CB Draft Western Conference Finals: Kings (1) Vs Blazers (2)

[Rondo2287]

Well can we worry about Billups declining speed, poor shot selection, and degrading body?

Declining speed and athleticism - yes

Shot selection - no, Chauncey has a very good shot selection.

The number of pull up 27 footers he takes makes me disagree on this one.

Agreed.  When I think of good shot selection, Chauncey Billups certainly isn't a player that comes to mind.

The odd pull up three here and there doesn't discount how good his overall shot selection is.

It kinda does though, doesn't it? 

Actually according the stats that IP gave me earlier, Chauncey ranks 5th in the league in partially true FG% on shots of greater than 24 feet when jumping off his left foot in transition

[Fafnir]

Well can we worry about Billups declining speed, poor shot selection, and degrading body?

Declining speed and athleticism - yes

Shot selection - no, Chauncey has a very good shot selection.

The number of pull up 27 footers he takes makes me disagree on this one.

Agreed.  When I think of good shot selection, Chauncey Billups certainly isn't a player that comes to mind.

The odd pull up three here and there doesn't discount how good his overall shot selection is.

It kinda does though, doesn't it? 

I mean he's not a chucker by any means, so I don't really hold it against him as a PG (he's still quite efficient). But I don't think of it as one of his strengths.

[indeedproceed]

Myth number 1: LeBron James is going to 'destroy' Carlos Delfino
-In games where both players are starters and playing over 20 minutes per game, LeBron James is averaging 23 pts, 8.7 assists, 5.7 rebs, 5 TO's, 44.44% shooting (on 45 FGAs), and 45% from 3

Against any other player in the NBA, Delfino would've gotten 'destroyed'. But, for LeBron James, these numbers are fairly pedestrian. His 3pt shooting is up, but beyond that he's down or at his season averages across the board.

Myth # 2: Amar'e Stoudemire and Paul Millsap aren't that far apart.

When Millsap is a starter, Amare averages 60% shooting, over 9 FTA's and 89% from the line, all in less minutes than he'll play during this series (consequentially, he averaged the same # of FTA's in 9 fewer minutes than LeBron averaged in 36 minutes).

I can't say for certain how much of that time Millsap spent covering Amare, but Millsap averaged 30 minutes per game in these contests, while Amare averaged 28.

Also, for what its worth, last year with STAT playing center against Tyson Chandler, he averaged 28.5 points per game.

Myth number 3: Wes Matthews 'cancels out' James Harden

-in 7 meetings, Matthews and Harden played roughly the same amount of minutes, and that's where the similarity ended. Against 'defensive whiz' Matthews, Harden shot 48% from the field, and 35% from 3. Matthews shot 41% from the field, and 21% from 3.

Per-36, the two (who have played 166 and 175 minutes a piece in this comparison, respectively) would look like this:

Harden: 17pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 48% shooting. 11 FGA's
Matthews: 14pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 41% shooting, 12 FGA's

And that's with Matthews being the best wing scorer on his team. Harden has a clear advantage here, and unlike Wes Matthews, Harden steps it up during the playoffs.

[Donoghus]

Well can we worry about Billups declining speed, poor shot selection, and degrading body?

Declining speed and athleticism - yes

Shot selection - no, Chauncey has a very good shot selection.

The number of pull up 27 footers he takes makes me disagree on this one.

Agreed.  When I think of good shot selection, Chauncey Billups certainly isn't a player that comes to mind.

The odd pull up three here and there doesn't discount how good his overall shot selection is.

It kinda does though, doesn't it? 

Actually according the stats that IP gave me earlier, Chauncey ranks 5th in the league in partially true FG% on shots of greater than 24 feet when jumping off his left foot in transition

Oh, well that changes everything now!

[Fafnir]

I think Wes Matthews no longer being the primary wing option helps him, not hurts him.

[Who]

Well can we worry about Billups declining speed, poor shot selection, and degrading body?

Declining speed and athleticism - yes

Shot selection - no, Chauncey has a very good shot selection.

The number of pull up 27 footers he takes makes me disagree on this one.

Agreed.  When I think of good shot selection, Chauncey Billups certainly isn't a player that comes to mind.

The odd pull up three here and there doesn't discount how good his overall shot selection is.

It kinda does though, doesn't it? 

You don't have to be perfect to to very good to excellent at something.

Chauncey Billups has a TS% of around 60% for the last seven years while scoring around 18ppg over that period.

He manages to get to the foul line an astonishing 5.8 times a game on only 11 field goal attempts per contest. Which is exceptional. He takes about 5 three pointers a night and he shoots 40% on them. Again, excellence.

His ability to manufacture high percentage shots like those free throws and three pointers + focus intently on taking those shots (52.7% FTA/FGA + 45.5% 3PA/FGA) makes him one of the most efficient scorers in the league.

That to me is a very good shot selection.

[indeedproceed]

I think Wes Matthews no longer being the primary wing option helps him, not hurts him.

James Harden is still significantly better. I think the biggest room for improvement for Matthews is probably improving on his 22% from 3 despite taking 2 attempts per contest vs Harden.

[Fafnir]

I think Wes Matthews no longer being the primary wing option helps him, not hurts him.

James Harden is still significantly better. I think the biggest room for improvement for Matthews is probably improving on his 22% from 3 despite taking 2 attempts per contest vs Harden.

I agree Harden is a better player, both "now" and in terms of potential to grow in the coming season.

[Rondo2287]

I think Wes Matthews no longer being the primary wing option helps him, not hurts him.

James Harden is still significantly better. I think the biggest room for improvement for Matthews is probably improving on his 22% from 3 despite taking 2 attempts per contest vs Harden.

I agree Harden is a better player, both "now" and in terms of potential to grow in the coming season.

I think they have a different Skillset.  I think Matthews is the better player defensively right now and is still the better 3pt shooter.

[KCattheStripe]

I think Wes Matthews no longer being the primary wing option helps him, not hurts him.

James Harden is still significantly better. I think the biggest room for improvement for Matthews is probably improving on his 22% from 3 despite taking 2 attempts per contest vs Harden.

[nickagneta]

Myth number 1: LeBron James is going to 'destroy' Carlos Delfino
-In games where both players are starters and playing over 20 minutes per game, LeBron James is averaging 23 pts, 8.7 assists, 5.7 rebs, 5 TO's, 44.44% shooting (on 45 FGAs), and 45% from 3

Against any other player in the NBA, Delfino would've gotten 'destroyed'. But, for LeBron James, these numbers are fairly pedestrian. His 3pt shooting is up, but beyond that he's down or at his season averages across the board.

Myth # 2: Amar'e Stoudemire and Paul Millsap aren't that far apart.

When Millsap is a starter, Amare averages 60% shooting, over 9 FTA's and 89% from the line, all in less minutes than he'll play during this series (consequentially, he averaged the same # of FTA's in 9 fewer minutes than LeBron averaged in 36 minutes).

I can't say for certain how much of that time Millsap spent covering Amare, but Millsap averaged 30 minutes per game in these contests, while Amare averaged 28.

Also, for what its worth, last year with STAT playing center against Tyson Chandler, he averaged 28.5 points per game.

Myth number 3: Wes Matthews 'cancels out' James Harden

-in 7 meetings, Matthews and Harden played roughly the same amount of minutes, and that's where the similarity ended. Against 'defensive whiz' Matthews, Harden shot 48% from the field, and 35% from 3. Matthews shot 41% from the field, and 21% from 3.

Per-36, the two (who have played 166 and 175 minutes a piece in this comparison, respectively) would look like this:

Harden: 17pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 48% shooting. 11 FGA's
Matthews: 14pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 41% shooting, 12 FGA's

And that's with Matthews being the best wing scorer on his team. Harden has a clear advantage here, and unlike Wes Matthews, Harden steps it up during the playoffs.

Myth #1 debunked:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=delfica01

He gets destroyed because while he is on the court those minutes Carlos Delfino is doing nothing else bad guarding Lebron and doing it quite badly.

IP wants you to completely disregard any of the other stats where Delfino was a sub but even in that role Delfino was just useless against Lebron.

The one game Lebron had a "bad" game and Delfino "held" him to 14 points was a complete blowout by Cleveland over Milwaukee where Cleveland was winning by 19 at the half and cruised the rest of the way with Lebron seeing limted second half minutes.

Career head to head:

Lebron 28 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 6.8 APG, 45.6/32.9/78.3
Delfino 3 PPG, 1.9 RPG, 1.0 APG, 31.7/26.1/66.7

[nickagneta]

Myth number 1: LeBron James is going to 'destroy' Carlos Delfino
-In games where both players are starters and playing over 20 minutes per game, LeBron James is averaging 23 pts, 8.7 assists, 5.7 rebs, 5 TO's, 44.44% shooting (on 45 FGAs), and 45% from 3

Against any other player in the NBA, Delfino would've gotten 'destroyed'. But, for LeBron James, these numbers are fairly pedestrian. His 3pt shooting is up, but beyond that he's down or at his season averages across the board.

Myth # 2: Amar'e Stoudemire and Paul Millsap aren't that far apart.

When Millsap is a starter, Amare averages 60% shooting, over 9 FTA's and 89% from the line, all in less minutes than he'll play during this series (consequentially, he averaged the same # of FTA's in 9 fewer minutes than LeBron averaged in 36 minutes).

I can't say for certain how much of that time Millsap spent covering Amare, but Millsap averaged 30 minutes per game in these contests, while Amare averaged 28.

Also, for what its worth, last year with STAT playing center against Tyson Chandler, he averaged 28.5 points per game.

Myth number 3: Wes Matthews 'cancels out' James Harden

-in 7 meetings, Matthews and Harden played roughly the same amount of minutes, and that's where the similarity ended. Against 'defensive whiz' Matthews, Harden shot 48% from the field, and 35% from 3. Matthews shot 41% from the field, and 21% from 3.

Per-36, the two (who have played 166 and 175 minutes a piece in this comparison, respectively) would look like this:

Harden: 17pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 48% shooting. 11 FGA's
Matthews: 14pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 41% shooting, 12 FGA's

And that's with Matthews being the best wing scorer on his team. Harden has a clear advantage here, and unlike Wes Matthews, Harden steps it up during the playoffs.

Myth #2 Debunked:

We never said that Millsap and Amare weren't that far apart. We said, like the last series we played the PF for the Blazers will score and win that match up and that we could live with that as we are going to try to make Amare win this series on his own. here's the head to head:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=millspa01

Amare: 23.8 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 0.9 APG, 58% FG%,
Millsap 10.5 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 1.9 APG, 48% FG%

If that's what Amare does against Millsap, we can live with that because he's getting the ball and shooting, not passing it. He's being neutralized on the boards, and he's not going nuts scoring points.

[indeedproceed]

Myth number 1: LeBron James is going to 'destroy' Carlos Delfino
-In games where both players are starters and playing over 20 minutes per game, LeBron James is averaging 23 pts, 8.7 assists, 5.7 rebs, 5 TO's, 44.44% shooting (on 45 FGAs), and 45% from 3

Against any other player in the NBA, Delfino would've gotten 'destroyed'. But, for LeBron James, these numbers are fairly pedestrian. His 3pt shooting is up, but beyond that he's down or at his season averages across the board.

Myth # 2: Amar'e Stoudemire and Paul Millsap aren't that far apart.

When Millsap is a starter, Amare averages 60% shooting, over 9 FTA's and 89% from the line, all in less minutes than he'll play during this series (consequentially, he averaged the same # of FTA's in 9 fewer minutes than LeBron averaged in 36 minutes).

I can't say for certain how much of that time Millsap spent covering Amare, but Millsap averaged 30 minutes per game in these contests, while Amare averaged 28.

Also, for what its worth, last year with STAT playing center against Tyson Chandler, he averaged 28.5 points per game.

Myth number 3: Wes Matthews 'cancels out' James Harden

-in 7 meetings, Matthews and Harden played roughly the same amount of minutes, and that's where the similarity ended. Against 'defensive whiz' Matthews, Harden shot 48% from the field, and 35% from 3. Matthews shot 41% from the field, and 21% from 3.

Per-36, the two (who have played 166 and 175 minutes a piece in this comparison, respectively) would look like this:

Harden: 17pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 48% shooting. 11 FGA's
Matthews: 14pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 41% shooting, 12 FGA's

And that's with Matthews being the best wing scorer on his team. Harden has a clear advantage here, and unlike Wes Matthews, Harden steps it up during the playoffs.

Myth #1 debunked:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=delfica01

He gets destroyed because while he is on the court those minutes Carlos Delfino is doing nothing else bad guarding Lebron and doing it quite badly.

IP wants you to completely disregard any of the other stats where Delfino was a sub but even in that role Delfino was just useless against Lebron.

The one game Lebron had a "bad" game and Delfino "held" him to 14 points was a complete blowout by Cleveland over Milwaukee where Cleveland was winning by 19 at the half and cruised the rest of the way with Lebron seeing limted second half minutes.

Career head to head:

Lebron 28 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 6.8 APG, 45.6/32.9/78.3
Delfino 3 PPG, 1.9 RPG, 1.0 APG, 31.7/26.1/66.7

lol...no, what I want is a fair comparison between players, in similar roles, when actually facing each other. What you want is to list big number totals without context and pretend they tell a story.

EDIT: Also, that goes dubs for the above post too.

Millsap cannot guard Amare. 60% shooting while Millsap is a starter is the closest we can get to figuring out how well Millsap will do, and frankly, even that isn't a very good comparison. But, why waste time looking for context?

[nickagneta]

Myth number 1: LeBron James is going to 'destroy' Carlos Delfino
-In games where both players are starters and playing over 20 minutes per game, LeBron James is averaging 23 pts, 8.7 assists, 5.7 rebs, 5 TO's, 44.44% shooting (on 45 FGAs), and 45% from 3

Against any other player in the NBA, Delfino would've gotten 'destroyed'. But, for LeBron James, these numbers are fairly pedestrian. His 3pt shooting is up, but beyond that he's down or at his season averages across the board.

Myth # 2: Amar'e Stoudemire and Paul Millsap aren't that far apart.

When Millsap is a starter, Amare averages 60% shooting, over 9 FTA's and 89% from the line, all in less minutes than he'll play during this series (consequentially, he averaged the same # of FTA's in 9 fewer minutes than LeBron averaged in 36 minutes).

I can't say for certain how much of that time Millsap spent covering Amare, but Millsap averaged 30 minutes per game in these contests, while Amare averaged 28.

Also, for what its worth, last year with STAT playing center against Tyson Chandler, he averaged 28.5 points per game.

Myth number 3: Wes Matthews 'cancels out' James Harden

-in 7 meetings, Matthews and Harden played roughly the same amount of minutes, and that's where the similarity ended. Against 'defensive whiz' Matthews, Harden shot 48% from the field, and 35% from 3. Matthews shot 41% from the field, and 21% from 3.

Per-36, the two (who have played 166 and 175 minutes a piece in this comparison, respectively) would look like this:

Harden: 17pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 48% shooting. 11 FGA's
Matthews: 14pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 41% shooting, 12 FGA's

And that's with Matthews being the best wing scorer on his team. Harden has a clear advantage here, and unlike Wes Matthews, Harden steps it up during the playoffs.

Myth #3 Debunked:
 They cancel each other out. In 7 meetings they have played relatively the same amount of minutes against each other and scored relatively the same amount of points, had the same amount of rebounds and had the same amount of assists

Look for yourself:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=matthwe02&p2=hardeja01

If IP wants to push this out to 36 MPG production to show a whole 3 point scoring advantage from his starting SG spot, well, we can live with that. If he feels a 3 point scoring advantage in 36 minutes with equal rebounds and assists and Matthews having about a steal more per game average over those 36 minutes makes harden significantly a better matchup, then the Blazers are in big trouble.

[nickagneta]

Myth number 1: LeBron James is going to 'destroy' Carlos Delfino
-In games where both players are starters and playing over 20 minutes per game, LeBron James is averaging 23 pts, 8.7 assists, 5.7 rebs, 5 TO's, 44.44% shooting (on 45 FGAs), and 45% from 3

Against any other player in the NBA, Delfino would've gotten 'destroyed'. But, for LeBron James, these numbers are fairly pedestrian. His 3pt shooting is up, but beyond that he's down or at his season averages across the board.

Myth # 2: Amar'e Stoudemire and Paul Millsap aren't that far apart.

When Millsap is a starter, Amare averages 60% shooting, over 9 FTA's and 89% from the line, all in less minutes than he'll play during this series (consequentially, he averaged the same # of FTA's in 9 fewer minutes than LeBron averaged in 36 minutes).

I can't say for certain how much of that time Millsap spent covering Amare, but Millsap averaged 30 minutes per game in these contests, while Amare averaged 28.

Also, for what its worth, last year with STAT playing center against Tyson Chandler, he averaged 28.5 points per game.

Myth number 3: Wes Matthews 'cancels out' James Harden

-in 7 meetings, Matthews and Harden played roughly the same amount of minutes, and that's where the similarity ended. Against 'defensive whiz' Matthews, Harden shot 48% from the field, and 35% from 3. Matthews shot 41% from the field, and 21% from 3.

Per-36, the two (who have played 166 and 175 minutes a piece in this comparison, respectively) would look like this:

Harden: 17pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 48% shooting. 11 FGA's
Matthews: 14pts, 3 rebs, 2 asts, 41% shooting, 12 FGA's

And that's with Matthews being the best wing scorer on his team. Harden has a clear advantage here, and unlike Wes Matthews, Harden steps it up during the playoffs.

Myth #1 debunked:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=delfica01

He gets destroyed because while he is on the court those minutes Carlos Delfino is doing nothing else bad guarding Lebron and doing it quite badly.

IP wants you to completely disregard any of the other stats where Delfino was a sub but even in that role Delfino was just useless against Lebron.

The one game Lebron had a "bad" game and Delfino "held" him to 14 points was a complete blowout by Cleveland over Milwaukee where Cleveland was winning by 19 at the half and cruised the rest of the way with Lebron seeing limted second half minutes.

Career head to head:

Lebron 28 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 6.8 APG, 45.6/32.9/78.3
Delfino 3 PPG, 1.9 RPG, 1.0 APG, 31.7/26.1/66.7

lol...no, what I want is a fair comparison between players, in similar roles, when actually facing each other. What you want is to list big number totals without context and pretend they tell a story.

EDIT: Also, that goes dubs for the above post too.

Millsap cannot guard Amare. 60% shooting while Millsap is a starter is the closest we can get to figuring out how well Millsap will do, and frankly, even that isn't a very good comparison. But, why waste time looking for context?

And what you want to do is limit the scope to games that are to your advantage while completely ignoring the entire statistical history of the players playing against each other.

Just because Amare shoots 60% against in a handful of games you picked doesn't mean that he is taking the necessary amount of shots he needs to to dominate the game and turn it to the Blazers. he averages only 24 PPG while shooting 58% versus Millsap. Millsap neutralizes him on the boards and that with us including lower rebounding game while he was a sub.

It works both ways.