2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Fafnir]

Kevin Garnett defended every top wing player when he was the starting SF (used as combo forward, started at SF but played a good chunk of his minutes at PF too) for Minnesota in his second and third seasons (until Googs got hurt) + he played a fair bit of small forward the following season after Minny acquired Joe Smith with KG starting about half the season again at SF.

It wasn't until late in that season that KG moved over to the PF position on a full time basis with only the odd scattered minutes at SF from that point onwards.

Garnett still had that same athletic ability when he was in his prime in 2004 that he had in 1997-2000 when he played the SF position on a regular basis.

For some reason I can't get into the 82games.com for 03-04 but in 04-05, looking at KG's top 10 minutes lineup and the top 20 5 man lineups, not a single one of them has KG listed at the SF in a big lineup. He might have defended wings, he might have played some minutes at the SF, but not a single one of the top statistical 5 man units or the top 5 man units for minutes played featured Garnett next to 2 frontcourt players. Garnett was much more likely to be the biggest guy in the lineup (and the default center) than he was to be the small forward.

I think its fools gold to think KG can play the 3 in this setting for anything but a few strategic minutes a game, just like its a little silly to peg LeBron as a PF full time, even though he could easily play 8 spot minutes there in a small ball lineup.

If KG can't play SF in his atheltic prime then Larry Bird can't either.

KG was quicker, longer, and more athletic than Larry.

[GreenFaith1819]

Plus, based on 82games, here are Lebron's position-by-position stats:

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MIA9.HTM#bypos

So can anyone here tell me otherwise that despite what is listed here for Lebron James, he did in fact play PG for some time during the season?

He did. I saw the games. He played PG, SG, SF and even some PF.

But none of his PG or SG time is listed in that reference.

So in short - yes KG did play all spots in Sota during 03-04. He may not have been listed there as such, but he played those spots.

[GreenFaith1819]

Kevin Garnett defended every top wing player when he was the starting SF (used as combo forward, started at SF but played a good chunk of his minutes at PF too) for Minnesota in his second and third seasons (until Googs got hurt) + he played a fair bit of small forward the following season after Minny acquired Joe Smith with KG starting about half the season again at SF.

It wasn't until late in that season that KG moved over to the PF position on a full time basis with only the odd scattered minutes at SF from that point onwards.

Garnett still had that same athletic ability when he was in his prime in 2004 that he had in 1997-2000 when he played the SF position on a regular basis.

For some reason I can't get into the 82games.com for 03-04 but in 04-05, looking at KG's top 10 minutes lineup and the top 20 5 man lineups, not a single one of them has KG listed at the SF in a big lineup. He might have defended wings, he might have played some minutes at the SF, but not a single one of the top statistical 5 man units or the top 5 man units for minutes played featured Garnett next to 2 frontcourt players. Garnett was much more likely to be the biggest guy in the lineup (and the default center) than he was to be the small forward.

I think its fools gold to think KG can play the 3 in this setting for anything but a few strategic minutes a game, just like its a little silly to peg LeBron as a PF full time, even though he could easily play 8 spot minutes there in a small ball lineup.

If KG can't play SF in his atheltic prime then Larry Bird can't either.

KG was quicker, longer, and more athletic than Larry.

And nearly as smart as Larry.

He averaged right around 5 assists for several seasons and even had one yr with 6 assists, too.

[indeedproceed]

Kevin Garnett defended every top wing player when he was the starting SF (used as combo forward, started at SF but played a good chunk of his minutes at PF too) for Minnesota in his second and third seasons (until Googs got hurt) + he played a fair bit of small forward the following season after Minny acquired Joe Smith with KG starting about half the season again at SF.

It wasn't until late in that season that KG moved over to the PF position on a full time basis with only the odd scattered minutes at SF from that point onwards.

Garnett still had that same athletic ability when he was in his prime in 2004 that he had in 1997-2000 when he played the SF position on a regular basis.

For some reason I can't get into the 82games.com for 03-04 but in 04-05, looking at KG's top 10 minutes lineup and the top 20 5 man lineups, not a single one of them has KG listed at the SF in a big lineup. He might have defended wings, he might have played some minutes at the SF, but not a single one of the top statistical 5 man units or the top 5 man units for minutes played featured Garnett next to 2 frontcourt players. Garnett was much more likely to be the biggest guy in the lineup (and the default center) than he was to be the small forward.

I think its fools gold to think KG can play the 3 in this setting for anything but a few strategic minutes a game, just like its a little silly to peg LeBron as a PF full time, even though he could easily play 8 spot minutes there in a small ball lineup.

If KG can't play SF in his atheltic prime then Larry Bird can't either.

KG was quicker, longer, and more athletic than Larry.

Kevin Garnett's majority of minutes and best statistical production were completed when he was at the 4, or the center, with only one other frontcourt player on the floor with him. That's all I'm saying.

And you shut your sweet vermouth about Larry Bird. He could've played all five positions if he wanted.

[Who]

Kevin Garnett defended every top wing player when he was the starting SF (used as combo forward, started at SF but played a good chunk of his minutes at PF too) for Minnesota in his second and third seasons (until Googs got hurt) + he played a fair bit of small forward the following season after Minny acquired Joe Smith with KG starting about half the season again at SF.

It wasn't until late in that season that KG moved over to the PF position on a full time basis with only the odd scattered minutes at SF from that point onwards.

Garnett still had that same athletic ability when he was in his prime in 2004 that he had in 1997-2000 when he played the SF position on a regular basis.

For some reason I can't get into the 82games.com for 03-04 but in 04-05, looking at KG's top 10 minutes lineup and the top 20 5 man lineups, not a single one of them has KG listed at the SF in a big lineup. He might have defended wings, he might have played some minutes at the SF, but not a single one of the top statistical 5 man units or the top 5 man units for minutes played featured Garnett next to 2 frontcourt players. Garnett was much more likely to be the biggest guy in the lineup (and the default center) than he was to be the small forward.

I think its fools gold to think KG can play the 3 in this setting for anything but a few strategic minutes a game, just like its a little silly to peg LeBron as a PF full time, even though he could easily play 8 spot minutes there in a small ball lineup.

I don't remember KG playing any significant minutes at SF during those seasons in 2004 and 2005. I remember him playing the overwhelming majority of his minutes at PF and small amount of minutes at C during those years. Maybe he got the odd minute there but nothing significant as far as I recall.

Well, 2003/04 anyway (great season for T'Wolves), I didn't watch many T'Wolves games the following year.

Garnett also had to play some PG in the playoffs in the Lakers series after Cassell got hurt that year in the playoffs and struggled from that point on. Not defensively (sorry, KG) but offensively in terms of bringing up the ball and initiating the offense. And then finishing the plays as the main option. Defensively, he was still at PF.

------------------------------------

What I am saying is that KG did this when he was younger (played SF) and he was still athletic enough at that point in his career (2004) to do so again should his team wish to do so.

[GreenFaith1819]

So did anyone here see my post about Lebron James and 82games.com or are folks choosing to ignore the truth about my post?

[indeedproceed]

And just to clarify, I'm not debating whether or not KG could've defended a lot of the 3's in the NBA during that time. KG in his athletic prime would be a great defensive matchup for LeBron, just like Rodman would've during his piston days.

But the difference between small forward and power forward is a large one. In many cases the difference between the 4 and 5 on offense and defense in terms of role is pretty small. Same with 2 and 3. You can also play a lot of points at the 2 (but not that many 2's at the 1).

But in terms of role, Kevin Garnett was at his best as a power forward, due to this athleticism and skill-set.

[Rondo2287]

Just so I'm clear in this game, what other all-time big men can guard SGs?

Can Kareem?  Can Hakeem?  Can Shaq?  Can Robinson?  Can Duncan?  Can Malone?  Can Amare?  Can Dikembe?  Can Walton? 

I guess things are getting a bit too theoretical for even, even for this draft.  The idea of KG at SG just defies common sense to me.

I plan on employing shaq as a lock down defender on point guards.  This is of course assuming he has the powers that he did in the movie Kazaam

[KCattheStripe]

World B. Free for MVP!

[indeedproceed]

So did anyone here see my post about Lebron James and 82games.com or are folks choosing to ignore the truth about my post?

Okay, I'm going to tell you why LeBron's time 'at PG' in your words is different than saying "KG played all 5 positions".

LeBron James is a point forward. He's the best passing forward since Larry Bird.

Because of that, you can have a 1-5 lineup of Bibby-Wade-James-Bosh-Anthony where in fact, Mike Bibby is delegated to more of a spot shooter than a ball handler, playing to his strengths, while LeBron does the ball handling. LeBron would still be listed at a '3' and would still probably defend the SF position, but he'd be the primary ball handlers as much as anyone on the court.

He's still actually a small forward, but his skill-set allows him to play outside the position.

My point with KG in the numbers I could find (I've been trying, Who to get into 02/03 and 03/04, but I can't) is that he was never, not in his top statistical minutes and not in his top minutes played, in a lineup that featured 2 other frontcourt players. So, if he was playing small forward, who was center? who was the 4?

[Edgar]

Sorry forbeing this late I am in the middle of a couple of public bidding, that i need to get ready on Friday.

I promiss I will finish my recap ( I only have 2 of those made)
Sorry for the delay I will be able to send them tomorrow

P:S: I promiss they will be good
thats all i have to ask


thank you

Edgar

[StartOrien]

Just so I'm clear in this game, what other all-time big men can guard SGs?

Can Kareem?  Can Hakeem?  Can Shaq?  Can Robinson?  Can Duncan?  Can Malone?  Can Amare?  Can Dikembe?  Can Walton? 

I guess things are getting a bit too theoretical for even, even for this draft.  The idea of KG at SG just defies common sense to me.

I plan on employing shaq as a lock down defender on point guards.  This is of course assuming he has the powers that he did in the movie Kazaam

Interesting you'd choose "Kazaam" Shaq over "Steel" Shaq. EXPLAIN.

[indeedproceed]

Okay, I had to change browsers but I got to the 03/04 numbers.

Top 10 minutes played lineups featuring KG: Zero lineups with less than 3 perimeter players and more than 1 other frontcourt player. All 10 of them, KG at the 4.

Top 10 statistical lineups featuring KG: Zero lineups with less than 3 perimeter players and more than 1 other frontcourt player. All 10 of them, KG at the 4.

Top 20 Minutes Played 5-man units, those featuring KG: Zero lineups with less than 3 perimeter players and more than 1 other frontcourt player. All of them, KG at the 4, or not featured.

Top 20 statistical 5-man unites, those featuring KG: Zero lineups with less than 3 perimeter players and more than 1 other frontcourt player. All of them, KG at the 4, or not featured.

[GreenFaith1819]

So did anyone here see my post about Lebron James and 82games.com or are folks choosing to ignore the truth about my post?

Okay, I'm going to tell you why LeBron's time 'at PG' in your words is different than saying "KG played all 5 positions".

LeBron James is a point forward. He's the best passing forward since Larry Bird.

Because of that, you can have a 1-5 lineup of Bibby-Wade-James-Bosh-Anthony where in fact, Mike Bibby is delegated to more of a spot shooter than a ball handler, playing to his strengths, while LeBron does the ball handling. LeBron would still be listed at a '3' and would still probably defend the SF position, but he'd be the primary ball handlers as much as anyone on the court.

He's still actually a small forward, but his skill-set allows him to play outside the position.

My point with KG in the numbers I could find (I've been trying, Who to get into 02/03 and 03/04, but I can't) is that he was never, not in his top statistical minutes and not in his top minutes played, in a lineup that featured 2 other frontcourt players. So, if he was playing small forward, who was center? who was the 4?

But the point I'm trying to drive home here is that Kevin Garnett could - and did - play multiple positions for limited minutes, and even extended minutes in some cases.

And it's not listed as such.

Of course I'm sure that Doc would go with a traditional lineup most of the time, but I'm sure he'd utilize KG's skill-set in creating some matchup problems.

I will never forget the 07-08 Finals and how the announcers were even commenting on how Doc Rivers was at times out-coaching Phil Jackson.

With the horses he'd have here to work with, I'm sure he'd put them to good use.

[StartOrien]

Greenfaith,

In the minutes you'd use KG at the 3, what would the rest of your lineup look like?