Does this year's playoffs show that Rondo is (at least) on par with Rose?

[Steve Weinman]

In response to the title of the original post --


No.

Well said.  Rondo is better.

If you asked every NBA GM to pick between the two it would be 30-0 in favor of Rose. There are 20 people in the world that don't know this and they are all posting on this chat. Unbelievable.

Next, I'll read that someone wants to make Rondo a player/coach!

  If you have a link to that poll I'd love to see it. The whole "completely made up" thing takes away from your point.

You are literally on the verge of "prove to me that cigarettes are bad for people" territory here, but how about this is a proxy? The fact that every single GM would take Rose is completely undoubted by everyone on the planet but the 20 of you.

Here's is a list of 121 people paid as professionals to expound on basketball and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM said Rose is more valuable than Rondo.


MVP Voting


Derrick Rose, Chicago   113   6   2   --   --   1182
Dwight Howard, Orlando   3   57   31   16   11   643
LeBron James, Miami   4   26   39   31   12   522
Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers   1   18   32   40   12   428
Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City   --   6   10   20   38   190
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas   --   5   3   11   30   113
Dwyane Wade, Miami   --   1   1   2   6   24
Manu Ginobili, San Antonio   --   2   --   --   6   20
Amar'e Stoudemire, New York   --   --   1   --   4   9
Blake Griffin, L.A. Clippers   --   --   1   --   --   5
Rajon Rondo, Boston   --   --   1   --   --   5
Tony Parker, San Antonio   --   --   --   1   --   3
Chris Paul, New Orleans   --   --   --   --   2   2

Not sure that's the first way I'd go about proving this particular point - given that many of those people also intimated Rose was more valuable than Dwight Howard and LeBron James, among others. 

Inaccurately so.

-sw

[BballTim]

In response to the title of the original post --


No.

Well said.  Rondo is better.

If you asked every NBA GM to pick between the two it would be 30-0 in favor of Rose. There are 20 people in the world that don't know this and they are all posting on this chat. Unbelievable.

Next, I'll read that someone wants to make Rondo a player/coach!

  If you have a link to that poll I'd love to see it. The whole "completely made up" thing takes away from your point.

You are literally on the verge of "prove to me that cigarettes are bad for people" territory here, but how about this is a proxy? The fact that every single GM would take Rose is completely undoubted by everyone on the planet but the 20 of you.

Here's is a list of 121 people paid as professionals to expound on basketball and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM said Rose is more valuable than Rondo.


MVP Voting


Derrick Rose, Chicago   113   6   2   --   --   1182
Dwight Howard, Orlando   3   57   31   16   11   643
LeBron James, Miami   4   26   39   31   12   522
Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers   1   18   32   40   12   428
Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City   --   6   10   20   38   190
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas   --   5   3   11   30   113
Dwyane Wade, Miami   --   1   1   2   6   24
Manu Ginobili, San Antonio   --   2   --   --   6   20
Amar'e Stoudemire, New York   --   --   1   --   4   9
Blake Griffin, L.A. Clippers   --   --   1   --   --   5
Rajon Rondo, Boston   --   --   1   --   --   5
Tony Parker, San Antonio   --   --   --   1   --   3
Chris Paul, New Orleans   --   --   --   --   2   2

  They're basketball writers. You have a much higher opinion of their opinions than most here. And by your "logic" this "proves" that every or almost every GM would rather have Rose than Wade, Howard, James, Durant, Kobe or any other player in the league. I don't think for a minute that this is true. You're not proving that cigarettes are bad for you, you're proving that many people prefer candy to vegetables.

[EDWARDO]

At least that would be moderately up for debate -- who was more valuable - Lebron, DHoward or Rose?? -- fair question.

Rose vs Rondo - honestly - no one with a serious opinion believes that. 120 NBA writers don't believe that. Not even close.

[EDWARDO]

In response to the title of the original post --


No.

Well said.  Rondo is better.

If you asked every NBA GM to pick between the two it would be 30-0 in favor of Rose. There are 20 people in the world that don't know this and they are all posting on this chat. Unbelievable.

Next, I'll read that someone wants to make Rondo a player/coach!

  If you have a link to that poll I'd love to see it. The whole "completely made up" thing takes away from your point.

You are literally on the verge of "prove to me that cigarettes are bad for people" territory here, but how about this is a proxy? The fact that every single GM would take Rose is completely undoubted by everyone on the planet but the 20 of you.

Here's is a list of 121 people paid as professionals to expound on basketball and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM said Rose is more valuable than Rondo.


MVP Voting


Derrick Rose, Chicago   113   6   2   --   --   1182
Dwight Howard, Orlando   3   57   31   16   11   643
LeBron James, Miami   4   26   39   31   12   522
Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers   1   18   32   40   12   428
Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City   --   6   10   20   38   190
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas   --   5   3   11   30   113
Dwyane Wade, Miami   --   1   1   2   6   24
Manu Ginobili, San Antonio   --   2   --   --   6   20
Amar'e Stoudemire, New York   --   --   1   --   4   9
Blake Griffin, L.A. Clippers   --   --   1   --   --   5
Rajon Rondo, Boston   --   --   1   --   --   5
Tony Parker, San Antonio   --   --   --   1   --   3
Chris Paul, New Orleans   --   --   --   --   2   2

  They're basketball writers. You have a much higher opinion of their opinions than most here. And by your "logic" this "proves" that every or almost every GM would rather have Rose than Wade, Howard, James, Durant, Kobe or any other player in the league. I don't think for a minute that this is true. You're not proving that cigarettes are bad for you, you're proving that many people prefer candy to vegetables.

120 out of 120? All idiots? How about this, find one serious opinion out there that thinks Rondo is better than Rose. I'm ahead 120-0, just so you know. But find one.

[Steve Weinman]

In response to the title of the original post --


No.

Well said.  Rondo is better.

If you asked every NBA GM to pick between the two it would be 30-0 in favor of Rose. There are 20 people in the world that don't know this and they are all posting on this chat. Unbelievable.

Next, I'll read that someone wants to make Rondo a player/coach!

  If you have a link to that poll I'd love to see it. The whole "completely made up" thing takes away from your point.

You are literally on the verge of "prove to me that cigarettes are bad for people" territory here, but how about this is a proxy? The fact that every single GM would take Rose is completely undoubted by everyone on the planet but the 20 of you.

Here's is a list of 121 people paid as professionals to expound on basketball and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM said Rose is more valuable than Rondo.


MVP Voting


Derrick Rose, Chicago   113   6   2   --   --   1182
Dwight Howard, Orlando   3   57   31   16   11   643
LeBron James, Miami   4   26   39   31   12   522
Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers   1   18   32   40   12   428
Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City   --   6   10   20   38   190
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas   --   5   3   11   30   113
Dwyane Wade, Miami   --   1   1   2   6   24
Manu Ginobili, San Antonio   --   2   --   --   6   20
Amar'e Stoudemire, New York   --   --   1   --   4   9
Blake Griffin, L.A. Clippers   --   --   1   --   --   5
Rajon Rondo, Boston   --   --   1   --   --   5
Tony Parker, San Antonio   --   --   --   1   --   3
Chris Paul, New Orleans   --   --   --   --   2   2

  They're basketball writers. You have a much higher opinion of their opinions than most here. And by your "logic" this "proves" that every or almost every GM would rather have Rose than Wade, Howard, James, Durant, Kobe or any other player in the league. I don't think for a minute that this is true. You're not proving that cigarettes are bad for you, you're proving that many people prefer candy to vegetables.

120 out of 120? All idiots? How about this, find one serious opinion out there that thinks Rondo is better than Rose. I'm ahead 120-0, just so you know. But find one.

I think there's a better-than-reasonable case for Rose in this discussion.  I just don't see the appeal to authority as the way to do it - especially when the body of "authority" cited has a lengthy history of making questionable decisions, including, most recently, Derrick Rose as the 2010-11 Most Valuable Player.

-sw

[BballTim]

In response to the title of the original post --


No.

Well said.  Rondo is better.

If you asked every NBA GM to pick between the two it would be 30-0 in favor of Rose. There are 20 people in the world that don't know this and they are all posting on this chat. Unbelievable.

Next, I'll read that someone wants to make Rondo a player/coach!

  If you have a link to that poll I'd love to see it. The whole "completely made up" thing takes away from your point.

You are literally on the verge of "prove to me that cigarettes are bad for people" territory here, but how about this is a proxy? The fact that every single GM would take Rose is completely undoubted by everyone on the planet but the 20 of you.

Here's is a list of 121 people paid as professionals to expound on basketball and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM said Rose is more valuable than Rondo.


MVP Voting


Derrick Rose, Chicago   113   6   2   --   --   1182
Dwight Howard, Orlando   3   57   31   16   11   643
LeBron James, Miami   4   26   39   31   12   522
Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers   1   18   32   40   12   428
Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City   --   6   10   20   38   190
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas   --   5   3   11   30   113
Dwyane Wade, Miami   --   1   1   2   6   24
Manu Ginobili, San Antonio   --   2   --   --   6   20
Amar'e Stoudemire, New York   --   --   1   --   4   9
Blake Griffin, L.A. Clippers   --   --   1   --   --   5
Rajon Rondo, Boston   --   --   1   --   --   5
Tony Parker, San Antonio   --   --   --   1   --   3
Chris Paul, New Orleans   --   --   --   --   2   2

  They're basketball writers. You have a much higher opinion of their opinions than most here. And by your "logic" this "proves" that every or almost every GM would rather have Rose than Wade, Howard, James, Durant, Kobe or any other player in the league. I don't think for a minute that this is true. You're not proving that cigarettes are bad for you, you're proving that many people prefer candy to vegetables.

120 out of 120? All idiots? How about this, find one serious opinion out there that thinks Rondo is better than Rose. I'm ahead 120-0, just so you know. But find one.

  Haha. If you want to change your claim to "sportswriters prefer Rose to Rondo" you win. If you're going with GMs, it's still 0-0. But it's worth pointing out that before Rondo's foot problems started in December Rondo was ahead of Rose in all of the "MVP watch" lists I saw, whether it was yahoo or espn or nba.com. So by your logic those same "experts" seemed to prefer a healthy Rondo to a healthy Rose early in the season. Same for GMs, no doubt.

[soap07]

I think there's a better-than-reasonable case for Rose in this discussion.  I just don't see the appeal to authority as the way to do it - especially when the body of "authority" cited has a lengthy history of making questionable decisions, including, most recently, Derrick Rose as the 2010-11 Most Valuable Player.

-sw

BOOM! Steve bringing the heat.

Seriously though, if people are going to try to say Rose is better than Rondo, don't say "the experts think so"...that's weak.


Say things like - Rose had a better PER, had a significantly better TS%, was on par defensively, had almost twice the win shares (and win shares/48), had almost half the turnover percentage that Rondo had, got to the line way more...quarterbacked a team with a worse supporting cast and two  All-Star caliber starters missing a chunk of the year to the top of the East, had a better oRTG (also led a team with less offensive firepower to a better offense than the Celtics), etc etc...


Don't say "because other NBA writers think so..."



EDIT: Also add, is every bit the ballhandler that Rondo is, if not better.

[Juneauz]

I don't know who's better, but I do believe that Rose is one of the most overrated players in the history of the NBA. He has so many flaws to his game, and a terribly low basketball IQ. Let guys like JR Smith or Harden take 30 shots a game like he does, and they would probably average more points than him.
Rose isn't the reason for the Bulls' success this year, Tom Thibodeau is.
My humble opinion.

[kozlodoev]

I don't know who's better, but I do believe that Rose is one of the most overrated players in the history of the NBA. He has so many flaws to his game, and a terribly low basketball IQ. Let guys like JR Smith or Harden take 30 shots a game like he does, and they would probably average more points than him.
Rose isn't the reason for the Bulls' success this year, Tom Thibodeau is.
My humble opinion.

Rondo has just as many flaws in his game, if not more. In any case, until Rondo proves he can be the franchise player on the best team in the East, Rose has the nod here by default.

[BballTim]

I think there's a better-than-reasonable case for Rose in this discussion.  I just don't see the appeal to authority as the way to do it - especially when the body of "authority" cited has a lengthy history of making questionable decisions, including, most recently, Derrick Rose as the 2010-11 Most Valuable Player.

-sw

BOOM! Steve bringing the heat.

Seriously though, if people are going to try to say Rose is better than Rondo, don't say "the experts think so"...that's weak.


Say things like - Rose had a better PER, had a significantly better TS%, was on par defensively, had almost twice the win shares (and win shares/48), had almost half the turnover percentage that Rondo had, got to the line way more...quarterbacked a team with a worse supporting cast and two  All-Star caliber starters missing a chunk of the year to the top of the East, had a better oRTG (also led a team with less offensive firepower to a better offense than the Celtics), etc etc...


Don't say "because other NBA writers think so..."



EDIT: Also add, is every bit the ballhandler that Rondo is, if not better.

  Haha. You can say Rose is on par with Rondo defensively 100 times, it still won't be true. A Rondo that was hobbled by injuries for most of the year was better than Rose in a career year. Rose's supporting cast was so "weak" that they did almost as well with Rose on the bench as in the game. Oh, and don't forget to mention that while Rose puts up better individual stats, Rondo makes the players around him better. His effect on the Celt's offense isn't that different than Rose's on the Bulls offense because the team's eFG% goes up by 5% with Rondo in the game.

[Juneauz]

I don't know who's better, but I do believe that Rose is one of the most overrated players in the history of the NBA. He has so many flaws to his game, and a terribly low basketball IQ. Let guys like JR Smith or Harden take 30 shots a game like he does, and they would probably average more points than him.
Rose isn't the reason for the Bulls' success this year, Tom Thibodeau is.
My humble opinion.

Rondo has just as many flaws in his game, if not more. In any case, until Rondo proves he can be the franchise player on the best team in the East, Rose has the nod here by default.

Rajon has flaws as well, that's for sure. That's the reason why he isn't an mvp, and Rose shouldn't be either.
Derrick Rose isn't in the same league with Dirk or Lebron.
But this is how the league works, they always choose somebody for one reason or the other and try to make an idol out of him, trying to increase sales or helping a franchise in need.
It happened with AI, with T-Mac and many others... Rose is just the latest trend

[bfrombleacher]

I don't know who's better, but I do believe that Rose is one of the most overrated players in the history of the NBA. He has so many flaws to his game, and a terribly low basketball IQ. Let guys like JR Smith or Harden take 30 shots a game like he does, and they would probably average more points than him.
Rose isn't the reason for the Bulls' success this year, Tom Thibodeau is.
My humble opinion.

Rondo has just as many flaws in his game, if not more. In any case, until Rondo proves he can be the franchise player on the best team in the East, Rose has the nod here by default.

As many as two: Free throws and jump shots.

[Vermont Green]

What the playoffs show is that Miami is really good, Boston is really old, and Chicago is really thin after Rose when matched up against a team as good as Miami.

Rose carried Chicago all season and through 2 playoff rounds.  Every team goes in trying to stop Rose but most couldn't.  Miami could becasue they are that much better than Indiana or Atlanta.

Switch Rose and Rondo and I think the Celtics beat the Heat and the Bulls don't have home court even in the playoffs.  I can't prove that with any stats but it is what I see when I watch the games.

  Switch a healthy Rondo for Rondo and we're still playing.

I am tardy to get back to this party but if you could switch the regular banged up Rondo for a Rondo with a good enough shot that he actually had to be covered by the opposing team, then I say yes, maybe we beat Miami.

And to pile on to the argument of GM's, Coachs, Writers opinions, Coach Krzyzewski liked Billups, Westbrook, and Rose for his team over a fully healthy and rested Rondo.  That is just one vote but a fairly well credentialled vote and a vote by someone who got to see him for a lengthy head-to-head tryout.

Rondo can't shoot!  The other teams don't even cover him.  That is a major flaw for a basketball player no matter how good you are at everything else.  I am with Coach K and will take Rose over Rondo by a wide margin for this Celtics team and for any team.

[BballTim]

What the playoffs show is that Miami is really good, Boston is really old, and Chicago is really thin after Rose when matched up against a team as good as Miami.

Rose carried Chicago all season and through 2 playoff rounds.  Every team goes in trying to stop Rose but most couldn't.  Miami could becasue they are that much better than Indiana or Atlanta.

Switch Rose and Rondo and I think the Celtics beat the Heat and the Bulls don't have home court even in the playoffs.  I can't prove that with any stats but it is what I see when I watch the games.

  Switch a healthy Rondo for Rondo and we're still playing.

I am tardy to get back to this party but if you could switch the regular banged up Rondo for a Rondo with a good enough shot that he actually had to be covered by the opposing team, then I say yes, maybe we beat Miami.

And to pile on to the argument of GM's, Coachs, Writers opinions, Coach Krzyzewski liked Billups, Westbrook, and Rose for his team over a fully healthy and rested Rondo.  That is just one vote but a fairly well credentialled vote and a vote by someone who got to see him for a lengthy head-to-head tryout.

Rondo can't shoot!  The other teams don't even cover him.  That is a major flaw for a basketball player no matter how good you are at everything else.  I am with Coach K and will take Rose over Rondo by a wide margin for this Celtics team and for any team.

  USA basketball doesn't run a real offense. They depend on transition baskets and isos and spot up shooting from players that spread the floor. With no real point guard responsibilities involved he was right to choose those other players over Rondo.

  And, honestly, what's more important? How well Rondo shoots and how closely players guard him or how much of an overall impact he has on the offense? I'd say the latter but that seems to put my in a clear minority.

[soap07]

 Haha. You can say Rose is on par with Rondo defensively 100 times, it still won't be true. A Rondo that was hobbled by injuries for most of the year was better than Rose in a career year. Rose's supporting cast was so "weak" that they did almost as well with Rose on the bench as in the game. Oh, and don't forget to mention that while Rose puts up better individual stats, Rondo makes the players around him better. His effect on the Celt's offense isn't that different than Rose's on the Bulls offense because the team's eFG% goes up by 5% with Rondo in the game.

This is almost getting hilarious now.

Yes, the 10 minutes a game (less than a quarter) that Rose sat is more indicative of Rose's supporting cast being better than Rondo.

Rajon Rondo played with three other All-Stars. All three made numerous All Star teams before Rondo came along and would likely have continued making All Star teams if Rondo didn't come along.

Rose played with exactly 0 All Stars. He had two of the team's best players miss half the season and still led the team to a better offense than Rondo's team.

Rose had a better individual season than Rondo, on a team with a better record than Rondo's, and on a team with a lesser supporting cast than Rondo's.

If you seriously believe that the combination of Deng/Noah/Boozer/Bogans (two of whom missed half the season) is better offensively than Ray/Paul/KG, I mean...yikes.