2011 CelticsBlog Draft Board

[wdleehi]

I see quite a few defensive liabilities already picked in the first round, if that's what we're going on here. Seems to me that most people have opted for offeensive strength in the first round, (with a couple of exceptions), so why is Love held to a different standard? I wanted a big man and offense with my first pick ... Kevin fit the bill perfectly.

Well there is a difference between what you mean by defensive liabilities, and what you mean by dominance.

My own pick, Amar'e, is weak defensively, in that its the worst part of his game. But not everyone is 'weak defensively' equally. Amar'e for instance is a pretty poor defensive anchor, but he's not bad on his man, and a good shotblocker. In that regard he's more than an adequate defender, especially if you look at his performance on the offensive end as a counterweight.

But Kevin Love is not on the same defensive level as those guys. While his rebounding is top natch and his shooting makes him a versatile offensive piece, his size and athleticism limits how much he can bother shots.

Hey Bahku, careful, live rounds!

Overall Defense
0.88 PPP Rank 184 Kevin Love
0.96 PPP Rank 351 Amare Stoudemire

Post Up Defense
0.87 PPP Rank 127 Kevin Love
0.90 PPP Rank 153 Amare Stoudemire

Pick and Roll Defense vs Roll Man
0.74 PPP Rank 22 Kevin Love
0.96 PPP Rank 63 Amare Stoudemire

Spot Up Defense
0.92 PPP Rank 110 Kevin Love
1.12 PPP Rank 204 Amare Stoudemire

Thanks for the ammo, TW2 ... apparently such stats, (and the ones I provided below), don't seem to carry much weight, though, cuz he's just "not dominant" and on a losing team. I've also been perusing some ranking sites and fantasy sites since making my pick, (to see if i was indeed making such a big mistake), which have him ranked even higher than I had him, (ie: Real GM at 3rd overall, behind James and Howard, many in the top ten, though that's a stretch, IMO). I still find him legitimate at #19 ... very much so.




> Love is the only player to ever average 20+ppg, 15+rpg and shoot over 85% from FT line.
  
> Love is the first player in NBA history to average 12+ rebounds per game and shoot 40% from three. Likewise, he's the only player to average 20+ppg, 15+rpg and shoot over 40% from three.


> At 4.5 offensive rebounds per game this season, Love is also the first player in history to average 3+ offensive boards per game while shooting 40% from behind from three.


> Love finished 2nd to Dwight Howard in total double-doubles with 64 (Howard had 66, Love did miss a few games to finish the season) after tallying 65 total over his first two seasons combined.


> Love had 51 double-doubles before the All-Star break this season - the most in NBA history. Only one other player has posted 50 double-doubles prior to the All-Star break (George Mikan, 50 in 1950).


> Love added 17 rebounds and five three-pointers to his career-high 43 points at Denver, marking the first time in NBA history that a player had 40/15 with at least five threes in a regulation-length game.


> Love posted three consecutive 20/20 games from Mar. 4-7, becoming the first player with three straight 20/20 games since Kevin Willis (Nov. 20-23, 1991).


> Love had four games this season with 30+ points and 20+ rebounds. There were only three such games in the NBA in 2010, and only two others in 2011 (Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard).


> Love had two 30/20 games during November this season. Only four players in the last 25 years have posted multiple 30/20 games in the same month - Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon and Shaquille O'Neal are the others.


> Love is the only player in the league this season to rank among the league's 10 biggest jumps in points per game and rebounds per game compared to last season. Love also ranks among the league's most improved three-point shooters.




Can't dominate? Come on.

17 wins.

[nickagneta]

Still in chat. Having a great conversation with myself right now.

Yes I am answering my own questions, that doesn't make me crazy. Just bored for lack of trade talk.

[nickagneta]

Big winners after round 1.

Utah, Cleveland, Dallas, and Sacramento, of course.(Cheap plug)

Big Losers after round 1.

None.

Need to prove a little something, and sure they all will.

Jersey, Detroit, Los Angeles, Miami, Phoenix, Atlanta.

Respect Jersey's stance to take the guy they like over the guys they don't. We will see how that works out.

Not sure about trading out of the first round unless LA and Detroit can grab another 2nd rounder each. In a draft with less teams, the teams drafting high in the 1st are still getting quality in the 2nd and 3rd. That needs to be made up and I think they can do it.

Miami taking Love has taken heat but if teamed with the right big defensive center and PG watch out.

Miami and Manu is interesting but Miami needs to keep the rest of that lineup injury history free or else. Healthy, Manu is top 15 in the NBA. But.....

Atlanta has the best defensive PG in the league. Will the injury and the need to surround him with great shooters hurt? We will see.

[StartOrien]

Still in chat. Having a great conversation with myself right now.

Yes I am answering my own questions, that doesn't make me crazy. Just bored for lack of trade talk.

does feel like I've got a record low in trade offers thus far. I have a feeling that'll all change tomorrow.

[wdleehi]

Still in chat. Having a great conversation with myself right now.

Yes I am answering my own questions, that doesn't make me crazy. Just bored for lack of trade talk.

does feel like I've got a record low in trade offers thus far. I have a feeling that'll all change tomorrow.

You too?

[Bahku]

I see quite a few defensive liabilities already picked in the first round, if that's what we're going on here. Seems to me that most people have opted for offeensive strength in the first round, (with a couple of exceptions), so why is Love held to a different standard? I wanted a big man and offense with my first pick ... Kevin fit the bill perfectly.

Well there is a difference between what you mean by defensive liabilities, and what you mean by dominance.

My own pick, Amar'e, is weak defensively, in that its the worst part of his game. But not everyone is 'weak defensively' equally. Amar'e for instance is a pretty poor defensive anchor, but he's not bad on his man, and a good shotblocker. In that regard he's more than an adequate defender, especially if you look at his performance on the offensive end as a counterweight.

But Kevin Love is not on the same defensive level as those guys. While his rebounding is top natch and his shooting makes him a versatile offensive piece, his size and athleticism limits how much he can bother shots.

Hey Bahku, careful, live rounds!

Overall Defense
0.88 PPP Rank 184 Kevin Love
0.96 PPP Rank 351 Amare Stoudemire

Post Up Defense
0.87 PPP Rank 127 Kevin Love
0.90 PPP Rank 153 Amare Stoudemire

Pick and Roll Defense vs Roll Man
0.74 PPP Rank 22 Kevin Love
0.96 PPP Rank 63 Amare Stoudemire

Spot Up Defense
0.92 PPP Rank 110 Kevin Love
1.12 PPP Rank 204 Amare Stoudemire

Thanks for the ammo, TW2 ... apparently such stats, (and the ones I provided below), don't seem to carry much weight, though, cuz he's just "not dominant" and on a losing team. I've also been perusing some ranking sites and fantasy sites since making my pick, (to see if i was indeed making such a big mistake), which have him ranked even higher than I had him, (ie: Real GM at 3rd overall, behind James and Howard, many in the top ten, though that's a stretch, IMO). I still find him legitimate at #19 ... very much so.




> Love is the only player to ever average 20+ppg, 15+rpg and shoot over 85% from FT line.
 
> Love is the first player in NBA history to average 12+ rebounds per game and shoot 40% from three. Likewise, he's the only player to average 20+ppg, 15+rpg and shoot over 40% from three.


> At 4.5 offensive rebounds per game this season, Love is also the first player in history to average 3+ offensive boards per game while shooting 40% from behind from three.


> Love finished 2nd to Dwight Howard in total double-doubles with 64 (Howard had 66, Love did miss a few games to finish the season) after tallying 65 total over his first two seasons combined.


> Love had 51 double-doubles before the All-Star break this season - the most in NBA history. Only one other player has posted 50 double-doubles prior to the All-Star break (George Mikan, 50 in 1950).


> Love added 17 rebounds and five three-pointers to his career-high 43 points at Denver, marking the first time in NBA history that a player had 40/15 with at least five threes in a regulation-length game.


> Love posted three consecutive 20/20 games from Mar. 4-7, becoming the first player with three straight 20/20 games since Kevin Willis (Nov. 20-23, 1991).


> Love had four games this season with 30+ points and 20+ rebounds. There were only three such games in the NBA in 2010, and only two others in 2011 (Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard).


> Love had two 30/20 games during November this season. Only four players in the last 25 years have posted multiple 30/20 games in the same month - Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon and Shaquille O'Neal are the others.


> Love is the only player in the league this season to rank among the league's 10 biggest jumps in points per game and rebounds per game compared to last season. Love also ranks among the league's most improved three-point shooters.




Can't dominate? Come on.

17 wins.

Huge oversimplification. To throw out all those stats and achievements and judge him solely on his team's record? You just trashed a lot of great players throughout the history of the game ... and maybe should watch this kid play a bit more closely.

[StartOrien]

Still in chat. Having a great conversation with myself right now.

Yes I am answering my own questions, that doesn't make me crazy. Just bored for lack of trade talk.

does feel like I've got a record low in trade offers thus far. I have a feeling that'll all change tomorrow.

You too?

Ya. Last year anytime I put something 'on the block' I'd get blasted w/ pm's, now not so much.

Again, I think its the 24 people, and I can't same I blame people. I thought if you weren't picking in the first 5 the place to be was late teens and on.

[StartOrien]

Should Paul Pierce not been drafted because he played on a Celtics team that won less than 20 games?

[wdleehi]

I will say it again,


I think Love is a good player.



He has skills every team wants.


He could be a star.



But for all the stats he hung, the team won 17 games.  


A lot of guys have hung big stats when they were on really bad teams to become bit players on good teams.  I think Love is better then that, but I still compare him to another PF everyone was in love with before he went to a team with offensive fire power.  (not saying names.  Will make the actual comparison when player X is selected.)

[wdleehi]

Should Paul Pierce not been drafted because he played on a Celtics team that won less than 20 games?

How many games had he missed?


What was his track record before that?   



The only history we have with Love is losing.  The most wins he ever had was when the other PF on his team played like an all-star and he had good 2nd star type numbers.  But even then, the team was terrible.



So, before throwing out terms like "dominate", his team actually has to do something. 

[StartOrien]

I will say it again,


I think Love is a good player.



He has skills every team wants.


He could be a star.



But for all the stats he hung, the team won 17 games.  


A lot of guys have hung big stats when they were on really bad teams to become bit players on good teams.  I think Love is better then that, but I still compare him to another PF everyone was in love with before he went to a team with offensive fire power.  (not saying names.  Will make the actual comparison when player X is selected.)

I agree with your assesment of Love, I just don't think its fair to pin the record on him. Outside of a handful of players, I don't think anyone is improving that Minnesota squad by more than 5 wins.

[wdleehi]

I will say it again,


I think Love is a good player.



He has skills every team wants.


He could be a star.



But for all the stats he hung, the team won 17 games.  


A lot of guys have hung big stats when they were on really bad teams to become bit players on good teams.  I think Love is better then that, but I still compare him to another PF everyone was in love with before he went to a team with offensive fire power.  (not saying names.  Will make the actual comparison when player X is selected.)

I agree with your assesment of Love, I just don't think its fair to pin the record on him. Outside of a handful of players, I don't think anyone is improving that Minnesota squad by more than 5 wins.

I don't pin it on him. 


I just don't agree with "dominate" player

[StartOrien]

I don't pin it on him.


I just don't agree with "dominate" player

Dominate is definitely not an accurate assessment. But I don't know how many guys selected after him I'd consider 'dominant.'

[nickagneta]

You know, I don't remember picks getting as much heat after the first round as much as Bahku is getting for Love

Last year

Rondo 9th?
The guy after him at 10th?
A second year guard in the teens later on?
Rookies in the first round many years?
Other players I can't mention from 2010?

Come on.

So he said dominant. Love is a solid pick there as was all of the first round.

[StartOrien]

You know, I don't remember picks getting as much heat after the first round as much as Bahku is getting for Love

Last year

Rondo 9th?
The guy after him at 10th?
A second year guard in the teens later on?
Rookies in the first round many years?
Other players I can't mention from 2010?

Come on.

So he said dominant. Love is a solid pick there as was all of the first round.

I think there's something about Love that's interesting to discuss because I think he's one of those guys that everyone has a completely different opinion of.