Why can't Boston attract a Tier 1 Free Agent?!

[BballTim]

Dwight is really your most hated player? Im curious to why... I think he is an awesome dude. hes funny, hes exciting to watch, and he really brings out the passion for the game in his play and in his off court activities.

  I don't like Howard at all. He's a dirty player (Mr elbows) who always (bravely) tries to put a little extra hurt into picks on players Rondo's size. He preens on a regular basis, his superman routines are ridiculous, and his staring at his hand when he scores is nonsensical when you consider that his shots are lucky to hit the rim when he's guarded by a good defensive center.

  Edit: And is he ever going to outgrow blocking shots into the 6th row instead of directing the ball to a teammate and then posing after the block?

[crownsy]

I tried to get SOMEONE to answer this question in the Rondo thread but no one would/could. I think we all agree if we kept Perk, BBD, and added a couple of high end free agents with Rondo we could avoid rebuilding and remain competitors for Championships for years. Unfortunately in my 30+ years of being a die-hard fan I can not recall one Tier 1 NBA free agent that chose to come and play for the Celtics. Yes we have had a lot of great players over the years. We have 4 Hall of Fame players on our team right now. All of these however came from trades, or they came after they were no longer Tier 1 guys and were just looking to be the veteran presence for a few minutes to push us over the edge.

Can someone give me a legit reason why they won't come here, or some way we can change this history?! If we can't, we are going to have a long drought soon!

1. Its a crappy place to live in the winter when southern teams are good and offering just as much money to play somewhere nice

2. history of racial intolerance (I know, I know, but it's there in the players minds)

3. we were awful for the last 20 years (pre 2008)

4. There really isn't a huge majority of big name free agent movement (this summer aside) in the NBA compared to other leagues, which limits the chances.

[dpaps]

The statement that Boston CAN'T attract a tier 1 free agent, I think (and hope) is false. Like most people have said, the stars just haven't aligned in the past. There would need to be a summer where we had significant cap space, there would have to be a tier 1 free agent looking to move, and we would have to offer the best situation for him. It just hasn't happened for us, but that doesn't mean it can't. If we have max money in 2012, and a young core of Rondo and maybe Perk and BBD, maybe someone will want to come continue the tradition and play with maybe the best PG in the game.

Food for thought though...If you are not from Boston, and you can choose any city in the country to live in, Boston is most likely no where near the top. LA, SF, Miami, NY, Chicago, (to only name a handful), all probably rank ahead of Boston in just about every category. What we need is to have the players in place (Rondo) and a winning tradition and legacy which no one can match. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't happen.

[Snakehead]

I tried to get SOMEONE to answer this question in the Rondo thread but no one would/could. I think we all agree if we kept Perk, BBD, and added a couple of high end free agents with Rondo we could avoid rebuilding and remain competitors for Championships for years. Unfortunately in my 30+ years of being a die-hard fan I can not recall one Tier 1 NBA free agent that chose to come and play for the Celtics. Yes we have had a lot of great players over the years. We have 4 Hall of Fame players on our team right now. All of these however came from trades, or they came after they were no longer Tier 1 guys and were just looking to be the veteran presence for a few minutes to push us over the edge.

Can someone give me a legit reason why they won't come here, or some way we can change this history?! If we can't, we are going to have a long drought soon!

1. Its a crappy place to live in the winter when southern teams are good and offering just as much money to play somewhere nice

2. history of racial intolerance (I know, I know, but it's there in the players minds)

3. we were awful for the last 20 years (pre 2008)

4. There really isn't a huge majority of big name free agent movement (this summer aside) in the NBA compared to other leagues, which limits the chances.

A history of racial intolerance is not in any single players mind.  That's just silly.  I think people overestimate all the history, players don't look at that nor should they.  They operate in the now.

Like you say the being awful for 20 years kept people away from Boston.  Now people respect the team because they are great and some package that as "embracing the Celtics tradition" but really it's just the current tradition of winning (not that the history doesn't factor in at all into that, just a lot less than people think.)  Notice that mystique was missing for a while... KG, Pierce, Ray, and the winning brought it back, but it is their work and their creation.

[dpaps]

I tried to get SOMEONE to answer this question in the Rondo thread but no one would/could. I think we all agree if we kept Perk, BBD, and added a couple of high end free agents with Rondo we could avoid rebuilding and remain competitors for Championships for years. Unfortunately in my 30+ years of being a die-hard fan I can not recall one Tier 1 NBA free agent that chose to come and play for the Celtics. Yes we have had a lot of great players over the years. We have 4 Hall of Fame players on our team right now. All of these however came from trades, or they came after they were no longer Tier 1 guys and were just looking to be the veteran presence for a few minutes to push us over the edge.

Can someone give me a legit reason why they won't come here, or some way we can change this history?! If we can't, we are going to have a long drought soon!

1. Its a crappy place to live in the winter when southern teams are good and offering just as much money to play somewhere nice

2. history of racial intolerance (I know, I know, but it's there in the players minds)

3. we were awful for the last 20 years (pre 2008)

4. There really isn't a huge majority of big name free agent movement (this summer aside) in the NBA compared to other leagues, which limits the chances.

A history of racial intolerance is not in any single players mind.  That's just silly.  I think people overestimate all the history, players don't look at that nor should they.  They operate in the now.

Like you say the being awful for 20 years kept people away from Boston.  Now people respect the team because they are great and some package that as "embracing the Celtics tradition" but really it's just the current tradition of winning (not that the history doesn't factor in at all into that, just a lot less than people think.)  Notice that mystique was missing for a while... KG, Pierce, Ray and the winning brought it back.

While it probably isn't a major factor in anyone's decision, I don't think we can conclude that it's not "in any single player's mind." Absolute statements like that are almost never true. Boston does still have that reputation around the country.

[Snakehead]

I tried to get SOMEONE to answer this question in the Rondo thread but no one would/could. I think we all agree if we kept Perk, BBD, and added a couple of high end free agents with Rondo we could avoid rebuilding and remain competitors for Championships for years. Unfortunately in my 30+ years of being a die-hard fan I can not recall one Tier 1 NBA free agent that chose to come and play for the Celtics. Yes we have had a lot of great players over the years. We have 4 Hall of Fame players on our team right now. All of these however came from trades, or they came after they were no longer Tier 1 guys and were just looking to be the veteran presence for a few minutes to push us over the edge.

Can someone give me a legit reason why they won't come here, or some way we can change this history?! If we can't, we are going to have a long drought soon!

1. Its a crappy place to live in the winter when southern teams are good and offering just as much money to play somewhere nice

2. history of racial intolerance (I know, I know, but it's there in the players minds)

3. we were awful for the last 20 years (pre 2008)

4. There really isn't a huge majority of big name free agent movement (this summer aside) in the NBA compared to other leagues, which limits the chances.

A history of racial intolerance is not in any single players mind.  That's just silly.  I think people overestimate all the history, players don't look at that nor should they.  They operate in the now.

Like you say the being awful for 20 years kept people away from Boston.  Now people respect the team because they are great and some package that as "embracing the Celtics tradition" but really it's just the current tradition of winning (not that the history doesn't factor in at all into that, just a lot less than people think.)  Notice that mystique was missing for a while... KG, Pierce, Ray and the winning brought it back.

While it probably isn't a major factor in anyone's decision, I don't think we can conclude that it's not "in any single player's mind." Absolute statements like that are almost never true. Boston does still have that reputation around the country.

I've lived other places and I can say I have never heard that reputation from a person.  I've heard it said by writers or New Englanders, implying others say it, but never from a person not from New England.  So I don't know how widespread it really is.  I think it is historically known as true, but I really don't think many bother thinking about it anymore.  And I can also say I found Ohio and Nevada to be FAR more racially intolerant as far as Whites to minorities.

And yes, maybe some players think of it, I guess I can't be so absolute, but I virtually guarentee like you say it isn't a major factor.  I'll point to all the black players who seem to be very happy to play here and all the fans love.  And not with any of the racist strings attached like Russell had.

[crownsy]

I tried to get SOMEONE to answer this question in the Rondo thread but no one would/could. I think we all agree if we kept Perk, BBD, and added a couple of high end free agents with Rondo we could avoid rebuilding and remain competitors for Championships for years. Unfortunately in my 30+ years of being a die-hard fan I can not recall one Tier 1 NBA free agent that chose to come and play for the Celtics. Yes we have had a lot of great players over the years. We have 4 Hall of Fame players on our team right now. All of these however came from trades, or they came after they were no longer Tier 1 guys and were just looking to be the veteran presence for a few minutes to push us over the edge.

Can someone give me a legit reason why they won't come here, or some way we can change this history?! If we can't, we are going to have a long drought soon!

1. Its a crappy place to live in the winter when southern teams are good and offering just as much money to play somewhere nice

2. history of racial intolerance (I know, I know, but it's there in the players minds)

3. we were awful for the last 20 years (pre 2008)

4. There really isn't a huge majority of big name free agent movement (this summer aside) in the NBA compared to other leagues, which limits the chances.

A history of racial intolerance is not in any single players mind.  That's just silly.  I think people overestimate all the history, players don't look at that nor should they.  They operate in the now.

Like you say the being awful for 20 years kept people away from Boston.  Now people respect the team because they are great and some package that as "embracing the Celtics tradition" but really it's just the current tradition of winning (not that the history doesn't factor in at all into that, just a lot less than people think.)  Notice that mystique was missing for a while... KG, Pierce, Ray and the winning brought it back.

Really.

So you think the widely reported reluctance of KG to approve the trade pre-ray allen, for this very reason was a lie on wilbon, SAS and other's part?

you think torri hunter is a liar as well i assume

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2008/04/23/torii-hunter-has-heard-racial-taunts-at-fenway-park/

you also think that...pardon i can't remember who it was at the moment...might even have been hunter again but i think it was someone else (mid 2000's) african american baseball player who said famously that "no one wants to go down south to boston to play" was simply making a non-truthful statement about his personal concern and no one elses?

We can debate over whether it is a legitimate concern for a african American pro athlete to have, but given this city's racial history and the concerns that are expressed historically by african american athletes, including KG (again, unless you think micheal wilbon, and SAS are liar's, which i would not begrudge you) make it a valid point.

Heck as Maz said a few weeks ago, one of the most refreshing parts of the carl crawford signing was it was one of the first major FA signings of an African american where there was an ABSENCE of these types of rumors around, which hopefully is a sign that Boston is losing that stigma, deserved or not, with african american athletes.
 

[crownsy]

I tried to get SOMEONE to answer this question in the Rondo thread but no one would/could. I think we all agree if we kept Perk, BBD, and added a couple of high end free agents with Rondo we could avoid rebuilding and remain competitors for Championships for years. Unfortunately in my 30+ years of being a die-hard fan I can not recall one Tier 1 NBA free agent that chose to come and play for the Celtics. Yes we have had a lot of great players over the years. We have 4 Hall of Fame players on our team right now. All of these however came from trades, or they came after they were no longer Tier 1 guys and were just looking to be the veteran presence for a few minutes to push us over the edge.

Can someone give me a legit reason why they won't come here, or some way we can change this history?! If we can't, we are going to have a long drought soon!

1. Its a crappy place to live in the winter when southern teams are good and offering just as much money to play somewhere nice

2. history of racial intolerance (I know, I know, but it's there in the players minds)

3. we were awful for the last 20 years (pre 2008)

4. There really isn't a huge majority of big name free agent movement (this summer aside) in the NBA compared to other leagues, which limits the chances.

A history of racial intolerance is not in any single players mind.  That's just silly.  I think people overestimate all the history, players don't look at that nor should they.  They operate in the now.

Like you say the being awful for 20 years kept people away from Boston.  Now people respect the team because they are great and some package that as "embracing the Celtics tradition" but really it's just the current tradition of winning (not that the history doesn't factor in at all into that, just a lot less than people think.)  Notice that mystique was missing for a while... KG, Pierce, Ray and the winning brought it back.

While it probably isn't a major factor in anyone's decision, I don't think we can conclude that it's not "in any single player's mind." Absolute statements like that are almost never true. Boston does still have that reputation around the country.

I've lived other places and I can say I have never heard that reputation from a person.  I've heard it said by writers or New Englanders, implying others say it, but never from a person not from New England.  So I don't know how widespread it really is.  I think it is historically known as true, but I really don't think many bother thinking about it anymore.  And I can also say I found Ohio and Nevada to be FAR more racially intolerant as far as Whites to minorities.

And yes, maybe some players think of it, I guess I can't be so absolute, but I virtually guarentee like you say it isn't a major factor.  I'll point to all the black players who seem to be very happy to play here and all the fans love.  And not with any of the racist strings attached like Russell had.

I think that's entirely your opinion, with no real facts to back it other than the hope that it's true (which i hope as well)

meanwhile there are plenty of anecdotes and history that prove it is on at least SOME players minds, including, reportedly, the big tickets at one time.

To dismiss those reports as simple media creations because you don't want them to be true is not the same thing as it not happening.

[Snakehead]

I tried to get SOMEONE to answer this question in the Rondo thread but no one would/could. I think we all agree if we kept Perk, BBD, and added a couple of high end free agents with Rondo we could avoid rebuilding and remain competitors for Championships for years. Unfortunately in my 30+ years of being a die-hard fan I can not recall one Tier 1 NBA free agent that chose to come and play for the Celtics. Yes we have had a lot of great players over the years. We have 4 Hall of Fame players on our team right now. All of these however came from trades, or they came after they were no longer Tier 1 guys and were just looking to be the veteran presence for a few minutes to push us over the edge.

Can someone give me a legit reason why they won't come here, or some way we can change this history?! If we can't, we are going to have a long drought soon!

1. Its a crappy place to live in the winter when southern teams are good and offering just as much money to play somewhere nice

2. history of racial intolerance (I know, I know, but it's there in the players minds)

3. we were awful for the last 20 years (pre 2008)

4. There really isn't a huge majority of big name free agent movement (this summer aside) in the NBA compared to other leagues, which limits the chances.

A history of racial intolerance is not in any single players mind.  That's just silly.  I think people overestimate all the history, players don't look at that nor should they.  They operate in the now.

Like you say the being awful for 20 years kept people away from Boston.  Now people respect the team because they are great and some package that as "embracing the Celtics tradition" but really it's just the current tradition of winning (not that the history doesn't factor in at all into that, just a lot less than people think.)  Notice that mystique was missing for a while... KG, Pierce, Ray and the winning brought it back.

Really.

So you think the widely reported reluctance of KG to approve the trade pre-ray allen, for this very reason was a lie on wilbon, SAS and other's part?

you think torri hunter is a liar as well i assume

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2008/04/23/torii-hunter-has-heard-racial-taunts-at-fenway-park/

you also think that...pardon i can't remember who it was at the moment...might even have been hunter again but i think it was someone else (mid 2000's) african american baseball player who said famously that "no one wants to go down south to boston to play" was simply making a non-truthful statement about his personal concern and no one elses?

We can debate over whether it is a legitimate concern for a african American pro athlete to have, but given this city's racial history and the concerns that are expressed historically by african american athletes, including KG (again, unless you think micheal wilbon, and SAS are liar's, which i would not begrudge you) make it a valid point.

Heck as Maz said a few weeks ago, one of the most refreshing parts of the carl crawford signing was it was one of the first major FA signings of an African american where there was an ABSENCE of these types of rumors around, which hopefully is a sign that Boston is losing that stigma, deserved or not, with african american athletes.
 

Man I guarentee they hear racial slurs at all sorts of ball parks by the same drunken ****s that exist everywhere. I'll tell you where I heard the most negative racial black slurs used by white people: Ohio or New Jersey.  Not condemning either place but just saying New England has not been as bad from all my experience. I don't think Boston is any diferent.  I think Torri Hunter heard slurs but I also think he hates Boston and he always has something to say to the press. I think he's heard it other places too.

As far as the other ones go, KG, Wilbon, etc, Okay, maybe they had those conceptions that's fair but I think if they did they are operating in a past that is simply not the case.  New England is one of the most racially tolerant places in the country from all my experiences. 

And KG and Wilbon are older guys.  I think young players (who we would be luring in the future as per the discussion) simply don't have these notions to the point where they are a factor.  They might know about the history but I don't think it would factor into their decision.

And as you say, Carl Crawford is a good example of that trend.  I really don't think he cared.

I think that's entirely your opinion, with no real facts to back it other than the hope that it's true (which i hope as well)

meanwhile there are plenty of anecdotes and history that prove it is on at least SOME players minds, including, reportedly, the big tickets at one time.

To dismiss those reports as simple media creations because you don't want them to be true is not the same thing as it not happening.

I never said you were making things up or anyone else was.  Again, like you say, HISTORY.  KG is an old player first off, and second one who's career was almost ended as a high schooler due to intense racism.  He grew up in the south and knows it well so obviously would be more aware.  He in many ways is a special case.

I don't think todays and future players (pertaining to the topic) would feel that way and be concerned.

[rondohondo]

I tried to get SOMEONE to answer this question in the Rondo thread but no one would/could. I think we all agree if we kept Perk, BBD, and added a couple of high end free agents with Rondo we could avoid rebuilding and remain competitors for Championships for years. Unfortunately in my 30+ years of being a die-hard fan I can not recall one Tier 1 NBA free agent that chose to come and play for the Celtics. Yes we have had a lot of great players over the years. We have 4 Hall of Fame players on our team right now. All of these however came from trades, or they came after they were no longer Tier 1 guys and were just looking to be the veteran presence for a few minutes to push us over the edge.

Can someone give me a legit reason why they won't come here, or some way we can change this history?! If we can't, we are going to have a long drought soon!

1. Its a crappy place to live in the winter when southern teams are good and offering just as much money to play somewhere nice

2. history of racial intolerance (I know, I know, but it's there in the players minds)

3. we were awful for the last 20 years (pre 2008)

4. There really isn't a huge majority of big name free agent movement (this summer aside) in the NBA compared to other leagues, which limits the chances.

A history of racial intolerance is not in any single players mind.  That's just silly.  I think people overestimate all the history, players don't look at that nor should they.  They operate in the now.

Like you say the being awful for 20 years kept people away from Boston.  Now people respect the team because they are great and some package that as "embracing the Celtics tradition" but really it's just the current tradition of winning (not that the history doesn't factor in at all into that, just a lot less than people think.)  Notice that mystique was missing for a while... KG, Pierce, Ray and the winning brought it back.

Really.

So you think the widely reported reluctance of KG to approve the trade pre-ray allen, for this very reason was a lie on wilbon, SAS and other's part?

you think torri hunter is a liar as well i assume

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2008/04/23/torii-hunter-has-heard-racial-taunts-at-fenway-park/

you also think that...pardon i can't remember who it was at the moment...might even have been hunter again but i think it was someone else (mid 2000's) african american baseball player who said famously that "no one wants to go down south to boston to play" was simply making a non-truthful statement about his personal concern and no one elses?

We can debate over whether it is a legitimate concern for a african American pro athlete to have, but given this city's racial history and the concerns that are expressed historically by african american athletes, including KG (again, unless you think micheal wilbon, and SAS are liar's, which i would not begrudge you) make it a valid point.

Heck as Maz said a few weeks ago, one of the most refreshing parts of the carl crawford signing was it was one of the first major FA signings of an African american where there was an ABSENCE of these types of rumors around, which hopefully is a sign that Boston is losing that stigma, deserved or not, with african american athletes.
 

Didn't the red sox just sign Carl Crawford and Adrian Gonzales ?

Shaq, JO, Rasheed have all signed with the c's

Nate Robinson wanted to be traded here

If you give the player a max deal and/or a chance to win championships I don't think it matters much .

[LakersFan_33]

In Los Angeles, most of the time, I will step outside and it'll be 70/80 degree's. It's the middle of winter here, and it's 60 degree's, and won't get much colder. It will never snow here and it hardly ever rains.

I think that players like L.A. also for the culture and night life, and I also genuinely believe that many of them want to advance their careers, and pursue something related to entertainment in the future after their pro careers.

[rondohondo]

In Los Angeles, most of the time, I will step outside and it'll be 70/80 degree's. It's the middle of winter here, and it's 60 degree's, and won't get much colder. It will never snow here and it hardly ever rains.

I think that players like L.A. also for the culture and night life, and I also genuinely believe that many of them want to advance their careers, and pursue some sort of stardom in the future.

true good thing the Lakers won't have cap space in 2012 so we wouldn't have to compete against them in free agency.

[LakersFan_33]

In Los Angeles, most of the time, I will step outside and it'll be 70/80 degree's. It's the middle of winter here, and it's 60 degree's, and won't get much colder. It will never snow here and it hardly ever rains.

I think that players like L.A. also for the culture and night life, and I also genuinely believe that many of them want to advance their careers, and pursue some sort of stardom in the future.

true good thing the Lakers won't have cap space in 2012 so we wouldn't have to compete against them in free agency.

You never know what can happen as far as trades, etc. Dr. Buss has consistently shown that he can and will get the big names to come to the Lakers.

Honestly, as long as our core is intact and healthy, I see no reason to make any major changes.

[Moranis]

I think the players know more about the Celtics than you think.  I clearly recall disdain and shock on PP's face once he was drafted here.  Granted that was years ago but a lot of the kids today grew up Laker or Bulls fans and we are not in the mix as a team someone wants to come to play.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the pressure of measuring up to the Celtics Pantheon.   Its huge really, playing in the shadow of Russell, Cousy, Bird, McHale, Cowens and Havlicek.  

I think having Doc helps us a lot to sign peeps.   We have not exactly had players coaches in the past.

Pierce was angry he got drafted 10th, he thought he was going to be picked in the top 3 or 4.

Pierce grew up in Inglewood, which is central Los Angeles. It's where the Forum is, he literally grew up down the street from the Lakers home, during the middle of the Celtics-Lakers rivalry. He HATED the Celtics as much as most of us hate the Lakers. Saying PP was disappointed to be drafted by Boston doesn't necessarily reflect the way any other player would feel.

I don't think it was Boston so much as it was Boston at #10.

[BballTim]

I think the players know more about the Celtics than you think.  I clearly recall disdain and shock on PP's face once he was drafted here.  Granted that was years ago but a lot of the kids today grew up Laker or Bulls fans and we are not in the mix as a team someone wants to come to play.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the pressure of measuring up to the Celtics Pantheon.   Its huge really, playing in the shadow of Russell, Cousy, Bird, McHale, Cowens and Havlicek.  

I think having Doc helps us a lot to sign peeps.   We have not exactly had players coaches in the past.

Pierce was angry he got drafted 10th, he thought he was going to be picked in the top 3 or 4.

Pierce grew up in Inglewood, which is central Los Angeles. It's where the Forum is, he literally grew up down the street from the Lakers home, during the middle of the Celtics-Lakers rivalry. He HATED the Celtics as much as most of us hate the Lakers. Saying PP was disappointed to be drafted by Boston doesn't necessarily reflect the way any other player would feel.

I don't think it was Boston so much as it was Boston at #10.

  I actually heard that once PP started dropping he told a few teams (maybe Philly and Milwaukee, not sure) that he didn't want to play for them and wanted to play for the Celts. BTW, if you want to talk about players and race issues, don't forget about Dee Brown, who was nearly arrested for armed robbery before he ever suited up for the Celts because he "matched the description" of a suspect.