2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Fafnir]

But to put a pin in this whole thing...are you contending that there is likelihood that Kareem averages 35 points and 17 boards in 1985?

If 84-85 Kareem played 44 minutes per game instead of 33 minutes per game his numbers would have been 29 and 10.5 and he was 37 years old (real numbers 22/8).

I think if he was 13 years younger like he was in his bucks days he could have done it. (pace and touches allowing)

Its not like Kareem's per 36 are that shockingly inflated that season. 28/13

[mgent]

I think people are forgetting this.  It's what's causing guys like Wallace, Cowens, Barkley, etc. to become overrated.  All excellent players in their eras, but the only way to compare teams in this format is to look at matchups.  And some of those guys aren't gonna be good-no-matter-who-they-play players; they're gonna end up struggling against certain matchups.

Why is Charles Barkley overrated? What era did he need to dominate in order to prove he's an incredible power forward?

Who knows?  The only way you can rank dominance for certain is if you're talking about players that played in every era, against every "best of the best" player.  I can't say Barkley would struggle against Mr. 7-ft so-and-so anymore than you can say he would still be able to dominate against him.

[GreenFaith1819]

Regarding the generational gap thing, I do think it'll be difficult to gauge how an early 70s Kareem would fare against an early 80s Moses.  

I really see things different from post ABA merger NBA and pre-merger stuff.  If you're taking pre-merger Kareem, its a lot tougher to project how he would play against a '82-83 Moses.

Honestly, I think its a great move to pick the pre-merger Kareem to throw up against Moses since it makes it much more difficult to use head to heads to have any bearing on the way I'm going to see things.

I think Moses Malone would still bother Kareem quite a lot.

His highly physical, powerful and relentless style of play versus Kareem's 7-2, even less bulk (225-235lbs?), thin frame and finesse style of play ... it's just a really tough matchup for Kareem.

Yes, it would be a tough matchup - for Kareem. But I remember Kareem battling a slightly bigger Wilt to a standstill. I saw a few clips of them head to head where Wilt seemed to be putting on weight.

I think I'd throw a combo of Kareem/JO/KG out there, with JO playing Moses. Kareem would play the PF (in this case, McAdoo), and KG would do SF or weakside defender.

[StartOrien]

I think people are forgetting this.  It's what's causing guys like Wallace, Cowens, Barkley, etc. to become overrated.  All excellent players in their eras, but the only way to compare teams in this format is to look at matchups.  And some of those guys aren't gonna be good-no-matter-who-they-play players; they're gonna end up struggling against certain matchups.

Why is Charles Barkley overrated? What era did he need to dominate in order to prove he's an incredible power forward?

Who knows?  The only way you can rank dominance for certain is if you're talking about players that played in every era, against every "best of the best" player.  I can't say Barkley would struggle against Mr. 7-ft so-and-so anymore than you can say he would still be able to dominate against him.

Charles Barkley dominated two completely different eras filled with elite bigs and was consistently among the leagues best players.

He went 10 straight years on either 1st of 2nd team All NBA from 85-95.

[KCattheStripe]

[Who]

But to put a pin in this whole thing...are you contending that there is likelihood that Kareem averages 35 points and 17 boards in 1985?

The game was faster in 1970 than in 1985.

On average, there were 7800 FGAs and 4200 rebounds in 1972 versus 7300 FGAs and 3600 rebounds in 1985. You'd need to adjust down slightly for pace.

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Kareem's final top level season was in 1980. He last MVP caliber year. By the time he faced Moses Malone in 1983, he was already 35. By the time LA beat Boston for the first time, Kareem was 38. When he won his last title, he was 41.

It would be a mistake to compare his Lakers years from 1981 onwards to his past and consider them the more indicative of Kareem's true capacity during his prime. They weren't.

His best years where with the Milwaukee Bucks and his early LA Lakers seasons. Kareem was a lot more active in those days, as a rebounder and as a help defender, than he was during his time alongside Magic Johnson. Just youth and athleticism. And gradual decline of both.

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I firmly believe Kareem would have put up around 30 points a game and 14-15 boards a game, at his peak, in the mid-1980s if prime was transported to that time.

[mgent]

I think people are forgetting this.  It's what's causing guys like Wallace, Cowens, Barkley, etc. to become overrated.  All excellent players in their eras, but the only way to compare teams in this format is to look at matchups.  And some of those guys aren't gonna be good-no-matter-who-they-play players; they're gonna end up struggling against certain matchups.

Why is Charles Barkley overrated? What era did he need to dominate in order to prove he's an incredible power forward?

Who knows?  The only way you can rank dominance for certain is if you're talking about players that played in every era, against every "best of the best" player.  I can't say Barkley would struggle against Mr. 7-ft so-and-so anymore than you can say he would still be able to dominate against him.

Charles Barkley dominated two completely different eras filled with elite bigs and was consistently among the leagues best players.

Yeah but my point was that he wasn't playing the best players ever night in and night out.  All we can do is speculate, and my speculation would be that his height wouldn't allow him to dominate against the best of the best in the way that another dominate player with normal size would be able to.

[Moranis]

I firmly believe Kareem would have put up around 30 points a game and 14-15 boards a game, at his peak, in the 1980s if prime was transported to that time.

so he would be like Moses then?

[GreenFaith1819]

But to put a pin in this whole thing...are you contending that there is likelihood that Kareem averages 35 points and 17 boards in 1985?

The game was faster in 1970 than in 1985.

On average, there were 7800 FGAs and 4200 rebounds in 1972 versus 7300 FGAs and 3600 rebounds in 1985. You'd need to adjust down slightly for pace.

-----------------------------------------------

Kareem's final top level season was in 1980. He last MVP caliber year. By the time he faced Moses Malone in 1983, he was already 35. By the time LA beat Boston for the first time, Kareem was 38. When he won his last title, he was 41.

It would be a mistake to compare his Lakers years from 1981 onwards to his past and consider them the more indicative of Kareem's true capacity during his prime. They weren't.

His best years where with the Milwaukee Bucks and his early LA Lakers seasons. Kareem was a lot more active in those days, as a rebounder and as a help defender, than he was during his time alongside Magic Johnson. Just youth and athleticism. And gradual decline of both.

----------------------------------------------

I firmly believe Kareem would have put up around 30 points a game and 14-15 boards a game, at his peak, in the mid-1980s if prime was transported to that time.

Sweet!

Now all we have to do is find one of those Delorean-type Back to the Future cars.

[Moranis]

Why is Charles Barkley overrated? What era did he need to dominate in order to prove he's an incredible power forward?

I can tell you the player..and its Karl Malone.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=malonka01

That would've sewn it up nicely.

Do struggles against one particular elite power forward constitute being overrated?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barklch01.html

Malone is really the only elite PF whose prime overlapped with Barkley's prime.  I think it is actually a pretty good gauge for that reason.

[Who]

I firmly believe Kareem would have put up around 30 points a game and 14-15 boards a game, at his peak, in the 1980s if prime was transported to that time.

so he would be like Moses then?

More efficient offensively. Better passer too.

[StartOrien]

Yeah but my point was that he wasn't playing the best players ever night in and night out.  All we can do is speculate, and my speculation would be that his height wouldn't allow him to dominate against the best of the best in the way that another dominate player with normal size would be able to.

Of course he's not going to dominate like he did, no one would.

But he had a 16 year career that has him going against a vast majority of these elite bigs, and he did pretty well against them. I don't see how his height would be that much more of an issue than it was during his playing years.

[Who]

Starting Centers, By Tier -- my rankings

My top tier at the Center position is Russell, Kareem and Wilt.

The second tier is Hakeem, Shaquille and Moses.

Undecided on whether Bill Walton is first tier or second tier. Since this is a one season look rather than the duration of one's career, Walton ranks higher in my esteem [as does Wilt].

Third tier David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and maybe Dwight Howard.

Then there is Robert Parish and Dikembe Mutombo to round out the fourth tier.

[mgent]

Yeah but my point was that he wasn't playing the best players ever night in and night out.  All we can do is speculate, and my speculation would be that his height wouldn't allow him to dominate against the best of the best in the way that another dominate player with normal size would be able to.

Of course he's not going to dominate like he did, no one would.

But he had a 16 year career that has him going against a vast majority of these elite bigs, and he did pretty well against them. I don't see how his height would be that much more of an issue than it was during his playing years.

Because it would be even more magnified against the all-time greats.

I don't know how else to say this.

I'm not saying other guys wouldn't play worse also.  I'm saying that Barkley would play worse AND his height would be an extra factor that other guys wouldn't have to worry about.

[StartOrien]

Why is Charles Barkley overrated? What era did he need to dominate in order to prove he's an incredible power forward?

I can tell you the player..and its Karl Malone.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=malonka01

That would've sewn it up nicely.

Do struggles against one particular elite power forward constitute being overrated?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barklch01.html

Malone is really the only elite PF whose prime overlapped with Barkley's prime.  I think it is actually a pretty good gauge for that reason.

Paying more attention to the game log, they're two elite PF's, the discrepancy between their numbers really comes up towards the end of Barkley's career. If you want to gage Barkley's effectiveness w/ his numbers against Karl Malone I'd say that's fair and I'm fine with it.