2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Fafnir]

do think however that bringing up the difference in eras of the 70's (where Kareem was scoring 35 points and grabbing 17 boards a game) to the 80's (where Kareem still scored, but lost significant #'s on his boards and blocks) is a valid point.  

I think its overblown.

Especially when you're comparing the elite athletes to the elite athletes like we are in this setting.

[indeedproceed]

do think however that bringing up the difference in eras of the 70's (where Kareem was scoring 35 points and grabbing 17 boards a game) to the 80's (where Kareem still scored, but lost significant #'s on his boards and blocks) is a valid point. 

I think its overblown.

The 1970's were overblown. At least the basketball players' noses were.

So you're going to say the competitive level between the two eras was equivalent?

[KCattheStripe]

Wilt will school Hakeem and Kareem. Wilt schooled everybody and on my team he has McHale, a luxery he didn't have while playing.

But who plays Hakeem on the other end? And how do you think they fare?

Wilt. Don't forget Wilt was a premier defender and in the twilight of his career, he helped LA beat Milwaukee in the play-offs, limiting the at his peak Kareem, who in my mind is the equal of Hakeem.

Wilt also lost to Kareem.

Wilt took two out of three.

So with Seattle, how does Cowens guard McHale? LA, is Ben Wallace going to guard McHale?

Cowen's job in the 70's was to guard every low post big man in an era chock full of them, he did it on championship teams, I have no problem putting him against McHale. People forget that the Cs always thought they were going to get a center to put next to Cowens, they just never got one good enough and rode his and Hondo's toughness to two titles.

[Fafnir]

do think however that bringing up the difference in eras of the 70's (where Kareem was scoring 35 points and grabbing 17 boards a game) to the 80's (where Kareem still scored, but lost significant #'s on his boards and blocks) is a valid point.  

I think its overblown.

The 1970's were overblown. At least the basketball players' noses were.

So you're going to say the competitive level between the two eras was equivalent?

I think saying that Moses faced better competition/athletes is strange given they played in the league together for 13 years.

And as I said in my ninja edit, we're comparing the best to the best.

[Who]

Wilt Chamberlain was an avid weight lifter who's strength and physique grew throughout his career. There were a couple of different stages in his physical progression:

(1) Wilt Chamberlain was the same size as a rookie Kevin Garnett when he was in college. 7-1, 220lbs. Stick thin. All limbs.

(2) In his early years in the NBA, Wilt Chamberlain bulked up to around 235-250lbs. Not to dissimilar to a David Robinson body type after a couple of years. Brain has gone blank for a good comparison prior to that, a slightly stronger Tyson Chandler type physique.

(3) By 1967, the year selected by Rebus I believe, Wilt Chamberlain was up to 270lbs or so. Wilt was one of the strongest players one would ever face by this point in his career.

(4) By his Lakers years, Wilt Chamberlain was up to 300+lbs. Shaq is the only player who could compare to Wilt in terms of size, length and strength at this point in Wilt's career. And vice versa. Wilt still had really good quickness and leaping ability too at this juncture in his career.

Wilt took terrific care of his body and was in much better shape than a lot of the older centers we've seen over the past 20 years or so. I don't think there has been anyone who has aged as well as Wilt did. Like this guy could still run up and down with a young Kareem and Kareem was one hell of an athlete in those days.

---------------------------------------------

As for the picture on the previous page, comparing Wilt to Shaq, Wilt's Harlem Globetrotter days were just before his first NBA season.

[Donoghus]

Regarding the generational gap thing, I do think it'll be difficult to gauge how an early 70s Kareem would fare against an early 80s Moses.  

I really see things different from post ABA merger NBA and pre-merger stuff.  If you're taking pre-merger Kareem, its a lot tougher to project how he would play against a '82-83 Moses.

Honestly, I think its a great move to pick the pre-merger Kareem to throw up against Moses since it makes it much more difficult to use head to heads to have any bearing on the way I'm going to see things.

[Who]

do think however that bringing up the difference in eras of the 70's (where Kareem was scoring 35 points and grabbing 17 boards a game) to the 80's (where Kareem still scored, but lost significant #'s on his boards and blocks) is a valid point. 

I think its overblown.

The 1970's were overblown. At least the basketball players' noses were.

So you're going to say the competitive level between the two eras was equivalent?

The early 1970s had some incredible Championship teams. That 1971 Milwaukee Bucks team, Red Holzman's two time Champion Knicks and Wilt's + West's LA Lakers. An up and coming Boston Celtics team led by Cowens and Hondo too.

The mid 1970s, I can see an argument for the talent pool tapering out (due to ABA and retiring NBA stars like Jerry West and Oscar Robertson) and for a lack of a top quality teams towards the late 1970s (injuries to Bill Walton hurt tremendously).

[StartOrien]

Is everyone's profile in now?

[mgent]

do think however that bringing up the difference in eras of the 70's (where Kareem was scoring 35 points and grabbing 17 boards a game) to the 80's (where Kareem still scored, but lost significant #'s on his boards and blocks) is a valid point.  

I think its overblown.

The 1970's were overblown. At least the basketball players' noses were.

So you're going to say the competitive level between the two eras was equivalent?

I think saying that Moses faced better competition/athletes is strange given they played in the league together for 13 years.

And as I said in my ninja edit, we're comparing the best to the best.

I think people are forgetting this.  It's what's causing guys like Wallace, Cowens, Barkley, etc. to become overrated.  All excellent players in their eras, but the only way to compare teams in this format is to look at matchups.  And some of those guys aren't gonna be good-no-matter-who-they-play players; they're gonna end up struggling against certain matchups.

[indeedproceed]

do think however that bringing up the difference in eras of the 70's (where Kareem was scoring 35 points and grabbing 17 boards a game) to the 80's (where Kareem still scored, but lost significant #'s on his boards and blocks) is a valid point.  

I think its overblown.

The 1970's were overblown. At least the basketball players' noses were.

So you're going to say the competitive level between the two eras was equivalent?

I think saying that Moses faced better competition/athletes is strange given they played in the league together for 13 years.

And as I said in my ninja edit, we're comparing the best to the best.

Well look at mister 'I edit my posts after I write them to seem right even after other points are added.

LL Cool J and Canibus got in a hip-hop feud over something similar.

As sir Can-I-Bus said, "I'ma let the world know the truth, you don't want me to shine, you studied my rhyme, than you laid your vocals after mine."

(Kidding...its not often that I get to reference a 15yr old hip hop song)

But to put a pin in this whole thing...are you contending that there is likelihood that Kareem averages 35 points and 17 boards in 1985?

[StartOrien]

I think people are forgetting this.  It's what's causing guys like Wallace, Cowens, Barkley, etc. to become overrated.  All excellent players in their eras, but the only way to compare teams in this format is to look at matchups.  And some of those guys aren't gonna be good-no-matter-who-they-play players; they're gonna end up struggling against certain matchups.

Why is Charles Barkley overrated? What era did he need to dominate in order to prove he's an incredible power forward?

[Who]

Regarding the generational gap thing, I do think it'll be difficult to gauge how an early 70s Kareem would fare against an early 80s Moses.  

I really see things different from post ABA merger NBA and pre-merger stuff.  If you're taking pre-merger Kareem, its a lot tougher to project how he would play against a '82-83 Moses.

Honestly, I think its a great move to pick the pre-merger Kareem to throw up against Moses since it makes it much more difficult to use head to heads to have any bearing on the way I'm going to see things.

I think Moses Malone would still bother Kareem quite a lot.

His highly physical, powerful and relentless style of play versus Kareem's 7-2, even less bulk (225-235lbs?), thin frame and finesse style of play ... it's just a really tough matchup for Kareem.

[indeedproceed]

Why is Charles Barkley overrated? What era did he need to dominate in order to prove he's an incredible power forward?

I can tell you the player..and its Karl Malone.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=malonka01

That would've sewn it up nicely.

[KCattheStripe]

do think however that bringing up the difference in eras of the 70's (where Kareem was scoring 35 points and grabbing 17 boards a game) to the 80's (where Kareem still scored, but lost significant #'s on his boards and blocks) is a valid point.  

I think its overblown.

The 1970's were overblown. At least the basketball players' noses were.

So you're going to say the competitive level between the two eras was equivalent?

I think saying that Moses faced better competition/athletes is strange given they played in the league together for 13 years.

And as I said in my ninja edit, we're comparing the best to the best.

I think people are forgetting this.  It's what's causing guys like Wallace, Cowens, Barkley, etc. to become overrated.  All excellent players in their eras, but the only way to compare teams in this format is to look at matchups.  And some of those guys aren't gonna be good-no-matter-who-they-play players; they're gonna end up struggling against certain matchups.

Dave Cowens is disappointed that you would lump him in with those two.

[StartOrien]

Why is Charles Barkley overrated? What era did he need to dominate in order to prove he's an incredible power forward?

I can tell you the player..and its Karl Malone.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=malonka01

That would've sewn it up nicely.

Do struggles against one particular elite power forward constitute being overrated?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barklch01.html