2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[GreenFaith1819]

Don't forget another Big that's on my roster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGj4W9V-wCk

Too bad he had only 2-3 good years. But Ralph Sampson was a game-changer back then.

[mgent]

Starting Centers, By Tier -- my rankings

My top tier at the Center position is Russell, Kareem and Wilt.

The second tier is Hakeem, Shaquille and Moses.

Undecided on whether Bill Walton is first tier or second tier. Since this is a one season look rather than the duration of one's career, Walton ranks higher in my esteem [as does Wilt].

Third tier David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and maybe Dwight Howard.

Then there is Robert Parish and Dikembe Mutombo to round out the fourth tier.

I'd move Walton down to the 3rd and Howard down to the 4th.

[StartOrien]

Yeah but my point was that he wasn't playing the best players ever night in and night out.  All we can do is speculate, and my speculation would be that his height wouldn't allow him to dominate against the best of the best in the way that another dominate player with normal size would be able to.

Of course he's not going to dominate like he did, no one would.

But he had a 16 year career that has him going against a vast majority of these elite bigs, and he did pretty well against them. I don't see how his height would be that much more of an issue than it was during his playing years.

Because it would be even more magnified against the all-time greats.

I don't know how else to say this.

I'm not saying other guys wouldn't play worse also.  I'm saying that Barkley would play worse AND his height would be an extra factor that other guys wouldn't have to worry about.

We'll agree to disagree I guess. I don't see the logic in your argument that Charles Barkley would be affected any more than anyone else in this format.

[indeedproceed]

Yeah but my point was that he wasn't playing the best players ever night in and night out.  All we can do is speculate, and my speculation would be that his height wouldn't allow him to dominate against the best of the best in the way that another dominate player with normal size would be able to.

Of course he's not going to dominate like he did, no one would.

But he had a 16 year career that has him going against a vast majority of these elite bigs, and he did pretty well against them. I don't see how his height would be that much more of an issue than it was during his playing years.

I've been looking more at the Malone/Barkley matchup. If you take into effect that Charles was pretty bad those last few years (especially compared to his earlier years), it isn't that much of a dominance, but it is still a slight tip to Malone.

Barkley, 86-96 vs Malone, per 36:  21.5 pts, 9.6 reb, 51%FG, 7.67 FTA, 79%FT
Malone, same per-36: 23.3pts, 9.1 rebs, 50.6 FG%, 8FTA's, 73% FT

If you figure that Karl Malone was the best PF of his era (and considered by some who have never heard of Tim Duncan as the best power forward of all time), Barkley did well. Didn't dominate him or anything, but he did pretty darn well.

EDIT: And if anyone just paid attention to this:

Paying more attention to the game log, they're two elite PF's, the discrepancy between their numbers really comes up towards the end of Barkley's career.

instead of making their own googledocs speadsheet and deriving per-36 numbers, well screw you. Hard work takes time.

[StartOrien]

If you figure that Karl Malone was the best PF of his era (and considered by some who have never heard of Tim Duncan as the best power forward of all time), Barkley did well. Didn't dominate him or anything, but he did pretty darn well.

Ya, I by no means earlier meant to insinuate he'd dominate in this format. Just that he's an incredible talent, and I don't think he's overrated as a player.  

[StartOrien]

EDIT: And if anyone just paid attention to this:

Paying more attention to the game log, they're two elite PF's, the discrepancy between their numbers really comes up towards the end of Barkley's career.

instead of making their own googledocs speadsheet and deriving per-36 numbers, well screw you. Hard work takes time.

[Redz]

I just updated my profile, with a proposed lineup and a few notes on my feelings about playoff #'s for these guys.  Thanks again to Nick for doing the roster stats.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=48370.msg1018395#msg1018395

btw, I just went looking for a previous post in this thread that I did last night, and was very impressed that there were something like 8 pages of posts in this thread in the last couple of hours.

[StartOrien]

I just updated my profile, with a proposed lineup and a few notes on my feelings about playoff #'s for these guys.  Thanks again to Nick for doing the roster stats.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=48370.msg1018395#msg1018395

That was a smart lineup adjustment

[Redz]

I just updated my profile, with a proposed lineup and a few notes on my feelings about playoff #'s for these guys.  Thanks again to Nick for doing the roster stats.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=48370.msg1018395#msg1018395

That was a smart lineup adjustment

that's `cause I'm wickid smaht 

[StartOrien]

I just updated my profile, with a proposed lineup and a few notes on my feelings about playoff #'s for these guys.  Thanks again to Nick for doing the roster stats.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=48370.msg1018395#msg1018395

That was a smart lineup adjustment

that's `cause I'm wickid smaht 

Well, now you've made me question myself 

[Roy H.]

Starting Centers, By Tier -- my rankings

My top tier at the Center position is Russell, Kareem and Wilt.

The second tier is Hakeem, Shaquille and Moses.

Undecided on whether Bill Walton is first tier or second tier. Since this is a one season look rather than the duration of one's career, Walton ranks higher in my esteem [as does Wilt].

Third tier David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and maybe Dwight Howard.

Then there is Robert Parish and Dikembe Mutombo to round out the fourth tier.

I'd move Walton down to the 3rd and Howard down to the 4th.

Agreed. Walton never had a season anywhere close to Robinson, Shaq, etc., let alone Wilt or Kareem.

[GreenFaith1819]

Starting Centers, By Tier -- my rankings

My top tier at the Center position is Russell, Kareem and Wilt.

The second tier is Hakeem, Shaquille and Moses.

Undecided on whether Bill Walton is first tier or second tier. Since this is a one season look rather than the duration of one's career, Walton ranks higher in my esteem [as does Wilt].

Third tier David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and maybe Dwight Howard.

Then there is Robert Parish and Dikembe Mutombo to round out the fourth tier.

Last year I argued much for Hakeem to be in that top tier.

This year? With Wilt, Russell Kareem? Not so much.

Especially with Wilt....some portions of these clips I can see what Who is talking about, with Wilt's weight gain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLrMw3vvhQw&feature=related

I can honestly see him and Shaq battling to nearly a standstill...literally....freethrows and all .

Just a monster of a man. Looks like a man among boys in some parts of clip.

[KCattheStripe]

If you want to keep Hakeem out of the top tier I understand, but there should be a tier 1A then:
http://houston.sbnation.com/houston-rockets/2011/6/4/2206467/in-the-hakeem-olajuwon-vs-shaquille-oneal-debate-the-dream-remains

[nickagneta]

Starting Centers, By Tier -- my rankings

My top tier at the Center position is Russell, Kareem and Wilt.

The second tier is Hakeem, Shaquille and Moses.

Undecided on whether Bill Walton is first tier or second tier. Since this is a one season look rather than the duration of one's career, Walton ranks higher in my esteem [as does Wilt].

Third tier David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and maybe Dwight Howard.

Then there is Robert Parish and Dikembe Mutombo to round out the fourth tier.

I'd move Walton down to the 3rd and Howard down to the 4th.

Prime Walton, for those that didn't see him, and given that he played west coast in his prime in the mid to late 70's before a decent television contract it would have been difficult, was as dominant as Hakeem or Kareem or Moses in their prime. He was perhaps the greatest passing center ever, a dominant force on defense against the biggest and strongest and most athletic of big men, and had an extremely strong post game and good short to mid range shot.

My tiers for centers would go:

1st: Russell, Chamberlain, Shaquille

2nd: Hakeem, Walton, Kareem, Moses

3rd: Robinson, Ewing, Parish, Unseld, Mikan....maybe Howard

[mgent]

If you figure that Karl Malone was the best PF of his era (and considered by some who have never heard of Tim Duncan as the best power forward of all time), Barkley did well. Didn't dominate him or anything, but he did pretty darn well.

Ya, I by no means earlier meant to insinuate he'd dominate in this format. Just that he's an incredible talent, and I don't think he's overrated as a player.  

You misread me if you thought I meant Barkley, Cowens, or Ben Wallace were overrated as PLAYERS at all.  I even said I thought they were all excellent.  What I said was that they were being overrated in this game because of most matchups.