Why can't Boston attract a Tier 1 Free Agent?!

[rondohondo]

Also, for whatever it's worth, we've done okay with attracting Tier 2 free agents.  Rasheed was probably the most coveted mid-level free agent last year, and he had his pick of contenders to go to (San Antonio, Orlando, etc.)  He chose Boston.  Jermaine O'Neal did the same thing this past off-season.

At the very least, that shows that we can compete with other cities when it comes to attracting free agents.  When the money is even, guys have chosen to come here.

I don't disagree with this at all. I think we are destined to be a Tier 2 free agent market. I see us getting the same situation Chicago did in the offseason and instead of getting a Lebron and Bosh, getting  Boozer and Kyle Korver.

If we don't get at least 1 superstar level player to play with Rondo and a Tier 2 player or two to go along with them, we aren't going to win anything. Historically speaking I just don't see that happening. I think the best thing that we could do to increase our chances of competing for a title would be to trade Rondo and filler for a low draft pick and a couple Tier 2 guys and hope you draft the superstar. Otherwise I think we return to the 90's again. Pretending that someone of Tier 1 status will come here when history shows otherwise is kind of futile.

so your plan to be a contender after the big 3 are gone is to trade Rondo for a low draft pick and a couple of tier 2 players ? Rondo himself is a tier 2 player and is going to have a greater impact than any other tier 2 player you bring in .

And then hope to get lucky in the draft?

This sounds like a great plan if you want to relive the 90's all over again.

The C's will most likely have around 35 mil on their pay role in 2012 with

PP
Rondo
Bradley
Perk or BBD

That means they will still have a ton of cap space to bring in another free agent to help build around.

Guys like Chris Paul, Eric Gordon, Kevin Love, Dwight Howard, Javel McGee,Gerald Wallace,O.J. Mayo,Michael Beasley,Brook Lopez,   will/could be free agents . I would much rather take a shot at trying to sign one of these guys in 2012 than to just trade Rondo away. You can always trade him after we see how the 2012 free agency plays out. Whats the rush with trading Rondo away ?

Yes, let's sign Chris Paul in free agency to pair with Rondo and Perk. That's a 4-5 year guaranteed championship run.

The premise of the discussion is that the top tier guys, which only Chris Paul IMO is one of them aren't going to come here. That leaves this ragtag group of guys will be what you are left with. Nice players, but not a championship team. Let's say you get 2 of them even. Is Rondo, and Love and OJ Mayo going to win championships?! Not a chance!

You won't win a championship when your only superstar is a PG. Especially when he is a mediocre shooter at best. Most championship teams have their superstars at the 3 and the 4. We need to trade our only valuable asset at that time, Rondo, for a superstar 3-4 if possible, or a couple of tier 2 guys and a lottery pick. Otherwise our future is Rondo leaving in 4 years for nothing (sign and trade if we were real lucky) and we are now the Cleveland Cavs. Just ask them or Toronto...

If you want to guarantee mediocrity through the following 10 years, just go ahead and hang on to your only star that can't even get us in the playoffs by himself.


I love Rondo's game and would love to see him retire a Celtic. If I knew we could get a star and a couple tier 2 guys to put with him I'd prefer that over any other option. I would rather use him to rebuild and come back quickly though,  than see him walk after a couple horrible years leaving us to be a perennial lottery team.

no it wouldn't be Rondo, Paul and Perk. Obviously if we sign Paul we won't need Rondo, so he can be used as a s+ t to get pauland still have the cap room to sign another max guy or We sign Paul and then trade Rondo for another player with a close to max contract.

The point is that Rondo could very well land you a franchise player , especially if the team is going to lose them for nothing. Why in the world would you trade Rondo for anything other than a superstar, it just doesnt make sense.

If like you say the c's will stink with just rondo then why not let them stink for a few years and get high lottery pick instead of trading rondo away for a tier 2 player( who won't be as good as rondo anyway) and a pick. it's called a lottery for a reason .

[Interceptor]

While we're in the business of choosing things at random and assigning to them all of the credit for what's actually a complicated decision-making process on the part of fickle human beings, I'd like to join in the madness of this thread and submit the following:  state income taxes.


We all know that superstar NBA players make a ton of money, and that making even MORE money is the sole motivator for staying in the league.  Uncle Sam gets his take wherever they so happen to play, but the state tax situation is something else entirely.  Texas and Florida, for example, have no income tax whatsoever.  Neither does Tennessee, for all intents and purposes.  Is it a coincidence that three states with no income tax -- a mere 6% of the Union -- also happen to have 20% of the entire league's teams?  Of course not.

Massachusetts has always had an income tax, that has been scaring away money-conscious, frugal NBA players for decades.  It was a somewhat higher rate in the early 90's.  This is obviously not a coincidence, and was directly responsible for all of the Celtic's roster woes until 2007-2008.

Fortunately for us, Massachusetts has a flat tax rate, and not a graduated one, meaning that the tax rates don't continue to get higher as you make greater piles of money.  Also, it's currently at a modest 5.3%.  This doesn't let us compete for a player like Dwight Howard, unfortunately, since the only extra that he pays in Florida is on sales tax for the shovels he uses to move around his huge piles of money.  However, this makes us competitive with a state like California, which taxes away the firstborn of rich people (income tax in CA has destroyed the Clippers, who could not even sign a janitor for a max contract.  Lakers are held together only by the force of Kobe's leadership skills).


So keep a stiff upper lip, ladies and gentlemen; the ability to attract 1st tier talent to Boston is within our power.  Call your local state representatives.  I wager that if we can either get the tax rate lowered, or build in a special Athlete Exemption, we can be hanging banners up in the garden for the next hundred years.


edit:  I got ninja'ed!  How embarrassing.

[BballTim]

You won't win a championship when your only superstar is a PG. Especially when he is a mediocre shooter at best. Most championship teams have their superstars at the 3 and the 4. We need to trade our only valuable asset at that time, Rondo, for a superstar 3-4 if possible, or a couple of tier 2 guys and a lottery pick. Otherwise our future is Rondo leaving in 4 years for nothing (sign and trade if we were real lucky) and we are now the Cleveland Cavs. Just ask them or Toronto...

  If you look at the championship teams over the last 30 years there's no type of pattern for which position is best for superstars to play. Bird, Magic, Moses, Isaiah, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Bryant, KG. All the positions are represented many times. When the Celts played the Lakers in the finals the fact that Bird was a sf and Magic a pg didn't make the Celts more likely to win. If teams with superstar 3-4s have been winning lately it's random coincidence that the current franchise players play those positions.

If you want to guarantee mediocrity through the following 10 years, just go ahead and hang on to your only star that can't even get us in the playoffs by himself.

  Bryant's failed to get the Lakers to the playoffs in the past, as have PP/KG/RA/CP3 and most other stars. How many players get you to the playoffs by themselves? And do you just keep discarding good players until you miraculously land one?

I love Rondo's game and would love to see him retire a Celtic. If I knew we could get a star and a couple tier 2 guys to put with him I'd prefer that over any other option. I would rather use him to rebuild and come back quickly though,  than see him walk after a couple horrible years leaving us to be a perennial lottery team.

  The only way to use Rondo to come back quickly is to trade him for Durant or LeBron or maybe Griffin if he matures well. If he's good enough to net a player like that then there's no need to trade him.

[Chief]

If it isn't NY, players don't want to live in cold weather cities. LA, Miami, Orlando, Houston, and Phoenix have always been able to get the top tier. Rarely do they go to cities like Boston and Chicago. We have to build it the old fashion way. Great drafts (Bird, Pierce, Rondo) and great trades (McHale, Parish, Garnett, Allen). When the Celtics have built great teams, aging veterans have always wanted to come along for the ride (Walton, PJ, Rasheed, Shaq).

TP. This was exactly my opinion as to why they don't want to come. I was interested in others opinions. I don't buy the racist idea.

Do you remember when Duncan, Hill, and McGrady were free agents? The Bulls went after all three and got basically nothing. They ended up signing Eddie Robinson to a 5-year,$32 million contract. Hill and McGrady went to warm Orlando and Duncan stayed in warm San Antonio. Oddly enough, they tried the same thing again this year. Warm Miami ended up getting Lebron and Bosh. Luckily for the Bulls, Carlos Boozer is from Alaska.

[rondohondo]

list of players I would trade Rondo for

Lebron ( as much as i hate him)
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Kevin Durant
maybe Dwayne Wade

thats about it ,

If I am not getting one of those players back , I am not trading Rondo

[bdm860]

A little history about the NBA free agent process.  The first unrestricted free agent in NBA history wasn’t until 1988, and that was Tom Chambers, so at the most there has only be 22 possible years to sign free agents, not 30+.

From ’88-’93 the C’s were an established team with Bird, McHale, Parish, Lewis, etc.  No real room to sign free agents.

From ’93-’95 were there any Tier 1 free agents available?  The Celtics didn’t do too bad though signing Xavier McDaniel, Blue Edwards, Pervis Ellison, Domnique Wilkins, Dana Barros (coming off an All-Star season), etc.

Big Free agent class in ’96 with Shaq, Dikembe Mutombo, Allan Houston, Mark Price, Dan Majerle, Reggie Miller, Chris Childs, Juwan Howard, etc.  The salary cap is only $24.4M, but the C’s have $25.8M in salaries.  No cap room to sign any free agents.

From ’97-’99, The C’s are rebuilding and don’t have cap room.  Best free agents that switched teams seem to be more experienced guys (Pippen) who wouldn’t want to come to a rebuilding team, and young guys like Antonio McDyess, where we already are committed to Walker at his position, plus we were already over the cap (in ’99-‘00 we had about $46M in salaries and the cap was $34M).

A big class in ’00 with Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, and Duncan all up for grabs.  Duncan stays put, it doesn’t matter because we don’t have any cap room anyways (in ’00-’01 we had $51M in salaries with a $35.5M cap.)   Chris Webber is a free agent in ’01, but resigns with the Kings, don’t have the cap room and already have an All-Star power forward.

From ’02-’05 we’re a capped out playoff team.  No room to sign free agents.  Besides, what significant free agent switched teams besides Carlos Boozer, who plays the same position as Walker to whom we’re still committed?  Steve Nash would have been a nice signing, but again we have no cap room.  Kobe Bryant was a free agent, but did anybody really think he was leaving LA?

’06-’07, we’re a capped out sinking ship, who could we even sign?

’08-’10, we’re a capped out championship team, that a lot of guys want to play for (Sheed, O’Neal Brothers sign, PJ Brown comes out of retirement, Cassell and Marbury get bought out and come here, Corey Maggette even talked about taking the mid level to sign here).  If we had cap room, we probably could have signed one of the major free agents over the past few years: Baron Davis, Elton Brand, Boozer, Amare, Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay, Maggette, Ben Gordon, Charlie Villanueva, Josh Childress, etc.).

So  basically, I think it comes down to, there have only been a few major free agent classes in NBA History (’96, ’00, ’10 in my opinion, let me know if I’m missing something),  and all those years we didn’t have cap room, which can be chalked up to bad management (except for our recent run).  Has there been a year where we had cap room where we came up empty like New Jersey did this year.  If anything it seems like the Knicks have continually failed.  Didn’t they try to land Webber in ’01, Rasheed in ’04, and everybody in ’10?  They’re the big market team, with the night life and the glamour that Boston doesn’t have, but it doesn’t seem like the free agents are signing there either.


(using wikipedia for salary caps and basketball reference for team salaries for that season which doesn't show how much off season cap space they have, so my numbers may be not be completely accurate)

[Snakehead]

Great post above, TP. 

I don't agree with the thread because we just never have really attempted to go after a tier 1 free agent.  I think we will aquire pieces through trade to rebuild anyways.  The expiring contract situation will be good.

[Chief]

A little history about the NBA free agent process.  The first unrestricted free agent in NBA history wasn’t until 1988, and that was Tom Chambers, so at the most there has only be 22 possible years to sign free agents, not 30+.

From ’88-’93 the C’s were an established team with Bird, McHale, Parish, Lewis, etc.  No real room to sign free agents.

From ’93-’95 were there any Tier 1 free agents available?  The Celtics didn’t do too bad though signing Xavier McDaniel, Blue Edwards, Pervis Ellison, Domnique Wilkins, Dana Barros (coming off an All-Star season), etc.

Big Free agent class in ’96 with Shaq, Dikembe Mutombo, Allan Houston, Mark Price, Dan Majerle, Reggie Miller, Chris Childs, Juwan Howard, etc.  The salary cap is only $24.4M, but the C’s have $25.8M in salaries.  No cap room to sign any free agents.

From ’97-’99, The C’s are rebuilding and don’t have cap room.  Best free agents that switched teams seem to be more experienced guys (Pippen) who wouldn’t want to come to a rebuilding team, and young guys like Antonio McDyess, where we already are committed to Walker at his position, plus we were already over the cap (in ’99-‘00 we had about $46M in salaries and the cap was $34M).

A big class in ’00 with Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, and Duncan all up for grabs.  Duncan stays put, it doesn’t matter because we don’t have any cap room anyways (in ’00-’01 we had $51M in salaries with a $35.5M cap.)   Chris Webber is a free agent in ’01, but resigns with the Kings, don’t have the cap room and already have an All-Star power forward.

From ’02-’05 we’re a capped out playoff team.  No room to sign free agents.  Besides, what significant free agent switched teams besides Carlos Boozer, who plays the same position as Walker to whom we’re still committed?  Steve Nash would have been a nice signing, but again we have no cap room.  Kobe Bryant was a free agent, but did anybody really think he was leaving LA?

’06-’07, we’re a capped out sinking ship, who could we even sign?

’08-’10, we’re a capped out championship team, that a lot of guys want to play for (Sheed, O’Neal Brothers sign, PJ Brown comes out of retirement, Cassell and Marbury get bought out and come here, Corey Maggette even talked about taking the mid level to sign here).  If we had cap room, we probably could have signed one of the major free agents over the past few years: Baron Davis, Elton Brand, Boozer, Amare, Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay, Maggette, Ben Gordon, Charlie Villanueva, Josh Childress, etc.).

So  basically, I think it comes down to, there have only been a few major free agent classes in NBA History (’96, ’00, ’10 in my opinion, let me know if I’m missing something),  and all those years we didn’t have cap room, which can be chalked up to bad management (except for our recent run).  Has there been a year where we had cap room where we came up empty like New Jersey did this year.  If anything it seems like the Knicks have continually failed.  Didn’t they try to land Webber in ’01, Rasheed in ’04, and everybody in ’10?  They’re the big market team, with the night life and the glamour that Boston doesn’t have, but it doesn’t seem like the free agents are signing there either.


(using wikipedia for salary caps and basketball reference for team salaries for that season which doesn't show how much off season cap space they have, so my numbers may be not be completely accurate)

I remember Pitino renouncing the rights to Rick Fox to overpay for Travis Knight. Something like $20 million.

[jdub1660]

If it isn't NY, players don't want to live in cold weather cities. LA, Miami, Orlando, Houston, and Phoenix have always been able to get the top tier. Rarely do they go to cities like Boston and Chicago. We have to build it the old fashion way. Great drafts (Bird, Pierce, Rondo) and great trades (McHale, Parish, Garnett, Allen). When the Celtics have built great teams, aging veterans have always wanted to come along for the ride (Walton, PJ, Rasheed, Shaq).

TP. I wasn't aiming as NY as a go to place. Just an idea that its Hollywood targets and hot spots like Phoenix,Maimi, etc. Notice Melo demands a trade, and wants to go to NY. LBJ was bound to leave. His targets were NY and Miami.

Smart aged veterans come here to win a ring when we have made a team by trades and drafts.
Otherwise the free agents run to the bigger cities with beaches

[Army_of_One_Nation]

Was Xavier McDaniel considered a Tier 1 FA back then?

[Celtics4ever]

Cold...

Not glamour and entertainment mecca.

Long time hatred of the C's.  I posted this in another thread:
 
I think people hate us because we are the Celtics.  We won in 60's, 70's and 80's that created hate and that hate was passed down to kids who heard their dads cussing us.   Also, in the 80s we were despised at times for being a team of white guys, I know its not true but living outside NE I heard this about us.  Like it or not it was the case and general perception it wasn't true though I mean look at Chief and DJ.

[Snakehead]

There is a great post above that says this, but everyone who says we can't get a top level free agent... when have we ever been in the position and attempted to?  It's funny to say no one would want to come here when it has never really happend.  And we've seen a variety of lower level free agents thrilled to come here, and high level trade players.

And it has nothing to do with the history of the 80's Celtics.  Players don't even know about the history that much besides the name, never mind base their decisions of where to end up.  If anything they would simply look back at the history and say "they have won in the past" and "they have a rich history" as every new addition has.

I think our program and the execs willingness to spend money and do whatever needs to be done to win are very attractive.  And players go to cold markets.  Is Chicago tropical or something?  Boozer seemed happy to go there.

[StartOrien]

I blame the spendocrats*



*blatantly trying to rile people up

[Who]

If it isn't NY, players don't want to live in cold weather cities. LA, Miami, Orlando, Houston, and Phoenix have always been able to get the top tier. Rarely do they go to cities like Boston and Chicago. We have to build it the old fashion way. Great drafts (Bird, Pierce, Rondo) and great trades (McHale, Parish, Garnett, Allen). When the Celtics have built great teams, aging veterans have always wanted to come along for the ride (Walton, PJ, Rasheed, Shaq).

TP. This was exactly my opinion as to why they don't want to come. I was interested in others opinions. I don't buy the racist idea.

Do you remember when Duncan, Hill, and McGrady were free agents? The Bulls went after all three and got basically nothing. They ended up signing Eddie Robinson to a 5-year,$32 million contract. Hill and McGrady went to warm Orlando and Duncan stayed in warm San Antonio. Oddly enough, they tried the same thing again this year. Warm Miami ended up getting Lebron and Bosh. Luckily for the Bulls, Carlos Boozer is from Alaska.

The Bulls got nothing that year because they won 17 games the year before and had barely anything on the roster (RoY Elton Brand).

In contrast, the Bulls had a .500 team with a core Derrick Rose, Luol Deng and Joakim Noah this season so they were able to land a sought after free agent in Carlos Boozer.

---------------------------------------------------

You have to be able to offer the player a quality situation.

A chance to win. A chance to enjoy his basketball. 

[bdm860]

Since "Tier 1" is so subjective, I decided to put together a list of All-Star players who changed teams the season after being an All-Star via either signing as a free agent or through a sign-and-trade.

(This is off the top of my head, so feel let me know if I'm missing anything, but I researched most, and had to cut a lot of guys out who weren't All-Stars the year before, Nash being a big one, Boozer, Brand, among others).

Atlanta Hawks
Dikembe Mutombo '96

Boston Celtics
Dominique Wilkins '94
Dana Barros '95

Charlotte Bobcats

Chicago Bulls
Ben Wallace '06

Cleveland Cavaliers

Dallas Mavericks

Denver Nuggets
Kenyon Martin '04

Detroit Pistons

Golden State Warriors
David Lee '10

Houston Rockets
Scottie Pippen '99

Indiana Pacers

LA Clippers

LA Lakers
Shaquille O'Neal '96
Gary Payton '03

Memphis Grizzlies
Allen Iverson '09

Miami Heat
Juwan Howard '96 (but later voided)
LeBron James '10
Chris Bosh '10

Milwaukee Bucks
Anthony Mason '01

Minnesota Timberwolves

New Jersey Nets

New Orleans Hornets

New York Knicks
Amare Stoudemire '10

Seattle Supersonics/Oklahoma City Thunder

Orlando Magic
Grant Hill '00

Philadelphia Sixers
Allen Iverson '09

Phoenix Suns
Danny Manning '94

Portland Trail Blazers

Sacramento Kings
Brad Miller '03

San Antonio Spurs

Toronto Raptors

Utah Jazz

Washington Wizards


I think the truth is, most teams don't sign Tier 1 free agents at all.  Most top guys re-sign with their current teams.  If you take out Allen Iverson who shouldn't have been an All-Star in '09, and the major free agents that signed in '96 and '10 then practically nobody has signed an All-Star free agent, and many of the ones who did were at the tail end of their careers (Payton, Miller, Manning).  Of course we could extend the list a little but then it gets very subjective - do you include guys like Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva in '09, Lamar Odom and Andre Miller in '03, Larry Hughes in '05?)

I think the fact that our guys are willing to re-sign shows that the city of Boston isn't a problem.  I mean Toronto has lost McGrady and Bosh, Cleveland has lost Boozer and LeBron, Detroit has lost Grant Hill and Ben Wallace.  Who have the C's not been able to keep?  Rodney Rogers? Tony Allen?