2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[KCattheStripe]

OMG where did you find that pic. I'm still laughing. Oh it hurts my sides.

Google image search is my besty friend.

[indeedproceed]

I'm surprised nobody took traditional 12th/13th men.

Robert Horry, Steve Kerr, Scalabrine, Derek Fisher, Danny Ainge...

Phil Jackson...



Edit: apologies to KC. He took Robert Horry. Smart hombre. Good thing he didn't take Ainge too.

And nobody took Toine. Quelle suprise!

[RebusRankin]

Hey, my team has slept with the most women and that's just Wilt's 20,000. ;DYou guys can have coach with best hair.

[mgent]

I will say that, by a fairly significant margin, my favorite team is Redz'.  Call that mod bias, call that me sticking up for a friend, call that whatever you want, but I calls it like I see it.

I just think Portland has the best balance of offense, defense, ball-handling, ball movement, individual greatness, diversity of talent, clutch play, and fit.  There are a lot of great teams, but Portland looks the most like a team to me.  

So, my individual awards (not that anybody cares, since I'm no longer a panelist):

1.  Best team: Portland Trailblazers

2.  Best defensive team:  LA Lakers

3.  Best offensive team:  Denver Nuggets

4.  Best passing team: Portland (based upon it's front court starters)

5.  Best starting backcourt:  Chicago Bulls

6.  Best starting big men:  LA Lakers

7.  Most likeable team: Portland Trailblazers (I'm a sucker for Larry)

8.  Quickest team / scariest "small ball" team: Philadelphia 76ers

9.  Most talented team:  Miami Heat

10.  Most athletic team:  Tie:  Denver Nuggets & Dallas Mavericks

11.  Best three-point shooting team:  Indiana Pacers

12.  Most underrated team (including by me):  Atlanta Hawks

13.  Most underrated team that belongs in the top four:  Seattle SuperSonics

14.  Team that I should like, but for whatever reason I don't:  Memphis Grizzlies (it's the Lebron bias, I think)

15.  Team that I love and hate at the same time:  Boston Celtics  (Havlicek?  Tommy?  Duncan?  Love 'em!  Iverson?  Carter?  Hate 'em!)

As for anybody who took offense to these rankings:  sorry, guys.  Other than "best overall" and maybe "best defense", I spent about five minutes total on these superlatives.

I kinda feel like i've got to argue my team for quickest/best scary small ball team.

Oscar Robertson >>>>>> Bob Cousy/Tony Parker/Kevin Johnson

Pearl Monroe > Lenny Wilkens/Jerry Stackhouse/Kevin Johnson/Tony Parker

J Erving < MJ (however i consider Dr J the second best SG/SF ever behind him and Bird).

Glide Drexler > Nique/Melo

Elvin Hayes > Dwight Howard

Rip Hamilton can sub in for some sharpshooting.  At Center, I can also go a lot of different ways.  Jerry Lucas for rebounding, Rasheed for spacing, Parish for defense,   Laimbeer for toughness, or Ron Artest for ultra-quick lineup.

[Bahku]

I will say that, by a fairly significant margin, my favorite team is Redz'.  Call that mod bias, call that me sticking up for a friend, call that whatever you want, but I calls it like I see it.

I just think Portland has the best balance of offense, defense, ball-handling, ball movement, individual greatness, diversity of talent, clutch play, and fit.  There are a lot of great teams, but Portland looks the most like a team to me.  

So, my individual awards (not that anybody cares, since I'm no longer a panelist):

1.  Best team: Portland Trailblazers

2.  Best defensive team:  LA Lakers

3.  Best offensive team:  Denver Nuggets

4.  Best passing team: Portland (based upon it's front court starters)

5.  Best starting backcourt:  Chicago Bulls

6.  Best starting big men:  LA Lakers

7.  Most likeable team: Portland Trailblazers (I'm a sucker for Larry)

8.  Quickest team / scariest "small ball" team: Philadelphia 76ers

9.  Most talented team:  Miami Heat

10.  Most athletic team:  Tie:  Denver Nuggets & Dallas Mavericks

11.  Best three-point shooting team:  Indiana Pacers

12.  Most underrated team (including by me):  Atlanta Hawks

13.  Most underrated team that belongs in the top four:  Seattle SuperSonics

14.  Team that I should like, but for whatever reason I don't:  Memphis Grizzlies (it's the Lebron bias, I think)

15.  Team that I love and hate at the same time:  Boston Celtics  (Havlicek?  Tommy?  Duncan?  Love 'em!  Iverson?  Carter?  Hate 'em!)

As for anybody who took offense to these rankings:  sorry, guys.  Other than "best overall" and maybe "best defense", I spent about five minutes total on these superlatives.

I kinda feel like i've got to argue my team for quickest/best scary small ball team.

Oscar Robertson >>>>>> Bob Cousy/Tony Parker/Kevin Johnson

Pearl Monroe > Lenny Wilkens/Jerry Stackhouse/Kevin Johnson/Tony Parker

J Erving < MJ (however i consider Dr J the second best SG/SF ever behind him and Bird).

Glide Drexler > Nique/Melo

Elvin Hayes > Dwight Howard

Rip Hamilton can sub in for some sharpshooting.  At Center, I can also go a lot of different ways.  Jerry Lucas for rebounding, Rasheed for spacing, Parish for defense,   Laimbeer for toughness, or Ron Artest for ultra-quick lineup.

Sorry, but I just don't see it ... Clyde faster and stronger than 'Nique/'Melo? Elvin Hayes faster on the break than Dwight? Don't see that, either. Oscar is the man, and I'll concede that one, but Stack is extremely fast, and averages 10pts/game more than Monroe. To each his own, but speed/ball-handling is not something supported much by stats, and your leader runs the break ... I can't see any team out-breaking the Sixers with MJ running the floor and this quickness/talent around him. This team torches the court, and only has two players who average under 20 PPG ... I think Miami is the only other team with such a claim or shooting prowess to go along with speed.

[mgent]

I think according to some of your comments, you misunderstood, I wasn't saying I was the quicker team, although I think my team is EVERY bit as fast.  I meant I had the better overall small/quick-ball lineup.

Stackhouse is a little bit quicker, but Monroe is a better player, facilitator, and more efficient scorer.  The 10 more points I don't even take into equation because Monroe wasn't the number 1 option and attempted almost half as many shots (and neither would have close to the same usage on these teams).  Howard is also a little bit quicker than Hayes, but again I'd consider Hayes the better player.  Clyde isn't as strong as Nique or Melo, but he's definitely quicker (Nique would be close though) and again better.

Between Erving and MJ, I don't know athleticism-wise, I've heard them both be called the most athletic player of all time.  MJ is obviously better, but I really do think DR. J is second all-time ahead of Kobe (Dr. J plus Shaq? yikes).  Nonetheless, at the worst it cancels my advantages at the other 3 positions.

Then the biggest gap in talent is at PG, the most important position in a quick/fastbreak lineup.  Oscar is without a doubt taller, stronger, faster, a much better rebounder, a MUCH better scorer, and most importantly a better facilitator than the Cous.  I think my advantage here is way bigger than the advantage between MJ and Dr. J, never-mind my advantage in the other 3 positions.

I think Philly has the second best offensive team, athletic team, and quick-ball lineup.  In fact I'll even concede that you have the slightly better fast-break team (huge "head of the fast break" advantage be [dang]ed) simply because of Dwight Howard alone; I have no one fast and strong enough to check him, even though the Cheif was no slouch.  And you know I already gave you my vote for best overall team due to Dirk and your slightly better shooting.

PS,  All my guys scored 20 points except inactice Bill Laimbeer.  Maybe not in the years I picked, because I picked them pretty randomly only considering FG% and DRTG due to my urge to simulate some games on whatifsports.  Also because I didn't really take the pick one year thing too seriously, especially considering all the stats people listed don't really mean much in this format.

[Bahku]

TP to my Bud Mgent for the great break-down ... our teams are certainly strong in similar areas, and it would be a blast to see them go at it.

I would conversely challenge the "Best Offensive Team" nod by Roy, as the Sixers have a higher PPG, APG, and FT% than Denver, and are only slightly lower in FG% and 3PT%, (I also didn't pick the years where my players scored the most/game, or I could have had much higher averages than those given).

Two very comparable, (and in my humble opinion), superior teams offensively than the rest. I know people will come back with the defensive argument, but it has been proven many times that a great fast-break and prolific/efficient scoring team almost nullifies good defense, as they don't allow their opponents the time to get into their defensive sets.

____________________________________________________________


Also, a sincere thanks, (and TP), to Who for the input and kudos that follows ... it is appreciated more than you know. Your analysis carries a great deal of weight with Yours Truly, and I'm pleased that you like at least some of my moves in the draft.

A couple of picks that stood out -- David Thompson, Gail Goodrich, Jermaine O'Neal, Carmelo Anthony. I very much liked the Brandon Roy and Brad Daugherty pickups too.

I particularly loved the Carmelo Anthony pick. I think his scoring ability relative to the rest of the players taken is hugely under-rated. His size, power, quickness and agility + the all-round scoring arsenal. Melo is going to be a lethal scorer in this fantasy game.

I would only use that super-sized frontcourt - Dirk, Dwight and Gilmore - in certain situations.

Not as a main lineup.

As a useful alternative that they can throw at teams where appropriate in order to create matchup problems for their problem.

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Dirk Nowitzki, especially an older Dirk, is too slow and vulnerable defensively to play the SF position full time.

But in certain situations, he would be a useful option there especially alongside two big men like Dwight Howard and Artis Gilmore -- tough rebounders, quality defenders and shot blockers, low post scorers who can keep SF defenders on Dirk.

Dirk's ability to play all three frontcourt positions is a valuable trait. The vast majority of his court time should come at the PF position though.

Enjoying the idea of a super-sized frontcourt in Philadelphia with Artis Gilmore at center, Dwight Howard at the four and Dirk Nowitzki at the three spot.

Keep Michael Jordan in the backcourt and plug either a playmaking PG (in order to get two ball-handlers, passers, playmakers on the floor) alongside him or another big sized wing (to create even more matchup issues and stronger rebounding + team defense) in a big backcourt.

That would be an imposing lineup combination. Difficult to play against.

A couple of things that caught my eye as interesting combinations / lineups

(2) Philadelphia's 1-2 punch offensively with Michael Jordan and Dirk Nowitzki.

Jordan is going to have an advantage against every two guard in the league and with Dirk Nowitzki alongside him, wow, those two are going to be a nightmare to defend against. I can imagine them late in games playing a two man game. Lethal in pick and rolls. Devastating isolation scorers and quality passers when double teamed. Hugely efficient and very difficult to defend against.

Throw in Dominique Wilkins as a third scorer and Phily has one of the best foundations offensively. One of the early favourites for best offensive team.

[Who]

I consider Bill Walton to be one of the greatest facilitators in the History of this league. With Bill Russell being the greatest.

And in that particular season, I think Bill Walton had the best non-Russell facilitator season for a big man ever (note: Magic Johnson only perimeter player who I consider to rival it).

I'm genuinely shocked by this.  With all the great PGs in history, and SFs like Bird and Lebron who were amazing passers, you rate Walton at worst #3 all time?  He obviously had a very good season, but even if you ignore the 17 games he missed, is the 3.8 assists per game really enough to make him the 2nd or 3rd best facilitator of all-time, especially with his fairly pedestrian 18.6 points per game?

Obviously, you think the answer is yes.  Me, I'd much prefer Olajuwon or Robinson (29.8 points and 4.8 assists, in a much stronger era).  Maybe it's a difference in exposure to Walton, but I'd put his as on-par or below that of the great centers of the 80s and 90s.

By the term facilitator, as I am using it here, I mean someone who makes the game easier for their teammates + makes the largest non-scoring contributions to his teammates and puts his teammates in a position to succeed.

I would also consider Kevin Garnett one of the greatest facilitators (defense / rebounding / passing / highly skilled offense) of all-time and Dennis Rodman a step or two below those guys (as one of the all-time great facilitators = possession creator + elite defender).

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And by facilitator, I am talking about players whose prime function as a player is his non-scoring contributions and not prolific scoring.

Guys like Larry Bird and LeBron James were prolific scorers. I am not categorizing them the same way as I would categorize a Bill Russell. Not would I include a Hakeem Olajuwon or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar who were prolific scoring big men.

They approached the game differently.

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It's the way they approached the game of basketball. A mindset.

It's a choice of how they as a player try to win the game.

It's a style of play ... of how to win and lead their team to victory not by being an elite scorer, a main go-to guy who eats a lot of offensive possessions, but by facilitating the play for their teammates.

With Magic Johnson, and other PGs like Johnny Stockton, it was mainly with their passing (offensive non-scoring contributions). With big men, it is usually through defense / rebounding.

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It's a strength of conviction, of who they are as a player and how they dominate games ... that when times are tough, they are going to keep being that facilitator and not panic and try to score the ball at a high clip (Dwight Howard !!).

They are going to stay true to their game, to their skill-set, to their personality / character as a man ... an unshakeable belief in their way of playing the game of basketball ... and remaining a constant to their team and teammates. Being that rock solid foundation that is always there and always effecting games and creating opportunities for his teammates.

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It's the approach to the game that I am trying to capture by this description "facilitator".

Of how players led their team to success. Players like Bill Russell.




Note: Dwight Howard is a man who's name should be on this list (his defense + rebounding are incredible) but he lacks the mental makeup required to be this man on a consistent basis. At least to this juncture in his career.

He has too many people telling him he needs to be the next Shaquille O'Neal and a 30ppg scoring threat.

D.Howard doesn't have that strength of conviction, that trust in his teammates ability (or that he can affect their abilities), that he can lead a team to a title by being a Bill Russell-esque facilitator instead of a main scorer and go-to guy. He doesn't have the mentality, character / personality as a man or the understanding of the game required to be that type of player (to date, at least).

Bill Russell's intelligence and understanding of the game where light years ahead of other top NBA centers and it was a huge factor in his success. So was Bill Walton's but unfortunately injuries destroyed his career.

[Who]

We were really robbed of a great rivalry by Bill Walton's injuries.

The Russell-Chamberlain rivalry that dominated the 1960s. Bill Walton should have been that foe to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. To mean what Bill + Wilt meant to the NBA during the 60s during the mid to late 70s and into the early 1980s. With Bird and Magic taking over with the most incredible dual in NBA History ... And then Michael Jordan obliterating all challengers in the 1990s.

That is the way it should have been. Walton was that special a talent.

-------------------------------------------

I reckon that that Portland team would have won three straight titles if not for Walton's injuries.

And with Magic Johnson's entry to the NBA in 1979/80, we would have had an incredible rivalry setup between the Lakers + Blazers for a few years to come.

Those two teams in the West would have been what Boston and Philadelphia were to the East in the early 1980s.

----------------------------------------

It's a [dang] shame that we didn't get to see all of those things. That individual dual between B.Walton and K.Abdul-Jabbar + a potential three-peat Blazers team + a Blazers vs Lakers rivalry that would define the early 1980s basketball on the West coast.

I hate injuries.

[Moranis]

I will say that, by a fairly significant margin, my favorite team is Redz'.  Call that mod bias, call that me sticking up for a friend, call that whatever you want, but I calls it like I see it.

I just think Portland has the best balance of offense, defense, ball-handling, ball movement, individual greatness, diversity of talent, clutch play, and fit.  There are a lot of great teams, but Portland looks the most like a team to me.  

So, my individual awards (not that anybody cares, since I'm no longer a panelist):

1.  Best team: Portland Trailblazers

2.  Best defensive team:  LA Lakers

3.  Best offensive team:  Denver Nuggets

4.  Best passing team: Portland (based upon it's front court starters)

5.  Best starting backcourt:  Chicago Bulls

6.  Best starting big men:  LA Lakers

7.  Most likeable team: Portland Trailblazers (I'm a sucker for Larry)

8.  Quickest team / scariest "small ball" team: Philadelphia 76ers

9.  Most talented team:  Miami Heat

10.  Most athletic team:  Tie:  Denver Nuggets & Dallas Mavericks

11.  Best three-point shooting team:  Indiana Pacers

12.  Most underrated team (including by me):  Atlanta Hawks

13.  Most underrated team that belongs in the top four:  Seattle SuperSonics

14.  Team that I should like, but for whatever reason I don't:  Memphis Grizzlies (it's the Lebron bias, I think)

15.  Team that I love and hate at the same time:  Boston Celtics  (Havlicek?  Tommy?  Duncan?  Love 'em!  Iverson?  Carter?  Hate 'em!)

As for anybody who took offense to these rankings:  sorry, guys.  Other than "best overall" and maybe "best defense", I spent about five minutes total on these superlatives.

I kinda feel like i've got to argue my team for quickest/best scary small ball team.

Oscar Robertson >>>>>> Bob Cousy/Tony Parker/Kevin Johnson

Pearl Monroe > Lenny Wilkens/Jerry Stackhouse/Kevin Johnson/Tony Parker

J Erving < MJ (however i consider Dr J the second best SG/SF ever behind him and Bird).

Glide Drexler > Nique/Melo

Elvin Hayes > Dwight Howard

Rip Hamilton can sub in for some sharpshooting.  At Center, I can also go a lot of different ways.  Jerry Lucas for rebounding, Rasheed for spacing, Parish for defense,   Laimbeer for toughness, or Ron Artest for ultra-quick lineup.

Sorry, but I just don't see it ... Clyde faster and stronger than 'Nique/'Melo? Elvin Hayes faster on the break than Dwight? Don't see that, either. Oscar is the man, and I'll concede that one, but Stack is extremely fast, and averages 10pts/game more than Monroe. To each his own, but speed/ball-handling is not something supported much by stats, and your leader runs the break ... I can't see any team out-breaking the Sixers with MJ running the floor and this quickness/talent around him. This team torches the court, and only has two players who average under 20 PPG ... I think Miami is the only other team with such a claim or shooting prowess to go along with speed.

The Memphis Grizzlies only have 2 players below 20 ppg, Bobby Jones and Alvin Robertson. 

[Bahku]

I will say that, by a fairly significant margin, my favorite team is Redz'.  Call that mod bias, call that me sticking up for a friend, call that whatever you want, but I calls it like I see it.

I just think Portland has the best balance of offense, defense, ball-handling, ball movement, individual greatness, diversity of talent, clutch play, and fit.  There are a lot of great teams, but Portland looks the most like a team to me.  

So, my individual awards (not that anybody cares, since I'm no longer a panelist):

1.  Best team: Portland Trailblazers

2.  Best defensive team:  LA Lakers

3.  Best offensive team:  Denver Nuggets

4.  Best passing team: Portland (based upon it's front court starters)

5.  Best starting backcourt:  Chicago Bulls

6.  Best starting big men:  LA Lakers

7.  Most likeable team: Portland Trailblazers (I'm a sucker for Larry)

8.  Quickest team / scariest "small ball" team: Philadelphia 76ers

9.  Most talented team:  Miami Heat

10.  Most athletic team:  Tie:  Denver Nuggets & Dallas Mavericks

11.  Best three-point shooting team:  Indiana Pacers

12.  Most underrated team (including by me):  Atlanta Hawks

13.  Most underrated team that belongs in the top four:  Seattle SuperSonics

14.  Team that I should like, but for whatever reason I don't:  Memphis Grizzlies (it's the Lebron bias, I think)

15.  Team that I love and hate at the same time:  Boston Celtics  (Havlicek?  Tommy?  Duncan?  Love 'em!  Iverson?  Carter?  Hate 'em!)

As for anybody who took offense to these rankings:  sorry, guys.  Other than "best overall" and maybe "best defense", I spent about five minutes total on these superlatives.

I kinda feel like i've got to argue my team for quickest/best scary small ball team.

Oscar Robertson >>>>>> Bob Cousy/Tony Parker/Kevin Johnson

Pearl Monroe > Lenny Wilkens/Jerry Stackhouse/Kevin Johnson/Tony Parker

J Erving < MJ (however i consider Dr J the second best SG/SF ever behind him and Bird).

Glide Drexler > Nique/Melo

Elvin Hayes > Dwight Howard

Rip Hamilton can sub in for some sharpshooting.  At Center, I can also go a lot of different ways.  Jerry Lucas for rebounding, Rasheed for spacing, Parish for defense,   Laimbeer for toughness, or Ron Artest for ultra-quick lineup.

Sorry, but I just don't see it ... Clyde faster and stronger than 'Nique/'Melo? Elvin Hayes faster on the break than Dwight? Don't see that, either. Oscar is the man, and I'll concede that one, but Stack is extremely fast, and averages 10pts/game more than Monroe. To each his own, but speed/ball-handling is not something supported much by stats, and your leader runs the break ... I can't see any team out-breaking the Sixers with MJ running the floor and this quickness/talent around him. This team torches the court, and only has two players who average under 20 PPG ... I think Miami is the only other team with such a claim or shooting prowess to go along with speed.

The Memphis Grizzlies only have 2 players below 20 ppg, Bobby Jones and Alvin Robertson.  

Great team, (TP) ... but I was just going by what stats were listed on the team profiles thread, so I meant no slight to your boys, (I don't think every team is listed yet).

[33-00-32]

Ok the slow poke has finished, the Celtics roster has been moved to the team page. I'm ready for questions and I challenge anyone to say we are not the #1 Defensive team and best team overall. I might have a move or two that I would change if I did everything all over again but overall I couldn't be happier with this team. Thanks to Nick and all of the mods for making it all happen.

[Who]

Ok the slow poke has finished, the Celtics roster has been moved to the team page. I'm ready for questions and I challenge anyone to say we are not the #1 Defensive team and best team overall. I might have a move or two that I would change if I did everything all over again but overall I couldn't be happier with this team. Thanks to Nick and all of the mods for making it all happen.

I'd like to see your team start Vince Carter at the two. I think that is a stronger lineup overall than your current one with Billups in that starting lineup. 

The main reason would be to keep W.Frazier at the point and Hondo at the three. W.Frazier, in particular, who I think his value decreases when used as a two guard instead of a big powerful defensive PG.

Hondo is fine at either wing position but I'd keep him at the SF because I think the starters at that position taper off a bit after the top 6/7 guys and that having a guy as good as Hondo there is a nice advantage for you. Plus, I don't like the idea of A.English or P.Stojakovic starting. Much prefer Vince's game.

I think Vince with his size (6-7, wide shoulders, strong body, incredible explosiveness) is a very tough guy for some SGs to matchup against physically. Add in his very talented skill-set and he is a very nice 4th / 5th best starter for any team.

[Rondo2287]

Not surprised I didn't do too well in this as I have just started watching BBall following the 2002 run to the ECF.  But fun nonetheless.  Good job to everyone involved.  And I still think Shaq would dominate

[Moranis]

Ok the slow poke has finished, the Celtics roster has been moved to the team page. I'm ready for questions and I challenge anyone to say we are not the #1 Defensive team and best team overall. I might have a move or two that I would change if I did everything all over again but overall I couldn't be happier with this team. Thanks to Nick and all of the mods for making it all happen.

I'd like to see your team start Vince Carter at the two. I think that is a stronger lineup overall than your current one with Billups in that starting lineup. 

The main reason would be to keep W.Frazier at the point and Hondo at the three. W.Frazier, in particular, who I think his value decreases when used as a two guard instead of a big powerful defensive PG.

Hondo is fine at either wing position but I'd keep him at the SF because I think the starters at that position taper off a bit after the top 6/7 guys and that having a guy as good as Hondo there is a nice advantage for you. Plus, I don't like the idea of A.English or P.Stojakovic starting. Much prefer Vince's game.

I think Vince with his size (6-7, wide shoulders, strong body, incredible explosiveness) is a very tough guy for some SGs to matchup against physically. Add in his very talented skill-set and he is a very nice 4th / 5th best starter for any team.

I think I have him beat no matter who he starts at the wings and the point.