building upon Harden's growing rep as one of the best young pick and roll ball handlers from the 2 guard.

Delfino limits LeBron's ability to help by knocking down the open 3pt shots he does have, after Lowry and Harden are forcing the defense to collapse.

Amare Stoudemire plays very well in his minutes at the 5, taking Tyson Chandler to task like he did last season, and forcing Chandler out to the perimeter, allowing Lowry/Harden/Williams more room to work.

Andrew Bogut holds a sizeable advantage over Chandler. He's managed to be a primary or secondary option against Chandler over the last 2 years and still shoot 59% (that's a heck of an accomplishment) while taking over 10FGA's a game. His deft passing will allow for lots of opportunities for my shooters when Matthews or LeBron has to help.

Defense:

Lowry dominates Chauncey Billups on defense because of Billups' new role as spot-shooter and part-time ball handler.

Carlos Delfino keeps LeBron James under 30 points for 4 or more of the possible 7 games.

Paul Millsap does not improve on his performance against Amare as a starter.

Andrew Bogut, and Amare Stoudemire are the twin towers you need when playing against LeBron. Both good help defenders, both big bodies that block shots, and will force LeBron into more passes and contested layups than he's comfortable with.

James Harden keeps Wes Matthews at his current H2H shooting %'s.

Lowry, Delfino, Harden, and Bogut's good defensive sensibilities and athleticism cut off LeBron's passing lanes, and make it harder for his passes to find paydirt.

How I could lose:

1) Paul Millsap plays like he did against Miami last season as a real threat from the post, and from the mid-range. LeBron's passes out of the post to Millsap are a lot more deadly if he's strokin his jumpers.

2) LeBron eats up Carlos Delfino on a regular basis. It'll happen once or twice anyways, but if it happens more often than it doesn't happen, I'm in a big pile of stinky LeBron.  

3) Chauncey Billups has a Renaissance series. If Billups is hitting everything over Lowry's outstretched hands and making solid passes while still allowing LeBron room to operate, its a problem. Lowry has the athleticism and strength to contest Billups on the outside, but there was a time 5 years ago where that didn't matter.

4) Derrick Williams collapses under the pressure of LeBron's All-NBA defense and the largeness of the moment.

5) Nobody on my team steps up to lead when the chips are down. They've gotten to the conference finals and that's all the pressure they can take.

Why I think I can win:

Playoff Experience Matters..but it also isn't the end of the world for me.
-My guys aren't starting from scratch here. They've already won 8 playoff games against two very talented teams. They've beaten Garnett and Pierce, they've beaten Boozer/Westbrook. They've already got some pretty serious experience.

My point is; its not like they're starting from scratch each new round. My team is building on each of the last 2 matchups, they're gelling more, coming together. You say they've got no playoff experience. I say my starters have already weathered at least 10 games and won at least 8. For Nick's team, this is not as substantial. For my team, this is critical.

-I'm kinda losing faith in LeBron as a leader. He deferred to Wade, and it likely cost them a championship. He quit on the Cavaliers during his last year there before he even got to the conference finals. He fled Cleveland so he wouldn't have to be the Alpha-Dog, and has reacted poorly to adversity all season, coming off more as a petulant child than a true leader of men. Billups is a great leader in his own right, but he could never tame Carmelo. Why is he capable of taming LeBron?

-I don't think Derrick Williams will wilt under the bright lights. He carried his team to the Elite-8, and even then he was within 2 points of advancing against a 5-seed. He's shown the ability to up his game in big moments, and he never gives up.

-I'm projecting a modest to static improvement from my guys next year, but 3 of my starting 5 players have room for great improvement next year. Lowry, Harden, and Bogut could all take a step next season up to 'the next level'. If any one of those guys improves, it changes the dynamic of this series. LeBron, Chandler, and Billups are known commodities, as is Millsap (although to be fair, Millsap might improve his defense and rebounding). Of Sacramento's starting 5, Matthews is the only real guy that might continue to improve his game next year, and considering that he's already 25 and been a starter for 2 years, he might have scratched the surface of his ceiling.

Lowry, Bogut, and Harden are all going through big changes. Bogut is coming back from a gruesome injury, Harden is moving into the top tiers of the SG position, and Lowry looks to be on the precipice of moving into the conversation of elite point guards.

If you believe that, these guys are difference makers in this series.

Could Sacramento win this series? Sure. But, LeBron only got to the Finals once without Dwyane Wade, and that was against one of the weakest Eastern Conferences in the modern era. LeBron's got a good team around him, but its built around him. I used to think that was what LeBron wanted, but as we've seen over the past 4 years, what LeBron wants is to be the yin to someone's yang, not their focal point. Frankly, I think my team is better, and I don't think LeBron can carry this one any further.

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Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2011, 01:15:29 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Also, I'd like to add that Rondo and Nick could easily do what I did just there, and have just as much credibility.

Really I think it comes down to how much you believe in the guys on each team. Both teams are likable (excepting LeBron's choking behavior ;)), exciting, with lots of talent top to bottom, and few weaknesses. Well rounded rosters, and I don't really feel like there is a bad choice, objectively speaking.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2011, 01:16:15 PM »

Offline Who

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Amare Stoudemire is not a good help defender. A few blocks does not equal good team D.

Stoudemire gets lost repeatedly on team D. He doesn't when to rotate defensively. He doesn't read the game well. Doesn't anticipate what is coming. Is frequently late in help D.

Millsap, on the other hand, is a very good team defender. The Kings frontcourt defense is much stronger than the Blazers.

Re: CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2011, 01:19:35 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Amare Stoudemire is not a good help defender. A few blocks does not equal good team D.

Stoudemire gets lost repeatedly on team D. He doesn't when to rotate defensively. He doesn't read the game well. Doesn't anticipate what is coming. Is frequently late in help D.

Millsap, on the other hand, is a very good team defender. The Kings frontcourt defense is much stronger than the Blazers.

Amare is not a good defensive anchor, I'm not sure he can't be a good team defender next to Bogut.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner