Why can't Boston attract a Tier 1 Free Agent?!

[EJPLAYA]

This is a ridiculous statement that some people around here keep bringing up. Since the CBA has been put in place the C's have never been in a position to land a top tier FA. When have they had cap room since the early 90's? the answer is never .

This is all that needs to be said.

exactly.  this answers the question in a nice, neat (and fairly politely considering the topic) package.

I, for one, would appreciate the OP definitively stating exactly which top tier FA the C's missed out on AND explain how the C's missed out on that FA.  Personally, I don't think a single example can be produced which makes this thread moot.  

Now if they have lots of cap room in 2012 and Rondo/PP as a combo to lure a top FA and don't land a top FA (if one is available), then there may be a point to this discussion.

Considering that we haven't signed ANY top tier free agent then the answer is ALL of them. My question to the group was WHY? My theory is that no one wants to live in Boston. I wanted to see what other opinions were out there. Considering that many people on here's idea for post Big 3 success is to sit and wait for all these top tier free agents to come running to play with Rondo, and history has shown that they don't ever come here, I think it is a fair question. If there is a valid reason then we're better off to try and trade Rondo and retool that way. If there is not then maybe we can have some optimism.

EJ, you haven't answered the question.  Who could they have signed and how did they miss out on signing them?  simple question.

Just because we DIDN'T sign one, doesn't mean we COULD have signed one.  You need to have the available cap space to sign a top level FA.  Period.  At what time did this team have that kind of cap space available?  to solve that dilemna for you, they haven't.  Period.  

You can [peeve] and moan about this team not signing one all you want and claim that it's bad management, poor attitudes towards the city or fans or franchise or whatever but that doesn't change the fact that the C's have not had the $ to be active in the chase for top FA's.  

I just don't understand why you're saying this team has missed out on ALL the FA's.  That's not even a remotely accurate statement.  Do you honestly think a player, such as Lebron for example, would even consider coming to Boston, or any team for that matter, for MLE money?  That's what you're proposing if you are seriously asking why Boston didn't sign him or any other FA in the past 20 years.

You guys are missing out on how this works! You don't look up and say "we have cap space. Let's see what Tier 1 free agents are out there and try and see if they'll come to Boston". Miami, NY, and Chicago PUT themselves in a situation where they COULD sign one and then went after them. Based on information from the players camps everyone knew where Lebron was interested in going. They then made moves to put themselves in a situation where they could sign them. My point is, that NEVER have we been in a situation where an upcoming Tier 1 free agent has floated out there that they want to come to Boston. Are you trying to tell me that since the early 90's that we have not had the ability to make some moves to clear cap space if one of them had? If Miami can keep Dwayne Wade and clear enough cap space to sign not only Lebron but also Bosh, surely they would have been able to make adjustments to keep Pierce and sign ONE. We didn't make these moves because no interest was ever expressed. No one wanted to sign with us. So in answer to your question. We missed out on ALL of them because not one of them had enough interest in Boston to even throw us out as a possibility.

wow , why even have a discussion if you can't process anything anyone else says and just constantly stick to this one untrue statement that no one wants to come to Boston.

The reason big name players didn't want/couldn't come here in the 90's is....

1)The C's were awful

2) Reggie Lewis passed and that messed up the cap situation for a few years because Stern wouldn't give the C's an exemption.

3) By the time PP was becoming an allstar , the C's had given Antoine a huge contract along with players like Travis Knight and Vin Baker. They had horrible management in place( Rick Pitino, Chris Wallace). They had to then sign PP to a max contract and were capped out .

This is the reason Danny Ainge was brought in . Danny traded away most of that capped out early 2000's team for young players and draft picks and expiring contracts .  He then went on to draft

Big Al
Perk
Rondo
West
Powe
BBD
Gomes

Even with all of these young players , the c's were still over the cap from the past management( Rick Pitino, Chris Wallace).

When the C's missed out on the top 2 picks in the 2007 NBA Draft ( Oden , Durant) he then shifted into win now mode. He traded all that young talent he acquired for 2 hall of famers and a 5 year championship window. During this Championship window many players have chosen the C's over other very good bball teams. guys like...

Rasheed
Shaq
Nate Robinson( wanted to be traded here )
JO

Sure they are no longer tier 1 players, but it shows that if a player believes he has a chance to win he will come to Boston.

The C's will have a boatload of money to offer Dwight Howard, along with another superstar player to attract him (Rondo) and a Players coach(hopefully) to entice him as well.

Orlando is going to run into similar problems that the C's have suffered from in the past because they will be capped out until at least 2013 with no real ability to acquire another superstar like Melo or Chris Paul to put next to him. Dwight could bail in 2012 if he can't make it back to the Finals in the next few seasons .

Danny has shown he knows what he is doing , have a little faith in him to get us another star to team up with Rondo

well put RH.

let's try a different approach EJ.  You're stating the C's didn't land any top FA's because none of the ones that were available said they wanted to leave their current teams to come to Boston and that Boston didn't clear cap space to get those FA's.  At least that's how your latest rebuttal is coming across.

Again, to my last question to you, who did they miss out on?  no one.  the movement of top players as FA's is rare.  This past offseason is a rarity as someone else pointed out long ago in this thread.  most top players move via trades, not FA. 

To go to your issue that the C's should clear cap space to be ready to sign big name FA's -- other than just for their own financial wellbeing as a franchise, WHY?  nobody really moves as a FA.  The recent moves you've seen I feel fairly confident are due to other players seeing the success of the C's and Lakers in accumulating a number of talented players and these other players want to emulate that success.  Hence Bron, Bosh, Amare, Boozer all left to try to get into that situation.  Granted Amare is waiting on CP3 and Melo in NY but that's the concept.

I think you're way off base on blaming the C's for not clearing cap space in the hopes of luring a rare top-level FA that actually leaves their team and even further off base by stating that no one wants to play in Boston because no one has said they want to in order to get the C's to clear cap space.  This line of thinking just boggles my mind.

Come on. Saying no one is ridiculous. You know that's not true. They missed out on Shaq when he went to LA. There's one for you. I'm not going to name every single free agent out there to prove we didn't sign them.

I have complete confidence that Danny will do his best to try and improve this team. He did it getting Ray and KG. He didn't do it however landing a big fish in free agency. Just some over the hill little ones. Yes they help our team, but as you have so effectively pointed out the only reason they are here is because they believe they can be a small piece in collecting a ring. If we weren't contenders, like we weren't in the 90's, they wouldn't be here.

My opinion is that when all that is left is a very old PP and Rondo, we are no longer a contender even with 1 superstar. We are the Dallas Mavericks. We'll win some games, but not really contend for a title. When that happens we will once again not attract a Tier 1 free agent and likely not even get a Tier 2 free agent. We will be stuck in the 90's again and Rondo will walk shortly after. If you are willing to take a chance that we can get a superstar and 2 tier 2 guys to come to the cold city of Boston, then be my guest. I doubt Danny will be so foolish though. Trading Rondo after 2 more years when KG and Ray are gone and start rebuilding seems to be the smarter way.

[DavorCroatiaFan]

In hoopshype salary section:
Pierce:
2010/11: 13,9mil
2011/12: 15,3mil
2012/13: 16,8mil
2013/14: 15,3mil.
Its this true? To me it doesnt makes sence that Pauls salary is at max in time where we need the most cap space. I would hate to see that this 3mil is a reason why we wouldn't be able to offer max contract in 2012. or resign Perk/BBD.

[guava_wrench]

In hoopshype salary section:
Pierce:
2010/11: 13,9mil
2011/12: 15,3mil
2012/13: 16,8mil
2013/14: 15,3mil.
Its this true? To me it doesnt makes sence that Pauls salary is at max in time where we need the most cap space. I would hate to see that this 3mil is a reason why we wouldn't be able to offer max contract in 2012. or resign Perk/BBD.

It makes a lot of sense.

The team is clearly built to win up to next year. After that, the next year (2012-13) will likely be a down year with most of our vets leaving. We will not pay luxury tax that year, so it is better to pay Pierce when there is no tax penalty.

Re-signing Perk or BBD does not require cap space and that is an issue for this offseason, not next.

[JBcat]

I just think it's very rare for a "tier 1" player if you define it as a superstar in his prime to switch teams during free agency.  This offseason was very rare and what Pat Riley did clearing all but what 3 contracts or so in order to sign James, Bosh, and re-sign Wade I don't think has ever happened before.

I've gathered a list of some of the best players of the last 20 years or so with the current soft cap rules.  

Stockton, Payton, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Jordan, Drexler, Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Pippen, Grant Hill, Dominque Wilkens, Chris Mullin, Detlef Schrempf, Karl Malone, L Johnson, Barkley, Rodman, Kemp, H Grant, Olajuwon, Shaq, D Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Iverson, Billups, Nash, Kidd, C Paul, D Williams, Rondo, KG, Duncan, Bryant, Dirk, James, Bosh, Melo, McGrady, Carter, Pierce, Webber, Marion, Stoudemire, Gasol, Ray Allen, Wade, Brand, B Davis, Boozer, and Arenas.

Here is roughly 50 of the best players from the last 20 years.  This past offseason we saw Bosh,  James, Boozer, and Amare all leave via free agency but after that there are not that many star players that have left their teams via free agency.   Brand and B Davis did but they were widely considered risks and have not fullfilled expectations.   Pippen and Wilkens left via free agency late in their careers.  The Mavs didn't pony up for Nash but he wasn't the Nash then that we know now.  

So Shaq was a big free agent that switched teams in the mid 90s.   Grant Hill was another in 2000.   Anybody else from this list or others you can think of?  

My point is that it's just rare when you see a "tier 1" star free agent switch teams via free agency.   It's not like baseball where you see that somewhat frequently.  

[More Banners]

Dwight Howard might be the only UFA in 2012 that isn't a PG, but (under current rules) if we're under the cap by that much, we can simply absorb a contract in trade without matching salaries.  That opens things up quite a bit...

...and if we end up holding on to Perk and BBD at reasonable money, a star-level talent at the wing wouldn't be bad...

...and there is still a possiblity that Ray sticks around as 6th man...

...or that Ray and KG duke it out for 6th man of the year honors...

[slamtheking]

This is a ridiculous statement that some people around here keep bringing up. Since the CBA has been put in place the C's have never been in a position to land a top tier FA. When have they had cap room since the early 90's? the answer is never .

This is all that needs to be said.

exactly.  this answers the question in a nice, neat (and fairly politely considering the topic) package.

I, for one, would appreciate the OP definitively stating exactly which top tier FA the C's missed out on AND explain how the C's missed out on that FA.  Personally, I don't think a single example can be produced which makes this thread moot.  

Now if they have lots of cap room in 2012 and Rondo/PP as a combo to lure a top FA and don't land a top FA (if one is available), then there may be a point to this discussion.

Considering that we haven't signed ANY top tier free agent then the answer is ALL of them. My question to the group was WHY? My theory is that no one wants to live in Boston. I wanted to see what other opinions were out there. Considering that many people on here's idea for post Big 3 success is to sit and wait for all these top tier free agents to come running to play with Rondo, and history has shown that they don't ever come here, I think it is a fair question. If there is a valid reason then we're better off to try and trade Rondo and retool that way. If there is not then maybe we can have some optimism.

EJ, you haven't answered the question.  Who could they have signed and how did they miss out on signing them?  simple question.

Just because we DIDN'T sign one, doesn't mean we COULD have signed one.  You need to have the available cap space to sign a top level FA.  Period.  At what time did this team have that kind of cap space available?  to solve that dilemna for you, they haven't.  Period.  

You can [peeve] and moan about this team not signing one all you want and claim that it's bad management, poor attitudes towards the city or fans or franchise or whatever but that doesn't change the fact that the C's have not had the $ to be active in the chase for top FA's.  

I just don't understand why you're saying this team has missed out on ALL the FA's.  That's not even a remotely accurate statement.  Do you honestly think a player, such as Lebron for example, would even consider coming to Boston, or any team for that matter, for MLE money?  That's what you're proposing if you are seriously asking why Boston didn't sign him or any other FA in the past 20 years.

You guys are missing out on how this works! You don't look up and say "we have cap space. Let's see what Tier 1 free agents are out there and try and see if they'll come to Boston". Miami, NY, and Chicago PUT themselves in a situation where they COULD sign one and then went after them. Based on information from the players camps everyone knew where Lebron was interested in going. They then made moves to put themselves in a situation where they could sign them. My point is, that NEVER have we been in a situation where an upcoming Tier 1 free agent has floated out there that they want to come to Boston. Are you trying to tell me that since the early 90's that we have not had the ability to make some moves to clear cap space if one of them had? If Miami can keep Dwayne Wade and clear enough cap space to sign not only Lebron but also Bosh, surely they would have been able to make adjustments to keep Pierce and sign ONE. We didn't make these moves because no interest was ever expressed. No one wanted to sign with us. So in answer to your question. We missed out on ALL of them because not one of them had enough interest in Boston to even throw us out as a possibility.

wow , why even have a discussion if you can't process anything anyone else says and just constantly stick to this one untrue statement that no one wants to come to Boston.

The reason big name players didn't want/couldn't come here in the 90's is....

1)The C's were awful

2) Reggie Lewis passed and that messed up the cap situation for a few years because Stern wouldn't give the C's an exemption.

3) By the time PP was becoming an allstar , the C's had given Antoine a huge contract along with players like Travis Knight and Vin Baker. They had horrible management in place( Rick Pitino, Chris Wallace). They had to then sign PP to a max contract and were capped out .

This is the reason Danny Ainge was brought in . Danny traded away most of that capped out early 2000's team for young players and draft picks and expiring contracts .  He then went on to draft

Big Al
Perk
Rondo
West
Powe
BBD
Gomes

Even with all of these young players , the c's were still over the cap from the past management( Rick Pitino, Chris Wallace).

When the C's missed out on the top 2 picks in the 2007 NBA Draft ( Oden , Durant) he then shifted into win now mode. He traded all that young talent he acquired for 2 hall of famers and a 5 year championship window. During this Championship window many players have chosen the C's over other very good bball teams. guys like...

Rasheed
Shaq
Nate Robinson( wanted to be traded here )
JO

Sure they are no longer tier 1 players, but it shows that if a player believes he has a chance to win he will come to Boston.

The C's will have a boatload of money to offer Dwight Howard, along with another superstar player to attract him (Rondo) and a Players coach(hopefully) to entice him as well.

Orlando is going to run into similar problems that the C's have suffered from in the past because they will be capped out until at least 2013 with no real ability to acquire another superstar like Melo or Chris Paul to put next to him. Dwight could bail in 2012 if he can't make it back to the Finals in the next few seasons .

Danny has shown he knows what he is doing , have a little faith in him to get us another star to team up with Rondo

well put RH.

let's try a different approach EJ.  You're stating the C's didn't land any top FA's because none of the ones that were available said they wanted to leave their current teams to come to Boston and that Boston didn't clear cap space to get those FA's.  At least that's how your latest rebuttal is coming across.

Again, to my last question to you, who did they miss out on?  no one.  the movement of top players as FA's is rare.  This past offseason is a rarity as someone else pointed out long ago in this thread.  most top players move via trades, not FA. 

To go to your issue that the C's should clear cap space to be ready to sign big name FA's -- other than just for their own financial wellbeing as a franchise, WHY?  nobody really moves as a FA.  The recent moves you've seen I feel fairly confident are due to other players seeing the success of the C's and Lakers in accumulating a number of talented players and these other players want to emulate that success.  Hence Bron, Bosh, Amare, Boozer all left to try to get into that situation.  Granted Amare is waiting on CP3 and Melo in NY but that's the concept.

I think you're way off base on blaming the C's for not clearing cap space in the hopes of luring a rare top-level FA that actually leaves their team and even further off base by stating that no one wants to play in Boston because no one has said they want to in order to get the C's to clear cap space.  This line of thinking just boggles my mind.

Come on. Saying no one is ridiculous. You know that's not true. They missed out on Shaq when he went to LA. There's one for you. I'm not going to name every single free agent out there to prove we didn't sign them.

I have complete confidence that Danny will do his best to try and improve this team. He did it getting Ray and KG. He didn't do it however landing a big fish in free agency. Just some over the hill little ones. Yes they help our team, but as you have so effectively pointed out the only reason they are here is because they believe they can be a small piece in collecting a ring. If we weren't contenders, like we weren't in the 90's, they wouldn't be here.

My opinion is that when all that is left is a very old PP and Rondo, we are no longer a contender even with 1 superstar. We are the Dallas Mavericks. We'll win some games, but not really contend for a title. When that happens we will once again not attract a Tier 1 free agent and likely not even get a Tier 2 free agent. We will be stuck in the 90's again and Rondo will walk shortly after. If you are willing to take a chance that we can get a superstar and 2 tier 2 guys to come to the cold city of Boston, then be my guest. I doubt Danny will be so foolish though. Trading Rondo after 2 more years when KG and Ray are gone and start rebuilding seems to be the smarter way.

ok, we're getting somewhere now.  You're using Shaq as your example.  fine.  Exactly how much cap room did Boston have when he was a FA?  They didn't have the room.  LA did.  Hence, they get Shaq.  You can just say that Shaq was a top level FA that switched teams and because Boston didn't make cap room available to get into a bidding war with LA, that Boston can't draw top level FA's.  That makes no sense.  
To hold that viewpoint, you've either got to believe that the C's have an opportunity to move enough contracts to get cap space OR the team should always have lots of available cap space each year just in case a top level FA becomes available.  Neither scenario is realistic because you either have to purge the team of all your players (good and bad) to make room or sign players to 1-year deals each year.  In either case, you foster a crappy team that no one would want to be associated with at all--even any good players you happen to draft (why would they want to stay?)

I think you are way off base here.  You haven't got a sound basis for you argument.  Now in 2012, if the C's have lots of cap room AND there's some top level FA's that choose to go elsewhere, this debate would be more understandable.

oh, not to dodge your other comment but yes, I'm saying no one was available.  Shaq's not a valid example.  If you can provide a year when the C's had cap room (which there aren't) AND the top-level FA that signed elsewhere that year, that would really help make your point here but the key part of your point that's not getting any traction is that the C's haven't had cap room to pursue anyone.

[EJPLAYA]

This is a ridiculous statement that some people around here keep bringing up. Since the CBA has been put in place the C's have never been in a position to land a top tier FA. When have they had cap room since the early 90's? the answer is never .

This is all that needs to be said.

exactly.  this answers the question in a nice, neat (and fairly politely considering the topic) package.

I, for one, would appreciate the OP definitively stating exactly which top tier FA the C's missed out on AND explain how the C's missed out on that FA.  Personally, I don't think a single example can be produced which makes this thread moot.  

Now if they have lots of cap room in 2012 and Rondo/PP as a combo to lure a top FA and don't land a top FA (if one is available), then there may be a point to this discussion.

Considering that we haven't signed ANY top tier free agent then the answer is ALL of them. My question to the group was WHY? My theory is that no one wants to live in Boston. I wanted to see what other opinions were out there. Considering that many people on here's idea for post Big 3 success is to sit and wait for all these top tier free agents to come running to play with Rondo, and history has shown that they don't ever come here, I think it is a fair question. If there is a valid reason then we're better off to try and trade Rondo and retool that way. If there is not then maybe we can have some optimism.

EJ, you haven't answered the question.  Who could they have signed and how did they miss out on signing them?  simple question.

Just because we DIDN'T sign one, doesn't mean we COULD have signed one.  You need to have the available cap space to sign a top level FA.  Period.  At what time did this team have that kind of cap space available?  to solve that dilemna for you, they haven't.  Period.  

You can [peeve] and moan about this team not signing one all you want and claim that it's bad management, poor attitudes towards the city or fans or franchise or whatever but that doesn't change the fact that the C's have not had the $ to be active in the chase for top FA's.  

I just don't understand why you're saying this team has missed out on ALL the FA's.  That's not even a remotely accurate statement.  Do you honestly think a player, such as Lebron for example, would even consider coming to Boston, or any team for that matter, for MLE money?  That's what you're proposing if you are seriously asking why Boston didn't sign him or any other FA in the past 20 years.

You guys are missing out on how this works! You don't look up and say "we have cap space. Let's see what Tier 1 free agents are out there and try and see if they'll come to Boston". Miami, NY, and Chicago PUT themselves in a situation where they COULD sign one and then went after them. Based on information from the players camps everyone knew where Lebron was interested in going. They then made moves to put themselves in a situation where they could sign them. My point is, that NEVER have we been in a situation where an upcoming Tier 1 free agent has floated out there that they want to come to Boston. Are you trying to tell me that since the early 90's that we have not had the ability to make some moves to clear cap space if one of them had? If Miami can keep Dwayne Wade and clear enough cap space to sign not only Lebron but also Bosh, surely they would have been able to make adjustments to keep Pierce and sign ONE. We didn't make these moves because no interest was ever expressed. No one wanted to sign with us. So in answer to your question. We missed out on ALL of them because not one of them had enough interest in Boston to even throw us out as a possibility.

wow , why even have a discussion if you can't process anything anyone else says and just constantly stick to this one untrue statement that no one wants to come to Boston.

The reason big name players didn't want/couldn't come here in the 90's is....

1)The C's were awful

2) Reggie Lewis passed and that messed up the cap situation for a few years because Stern wouldn't give the C's an exemption.

3) By the time PP was becoming an allstar , the C's had given Antoine a huge contract along with players like Travis Knight and Vin Baker. They had horrible management in place( Rick Pitino, Chris Wallace). They had to then sign PP to a max contract and were capped out .

This is the reason Danny Ainge was brought in . Danny traded away most of that capped out early 2000's team for young players and draft picks and expiring contracts .  He then went on to draft

Big Al
Perk
Rondo
West
Powe
BBD
Gomes

Even with all of these young players , the c's were still over the cap from the past management( Rick Pitino, Chris Wallace).

When the C's missed out on the top 2 picks in the 2007 NBA Draft ( Oden , Durant) he then shifted into win now mode. He traded all that young talent he acquired for 2 hall of famers and a 5 year championship window. During this Championship window many players have chosen the C's over other very good bball teams. guys like...

Rasheed
Shaq
Nate Robinson( wanted to be traded here )
JO

Sure they are no longer tier 1 players, but it shows that if a player believes he has a chance to win he will come to Boston.

The C's will have a boatload of money to offer Dwight Howard, along with another superstar player to attract him (Rondo) and a Players coach(hopefully) to entice him as well.

Orlando is going to run into similar problems that the C's have suffered from in the past because they will be capped out until at least 2013 with no real ability to acquire another superstar like Melo or Chris Paul to put next to him. Dwight could bail in 2012 if he can't make it back to the Finals in the next few seasons .

Danny has shown he knows what he is doing , have a little faith in him to get us another star to team up with Rondo

well put RH.

let's try a different approach EJ.  You're stating the C's didn't land any top FA's because none of the ones that were available said they wanted to leave their current teams to come to Boston and that Boston didn't clear cap space to get those FA's.  At least that's how your latest rebuttal is coming across.

Again, to my last question to you, who did they miss out on?  no one.  the movement of top players as FA's is rare.  This past offseason is a rarity as someone else pointed out long ago in this thread.  most top players move via trades, not FA. 

To go to your issue that the C's should clear cap space to be ready to sign big name FA's -- other than just for their own financial wellbeing as a franchise, WHY?  nobody really moves as a FA.  The recent moves you've seen I feel fairly confident are due to other players seeing the success of the C's and Lakers in accumulating a number of talented players and these other players want to emulate that success.  Hence Bron, Bosh, Amare, Boozer all left to try to get into that situation.  Granted Amare is waiting on CP3 and Melo in NY but that's the concept.

I think you're way off base on blaming the C's for not clearing cap space in the hopes of luring a rare top-level FA that actually leaves their team and even further off base by stating that no one wants to play in Boston because no one has said they want to in order to get the C's to clear cap space.  This line of thinking just boggles my mind.

Come on. Saying no one is ridiculous. You know that's not true. They missed out on Shaq when he went to LA. There's one for you. I'm not going to name every single free agent out there to prove we didn't sign them.

I have complete confidence that Danny will do his best to try and improve this team. He did it getting Ray and KG. He didn't do it however landing a big fish in free agency. Just some over the hill little ones. Yes they help our team, but as you have so effectively pointed out the only reason they are here is because they believe they can be a small piece in collecting a ring. If we weren't contenders, like we weren't in the 90's, they wouldn't be here.

My opinion is that when all that is left is a very old PP and Rondo, we are no longer a contender even with 1 superstar. We are the Dallas Mavericks. We'll win some games, but not really contend for a title. When that happens we will once again not attract a Tier 1 free agent and likely not even get a Tier 2 free agent. We will be stuck in the 90's again and Rondo will walk shortly after. If you are willing to take a chance that we can get a superstar and 2 tier 2 guys to come to the cold city of Boston, then be my guest. I doubt Danny will be so foolish though. Trading Rondo after 2 more years when KG and Ray are gone and start rebuilding seems to be the smarter way.

ok, we're getting somewhere now.  You're using Shaq as your example.  fine.  Exactly how much cap room did Boston have when he was a FA?  They didn't have the room.  LA did.  Hence, they get Shaq.  You can just say that Shaq was a top level FA that switched teams and because Boston didn't make cap room available to get into a bidding war with LA, that Boston can't draw top level FA's.  That makes no sense.  
To hold that viewpoint, you've either got to believe that the C's have an opportunity to move enough contracts to get cap space OR the team should always have lots of available cap space each year just in case a top level FA becomes available.  Neither scenario is realistic because you either have to purge the team of all your players (good and bad) to make room or sign players to 1-year deals each year.  In either case, you foster a crappy team that no one would want to be associated with at all--even any good players you happen to draft (why would they want to stay?)

I think you are way off base here.  You haven't got a sound basis for you argument.  Now in 2012, if the C's have lots of cap room AND there's some top level FA's that choose to go elsewhere, this debate would be more understandable.

oh, not to dodge your other comment but yes, I'm saying no one was available.  Shaq's not a valid example.  If you can provide a year when the C's had cap room (which there aren't) AND the top-level FA that signed elsewhere that year, that would really help make your point here but the key part of your point that's not getting any traction is that the C's haven't had cap room to pursue anyone.

All right. Last comment because this is going no where and this is so far from the point of my thread.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that if Shaq's agent told the Celtics that he wanted to play for us that we couldn't have cleared cap space via trades, etc to get him on that team? The Lakers had Kobe. We had Pierce. They made it work just like we would have if he hadn't wanted to come here. He didn't, so we weren't in the discussion.

Your point doesn't make sense because the fact is that through that entire stretch not ONE expressed interest in coming here so the cap space or moves necessary to make it happen was a moot point. Just like I'm afraid will happen when the only one on the squad is Rondo. Then he'll walk and everyone in Boston will be wondering what happened and calling for Danny's head for letting him go...

[rondohondo]

This is a ridiculous statement that some people around here keep bringing up. Since the CBA has been put in place the C's have never been in a position to land a top tier FA. When have they had cap room since the early 90's? the answer is never .

This is all that needs to be said.

exactly.  this answers the question in a nice, neat (and fairly politely considering the topic) package.

I, for one, would appreciate the OP definitively stating exactly which top tier FA the C's missed out on AND explain how the C's missed out on that FA.  Personally, I don't think a single example can be produced which makes this thread moot.  

Now if they have lots of cap room in 2012 and Rondo/PP as a combo to lure a top FA and don't land a top FA (if one is available), then there may be a point to this discussion.

Considering that we haven't signed ANY top tier free agent then the answer is ALL of them. My question to the group was WHY? My theory is that no one wants to live in Boston. I wanted to see what other opinions were out there. Considering that many people on here's idea for post Big 3 success is to sit and wait for all these top tier free agents to come running to play with Rondo, and history has shown that they don't ever come here, I think it is a fair question. If there is a valid reason then we're better off to try and trade Rondo and retool that way. If there is not then maybe we can have some optimism.

EJ, you haven't answered the question.  Who could they have signed and how did they miss out on signing them?  simple question.

Just because we DIDN'T sign one, doesn't mean we COULD have signed one.  You need to have the available cap space to sign a top level FA.  Period.  At what time did this team have that kind of cap space available?  to solve that dilemna for you, they haven't.  Period.  

You can [peeve] and moan about this team not signing one all you want and claim that it's bad management, poor attitudes towards the city or fans or franchise or whatever but that doesn't change the fact that the C's have not had the $ to be active in the chase for top FA's.  

I just don't understand why you're saying this team has missed out on ALL the FA's.  That's not even a remotely accurate statement.  Do you honestly think a player, such as Lebron for example, would even consider coming to Boston, or any team for that matter, for MLE money?  That's what you're proposing if you are seriously asking why Boston didn't sign him or any other FA in the past 20 years.

You guys are missing out on how this works! You don't look up and say "we have cap space. Let's see what Tier 1 free agents are out there and try and see if they'll come to Boston". Miami, NY, and Chicago PUT themselves in a situation where they COULD sign one and then went after them. Based on information from the players camps everyone knew where Lebron was interested in going. They then made moves to put themselves in a situation where they could sign them. My point is, that NEVER have we been in a situation where an upcoming Tier 1 free agent has floated out there that they want to come to Boston. Are you trying to tell me that since the early 90's that we have not had the ability to make some moves to clear cap space if one of them had? If Miami can keep Dwayne Wade and clear enough cap space to sign not only Lebron but also Bosh, surely they would have been able to make adjustments to keep Pierce and sign ONE. We didn't make these moves because no interest was ever expressed. No one wanted to sign with us. So in answer to your question. We missed out on ALL of them because not one of them had enough interest in Boston to even throw us out as a possibility.

wow , why even have a discussion if you can't process anything anyone else says and just constantly stick to this one untrue statement that no one wants to come to Boston.

The reason big name players didn't want/couldn't come here in the 90's is....

1)The C's were awful

2) Reggie Lewis passed and that messed up the cap situation for a few years because Stern wouldn't give the C's an exemption.

3) By the time PP was becoming an allstar , the C's had given Antoine a huge contract along with players like Travis Knight and Vin Baker. They had horrible management in place( Rick Pitino, Chris Wallace). They had to then sign PP to a max contract and were capped out .

This is the reason Danny Ainge was brought in . Danny traded away most of that capped out early 2000's team for young players and draft picks and expiring contracts .  He then went on to draft

Big Al
Perk
Rondo
West
Powe
BBD
Gomes

Even with all of these young players , the c's were still over the cap from the past management( Rick Pitino, Chris Wallace).

When the C's missed out on the top 2 picks in the 2007 NBA Draft ( Oden , Durant) he then shifted into win now mode. He traded all that young talent he acquired for 2 hall of famers and a 5 year championship window. During this Championship window many players have chosen the C's over other very good bball teams. guys like...

Rasheed
Shaq
Nate Robinson( wanted to be traded here )
JO

Sure they are no longer tier 1 players, but it shows that if a player believes he has a chance to win he will come to Boston.

The C's will have a boatload of money to offer Dwight Howard, along with another superstar player to attract him (Rondo) and a Players coach(hopefully) to entice him as well.

Orlando is going to run into similar problems that the C's have suffered from in the past because they will be capped out until at least 2013 with no real ability to acquire another superstar like Melo or Chris Paul to put next to him. Dwight could bail in 2012 if he can't make it back to the Finals in the next few seasons .

Danny has shown he knows what he is doing , have a little faith in him to get us another star to team up with Rondo

well put RH.

let's try a different approach EJ.  You're stating the C's didn't land any top FA's because none of the ones that were available said they wanted to leave their current teams to come to Boston and that Boston didn't clear cap space to get those FA's.  At least that's how your latest rebuttal is coming across.

Again, to my last question to you, who did they miss out on?  no one.  the movement of top players as FA's is rare.  This past offseason is a rarity as someone else pointed out long ago in this thread.  most top players move via trades, not FA. 

To go to your issue that the C's should clear cap space to be ready to sign big name FA's -- other than just for their own financial wellbeing as a franchise, WHY?  nobody really moves as a FA.  The recent moves you've seen I feel fairly confident are due to other players seeing the success of the C's and Lakers in accumulating a number of talented players and these other players want to emulate that success.  Hence Bron, Bosh, Amare, Boozer all left to try to get into that situation.  Granted Amare is waiting on CP3 and Melo in NY but that's the concept.

I think you're way off base on blaming the C's for not clearing cap space in the hopes of luring a rare top-level FA that actually leaves their team and even further off base by stating that no one wants to play in Boston because no one has said they want to in order to get the C's to clear cap space.  This line of thinking just boggles my mind.

Come on. Saying no one is ridiculous. You know that's not true. They missed out on Shaq when he went to LA. There's one for you. I'm not going to name every single free agent out there to prove we didn't sign them.

I have complete confidence that Danny will do his best to try and improve this team. He did it getting Ray and KG. He didn't do it however landing a big fish in free agency. Just some over the hill little ones. Yes they help our team, but as you have so effectively pointed out the only reason they are here is because they believe they can be a small piece in collecting a ring. If we weren't contenders, like we weren't in the 90's, they wouldn't be here.

My opinion is that when all that is left is a very old PP and Rondo, we are no longer a contender even with 1 superstar. We are the Dallas Mavericks. We'll win some games, but not really contend for a title. When that happens we will once again not attract a Tier 1 free agent and likely not even get a Tier 2 free agent. We will be stuck in the 90's again and Rondo will walk shortly after. If you are willing to take a chance that we can get a superstar and 2 tier 2 guys to come to the cold city of Boston, then be my guest. I doubt Danny will be so foolish though. Trading Rondo after 2 more years when KG and Ray are gone and start rebuilding seems to be the smarter way.

ok, we're getting somewhere now.  You're using Shaq as your example.  fine.  Exactly how much cap room did Boston have when he was a FA?  They didn't have the room.  LA did.  Hence, they get Shaq.  You can just say that Shaq was a top level FA that switched teams and because Boston didn't make cap room available to get into a bidding war with LA, that Boston can't draw top level FA's.  That makes no sense.  
To hold that viewpoint, you've either got to believe that the C's have an opportunity to move enough contracts to get cap space OR the team should always have lots of available cap space each year just in case a top level FA becomes available.  Neither scenario is realistic because you either have to purge the team of all your players (good and bad) to make room or sign players to 1-year deals each year.  In either case, you foster a crappy team that no one would want to be associated with at all--even any good players you happen to draft (why would they want to stay?)

I think you are way off base here.  You haven't got a sound basis for you argument.  Now in 2012, if the C's have lots of cap room AND there's some top level FA's that choose to go elsewhere, this debate would be more understandable.

oh, not to dodge your other comment but yes, I'm saying no one was available.  Shaq's not a valid example.  If you can provide a year when the C's had cap room (which there aren't) AND the top-level FA that signed elsewhere that year, that would really help make your point here but the key part of your point that's not getting any traction is that the C's haven't had cap room to pursue anyone.

All right. Last comment because this is going no where and this is so far from the point of my thread.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that if Shaq's agent told the Celtics that he wanted to play for us that we couldn't have cleared cap space via trades, etc to get him on that team? The Lakers had Kobe. We had Pierce. They made it work just like we would have if he hadn't wanted to come here. He didn't, so we weren't in the discussion.

Your point doesn't make sense because the fact is that through that entire stretch not ONE expressed interest in coming here so the cap space or moves necessary to make it happen was a moot point. Just like I'm afraid will happen when the only one on the squad is Rondo. Then he'll walk and everyone in Boston will be wondering what happened and calling for Danny's head for letting him go...

First of all the C's sucked in 96 and PP WASN'T EVEN ON THE TEAM YET.

Kobe was drafted the same year that shaq signed with LA( They actually traded Vlade Divac to the Hornets for the rights to Kobe)

LA may be a more desirable place to play, but the Lakers won't have Cap room in 2012 . The teams that will have cap space in 2012 will be

Bos      ( Rondo, PP , hopefully Doc still)
Lac      ( Griffin, Gordon)
oklahoma  ( Westbrook, Durant)
NY Knicks ( Amare , Diantoni)

Those will be the biggest markets/best teams with cap space ( if they don't add long term contracts before the summer of 2012)

Chris Paul would be a perfect fit for New York and is likely going to happen.

I think the C's are going to go after Dwight Howard with a full court press if he decides to use his early termination option and become a UFA. Doesn't mean they will be able to sign him, but why not put yourself in a position to at least try ? and that
 is exactly what Danny has set up for 2012.

Oklahoma could also be a very good fit for Dwight Howard

Deron Williams could also opt out in 2012 .

[dpaps]

I think you're both wrong.

To the OP: Just because we haven't signed a top tier free agent doesn't mean that we CAN'T sign one or that one will never want to come here.

But to the people arguing that the OP has no basis because we've never had the cap space, the fact that we have not signed a top free agent in all these years does say something. It doesn't say that we CAN'T, but it means that for whatever reasons, Boston is a less desirable destination than other cities. LA has Hollywood and sunny beaches and hot women. Florida has sunny weather, hot women, and no property tax (which saves Pro Athletes millions). Again it doesn't mean that we will never sign a top free agent but it does show that at minimum we're at least much less likely than other cities to do so.

[thirstyboots18]

I think you're both wrong.

To the OP: Just because we haven't signed a top tier free agent doesn't mean that we CAN'T sign one or that one will never want to come here.

But to the people arguing that the OP has no basis because we've never had the cap space, the fact that we have not signed a top free agent in all these years does say something. It doesn't say that we CAN'T, but it means that for whatever reasons, Boston is a less desirable destination than other cities. LA has Hollywood and sunny beaches and hot women. Florida has sunny weather, hot women, and no property tax (which saves Pro Athletes millions). Again it doesn't mean that we will never sign a top free agent but it does show that at minimum we're at least much less likely than other cities to do so.

In Florida we have property tax and sales tax.  What we do not have is...Income Tax! (And most,  but not all, of our hot women are getting their heat from hot flashes,  ).