Does this year's playoffs show that Rondo is (at least) on par with Rose?

[BballTim]

This discussion seems all over the place, with inappropriate uses of statistics everywhere, and I don't even know what to respond to...

But to answer the OP, no, I don't think so at all.

I think it's pretty clear without getting into fancy stats like DWS, etc.  Let's just that the two players' defense are roughly equal (even though I think one is better) without getting into a statistical debate over it and look at the "pg stats" over the playoffs

Rose: 27.1 ppg, 7.7 apg, 3.7 TOpg
Rondo:  14 ppg, 9.6 apg, 3.7 TOpg

I feel that Rose just dominated him statistically offensively and Rose probably would have had more assists if the teammates he were passing to were as good at shooting as Rondo's teammates.  Rose had equal TOs while playing more minutes and being in control of the ball more, which tells me that he protected the ball better.

I'll just agree that their defense is "roughly equal" and anybody who is going to argue that is being really obnoxious.

Then it comes down to wins.  They both got crushed by Miami 4-1.  Rondo's celtics had the same series outcome as Rose's Bulls did, but Rondo had a far better supporting cast. 

I think these are pretty inarguable points that lead me to logically conclude that Rondo is definitely not on Rose's level.

  Haha. Where to begin? Rondo played roughly 30% of his playoff minutes with a dislocated elbow. Rose averaged 27/4/8 in the playoffs, Rondo was at 17/7/11 before the injury. Advantage Rose, but not a huge advantage. I'll be obnoxious, Rondo's the better defender. He's been first team all defense the last 2 years and finished top 3 or so in DPOY voting both years. Rose?

  And it's pretty unlikely that we'd have lost 4-1 with a healthy Rondo when one of those losses was an overtime game when Rondo was basically playing with one arm the whole game. Rose had the same supporting cast he had when they beat the Heat 3 times during the season and were top seed. Rondo's supporting cast included a starting center who was playing through a broken wrist.

[Celtics18]

This discussion seems all over the place, with inappropriate uses of statistics everywhere, and I don't even know what to respond to...

But to answer the OP, no, I don't think so at all.

I think it's pretty clear without getting into fancy stats like DWS, etc.  Let's just that the two players' defense are roughly equal (even though I think one is better) without getting into a statistical debate over it and look at the "pg stats" over the playoffs

Rose: 27.1 ppg, 7.7 apg, 3.7 TOpg
Rondo:  14 ppg, 9.6 apg, 3.7 TOpg

I feel that Rose just dominated him statistically offensively and Rose probably would have had more assists if the teammates he were passing to were as good at shooting as Rondo's teammates.  Rose had equal TOs while playing more minutes and being in control of the ball more, which tells me that he protected the ball better.

I'll just agree that their defense is "roughly equal" and anybody who is going to argue that is being really obnoxious.

Then it comes down to wins.  They both got crushed by Miami 4-1.  Rondo's celtics had the same series outcome as Rose's Bulls did, but Rondo had a far better supporting cast. 

I think these are pretty inarguable points that lead me to logically conclude that Rondo is definitely not on Rose's level.

Please don't pre-emptively call me obnoxious.  I don't know a DWS from a DHS, but I will absolutely claim that Rondo's defense is superior to Rose's.  Never mind that he's been voted by opposing NBA coaches to the all defensive first team two years running, but defense is his bread and butter.  Rondo came into this league as a defensive specialist and little else.  The fact that he's also turned himself into one of the most extraordinary ballhandlers and brilliant passers that's ever played the game is an astonishing feat, and not something that seemed likely in his rookie season.

I remember falling in love with Rondo as a rookie.  The reason was his defensive playmaking ability.  I remember the first time I saw him play thinking that I'd never seen a point guard with the ability to track down loose balls and make plays defensively like this.  His defensive playmaking ability is the most underrated part of his game.  Even in this down year with the bad feet, it was still pretty impressive.

People like to say he takes plays off and lets people get in the lane.  I'm sorry, but if you watch any NBA point guard play in every game for a full season you are going to see more than enough examples of your favorite point guard "falling asleep" on defense.  It's a lame argument.  Rondo is the most dangerous defender at his position.  That's what a good defensive point guard is supposed to be.  

I obviously haven't watched Rose as closely as Rondo, and while I'm sure he's improved defensively since his rookie season, I didn't see anything from him this year that led me to believe he was a legitimate menace on the defensive end.  Among elite point guards, I'd definitely put Westbrook and Kidd ahead of Rose.  Paul is probably more of a defensive threat, and John Wall seems destined to be.  

[LarBrd33]

Rose is overrated.  Iversonesque

[XxSMSxX]

What the playoffs show is that Miami is really good, Boston is really old, and Chicago is really thin after Rose when matched up against a team as good as Miami.

Rose carried Chicago all season and through 2 playoff rounds.  Every team goes in trying to stop Rose but most couldn't.  Miami could becasue they are that much better than Indiana or Atlanta.

Switch Rose and Rondo and I think the Celtics beat the Heat and the Bulls don't have home court even in the playoffs.  I can't prove that with any stats but it is what I see when I watch the games.

  Switch a healthy Rondo for Rondo and we're still playing.

Playing where? Surely not in the playoffs. Did Games 1 and 2 not happen?


And no, Rondo is not better Rose.


People act like all Rose does is score. He's the best defending point guard in the league.

Rose isn't even close to the best defensive PG in the league, IMO that's the weakest part of his game.

And you all have to be smoking something to think Rose is on Iverson's level. Iverson is pound for pound the greatest scorer in league history, not to mention the fact that he played part of his career and got to the finals in one of the toughest defensive eras in NBA history, and even he was a better defensive PG than Rose

[XxSMSxX]

wait, this is absolutely not true. he's below average, and that's still the consistent knock on him. he COULD be the best due to his size/athleticism combo, but pretty much everyone recognizes he's not there yet.

Someone hasn't watched games this year.

More outstanding yet are Rose’s individual defensive numbers. According to Synergy Sports Technology, Rose has allowed just 0.77 points per possession overall on defense this season, an elite mark for any defender, regardless of position. Chris Paul (0.86 points per possession allowed), Rajon Rondo (0.83 PPP allowed), and Russell Westbrook (0.92 PPP allowed) –- all excellent defenders -– have been trumped statistically this year, and by no slim margin. Rose has each of those players handily beat, and boasts a shockingly comprehensive defensive profile.

Rose is particularly effective in defending isolation sequences, where he allows just 0.61 points per possession. Rose’s lateral quickness becomes a huge asset when opponents go one-on-one. In this sequence, watch how Rose goes over the pick with the Sixers’ Jrue Holiday, and yet still stays with him step for step as he drives into the lane:

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/rose-dwarfs-other-improvements-with-defense/


I can pull up other numbers if you'd like. His dRTG is 103, among the best for point guards.

Are you really using numbers to justify how good of a defender Rose is? Defense CANNOT be measured with numbers. All those numbers in that link show is that Rose is on an excellent defensive team, nothing else

[Dante]

How far did Rose take his team this year: How far did Rondo take his? At what slot was Rose drafted? Rondo? Where did the Bulls finish in their division? where did the Celtics finish? Please do not compare Mandarines to Kumquats. Would the Bulls trade Rose for Rondo? Would the Celtics do likewise? Rose is untouchable; Westbrook is untouchable;  Chris Paul is also untradeable for Rondo.Rondo is very, very good; our most important player, but please; assists is not everything and Rondo was extremely aware of going for an assist, however difficult the scoring might be, instead of just putting the ball in the basket, the easy way, many many times. He padded his assist total that way; and every, every, every Celtic fan is aware of that; excepto those that refuse to accept that. Rose has been the most valuable layer in the league; so has been Chris Paul; That means that those that elect the MVP know Jack. Ok, you win, everybody else loses. Gimme a break! Mind you, this year we didnt have the team to win it all, regardless of who was our PG. Just didnt have the legs.
But comparing PG;s at their worth; Rondo is the best 4th PG in the league right now. Thats not bad.

[CelticsFanNC]

  I also think Iverson is one of the more over rated players in the ESPN era.  Sure he got a team to the Finals but it was in the worst era of the Eastern Conference in recent memory, possibly ever.  There were probably 8 or 9 teams in the Western Conference that season who were better then the 76ers of Iverson.

  My comparison of the two was mostly from these playoffs.  He forced way to many bad shots which is very much like Iverson.  He scored a whole lot of points but took way to many shots to score them,  Also very Iverson like.  He just quit looking for his teammates which again is very much like Iverson.

   I do believe provided enough consistent help that he could count on Rose would be more of a facilitator, something Iverson never quite got.  Rose also by all reports is a great team guy and leader, something Iverson failed at miserably during his career.

[soap07]

This discussion seems all over the place, with inappropriate uses of statistics everywhere, and I don't even know what to respond to...

But to answer the OP, no, I don't think so at all.

I think it's pretty clear without getting into fancy stats like DWS, etc.  Let's just that the two players' defense are roughly equal (even though I think one is better) without getting into a statistical debate over it and look at the "pg stats" over the playoffs

Rose: 27.1 ppg, 7.7 apg, 3.7 TOpg
Rondo:  14 ppg, 9.6 apg, 3.7 TOpg

I feel that Rose just dominated him statistically offensively and Rose probably would have had more assists if the teammates he were passing to were as good at shooting as Rondo's teammates.  Rose had equal TOs while playing more minutes and being in control of the ball more, which tells me that he protected the ball better.

I'll just agree that their defense is "roughly equal" and anybody who is going to argue that is being really obnoxious.

Then it comes down to wins.  They both got crushed by Miami 4-1.  Rondo's celtics had the same series outcome as Rose's Bulls did, but Rondo had a far better supporting cast.  

I think these are pretty inarguable points that lead me to logically conclude that Rondo is definitely not on Rose's level.

Yeah, you're pretty much right. A lot of numbers being thrown around in this thread, including by myself, that pretty much show they're equal defensively and both very good.


I don't know if this proves Rondo not being on Rose's level, but at least defensively, they're very similar.

[soap07]

Are you really using numbers to justify how good of a defender Rose is? Defense CANNOT be measured with numbers. All those numbers in that link show is that Rose is on an excellent defensive team, nothing else

If you read that post, it also noted that Rose did very well in isolation situations, which has little to do with the defensive team he was on.

And I'm curious as to whether you have a better measure of how to judge Rose's defense.

And you all have to be smoking something to think Rose is on Iverson's level. Iverson is pound for pound the greatest scorer in league history, not to mention the fact that he played part of his career and got to the finals in one of the toughest defensive eras in NBA history, and even he was a better defensive PG than Rose

Now, I'm interested. Regardless of where people stand on who you'd rather have between Iverson and Rose, would you mind defending that Iverson was a better defensive guard than Rose this season?

[soap07]

I obviously haven't watched Rose as closely as Rondo, and while I'm sure he's improved defensively since his rookie season, I didn't see anything from him this year that led me to believe he was a legitimate menace on the defensive end.  Among elite point guards, I'd definitely put Westbrook and Kidd ahead of Rose.  Paul is probably more of a defensive threat, and John Wall seems destined to be. 

Come on man, seriously? I'd understand putting Rondo ahead of Rose (even though, every objective statistical measure puts Rose on par if not better than Rose defensively) because of Rondo's rep. But Westbrook, Kidd, and Wall?

First off, Paul is definitely as much a defensive thread as Rondo/Rose. But Westbrook and Wall? That's just getting ridiculous. I get that you want to defend Rondo, but you don't have to lessen other great players to bolster your own.

[Dante]

Ill just add this "food for thought". In our series with the Heat, What happened to our offense in the 4th Q. in 4 of the 5 games? It was non existent. Dont you think that with a scoring player like Rose, or Westbrook, or Chris Paul, our offense might have clicked a little better? WE would not have beat Miami; they are on a mission, but regardless, we could never count on Rondo's offense- that was a unknown quantity in every game in the season. lol .But with those other 3 pg's, you know that they have more ability to score than Rondo has, and are better foul shooters. So please dont put Rondo at least on the same level as Rose, which is the main theme of this post. Im adding Chris and Westbrook to the mix on my own cause I honestly believe thoe two are also better and more efficient than Rondo. Rose didnt get it done with the Heat neither, but, lets face it; nobody will get it done with the Heat this year either; not even my countryman Barea will get it done, but thats a given. 

[Steve Weinman]

What the playoffs show is that Miami is really good, Boston is really old, and Chicago is really thin after Rose when matched up against a team as good as Miami.

Rose carried Chicago all season and through 2 playoff rounds.  Every team goes in trying to stop Rose but most couldn't.  Miami could becasue they are that much better than Indiana or Atlanta.

Switch Rose and Rondo and I think the Celtics beat the Heat and the Bulls don't have home court even in the playoffs.  I can't prove that with any stats but it is what I see when I watch the games.

  Switch a healthy Rondo for Rondo and we're still playing.

Playing where? Surely not in the playoffs. Did Games 1 and 2 not happen?


And no, Rondo is not better Rose.


People act like all Rose does is score. He's the best defending point guard in the league.

Rose isn't even close to the best defensive PG in the league, IMO that's the weakest part of his game.

And you all have to be smoking something to think Rose is on Iverson's level. Iverson is pound for pound the greatest scorer in league history, not to mention the fact that he played part of his career and got to the finals in one of the toughest defensive eras in NBA history, and even he was a better defensive PG than Rose

That's certainly one take on Iverson.

Another is that his career true shooting mark of 51.8 percent is significantly below average, that he was a remarkably inefficient scorer and that it may not be entirely coincidental that for all his scoring volume, the man played on exactly one team in 13 seasons to rank in the league's top 10 in offensive efficiency (Denver in 2006-07, a team he didn't join until the trade in December) and only four others that even ranked in the top 20.

Poor supporting casts notwithstanding, that doesn't reflect particularly well on such a supposedly greater scorer who had the ball in his hands so often.

-sw

[Celtics18]

I obviously haven't watched Rose as closely as Rondo, and while I'm sure he's improved defensively since his rookie season, I didn't see anything from him this year that led me to believe he was a legitimate menace on the defensive end.  Among elite point guards, I'd definitely put Westbrook and Kidd ahead of Rose.  Paul is probably more of a defensive threat, and John Wall seems destined to be.  

Come on man, seriously? I'd understand putting Rondo ahead of Rose (even though, every objective statistical measure puts Rose on par if not better than Rose defensively) because of Rondo's rep. But Westbrook, Kidd, and Wall?

First off, Paul is definitely as much a defensive thread as Rondo/Rose. But Westbrook and Wall? That's just getting ridiculous. I get that you want to defend Rondo, but you don't have to lessen other great players to bolster your own.

I'm not trying to denigrate Derrick Rose.  I think he's fantastic at what he does well, the best in the league at getting in the lane and finishing strong.  I marvel at his strength, power, explosiveness, and balance going to the cup.

I like Derrick Rose as a player, but defensively I don't think he's all that great.  That's my take.  I don't see that disruptive ability that some of those other guys I mentioned have.

[JT11]

Ill just add this "food for thought". In our series with the Heat, What happened to our offense in the 4th Q. in 4 of the 5 games? It was non existent. Dont you think that with a scoring player like Rose, or Westbrook, or Chris Paul, our offense might have clicked a little better?

Don't you think that with a point guard playing with two fully healthy arms, our offense might have clicked a little better? 

[Dante]

Our offense should have clicked a little better with 2 healthy arms, but, we were notorious all season long with a lack of offense in the 4th Q. A scoring PG like Rose, or Westbrook, or Chriss would have certainly improve our 4th Q offense. Apparently there are a very few unstoppable scorers in this league right now: Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Rose, Durant. I may miss  some more, but not more than 2 more. Those guys will almost always get it done; though what they do may not be enough and they are not always 100% in their game, but you know what I mean. Rondo will get fouled by the opposition on purpose cause he is not even a 70% foul shooter, albeit being a PG. That take him out of the equation comaparing him with Rose. period.
 Another thing: talking about defense. One thing is to steal a lot of balls from the opposition  and another keeping your opposing player from scoring. Rondo is not a shutdown defender cause the Celtics dont play that kind of defense; they play a zone defense. So you cannot say that Rondo is such a great defender that shuts down his man; if he misses on his steal attempt, his man will create havoc going to the basket. So lets not be so enamoured with his defense. He is good at what he does; very good; and I love him on my team. But, if I could trade him for any of those other 3, I would do it in a jiffy. May take. Thats my answer to the main question on this matter: No. Rondo is not on par with Rose.