Why can't Boston attract a Tier 1 Free Agent?!

[EJPLAYA]

At 1st I completely agreed with the OP. I still feel we miss out on alot of the free agents b/c they don't like the weather ie. they prefer the big Hollywood cities like LA and NYC.

Where I disagree now is that fact that this team for the past 30 years has been very traditional and loyal to its stars, Pierce, Toine, the original Big 3 and now KG and Ray and Rondo. A true star comes here to win a ring, they're kept here and resigned for years. There's no cap room for the Amare and Melo and LeBrons.

In a fantasy league, or 2k11, you could make it happen. Pick up free agents for Mid lvl exp and trade junk for Lebron etc. It's possible. And in a perfect world, LeBron and free agents of the future like him will understand they make more money on endorsements and coming to a stud team to win rings makes more sense. Come here for MLE and play for a few years. Then cash in. Boston could be just as bad as LAL with the lack of concern for luxury tax. Pay the players w/e and win back to backs

Which big FA went to NYC before Amare?

One problem is that most big FA re-sign.

Exactly.

This summer was an anomally. How many teir 1 guys actually make it to unrestricted free agency? NBA teams are generally built through drafts and trades. This offseason was nuts.

It looks now like we will actually have cap space in 2012. If someone big is out there we will certainly be in the running to get him. I understand the question by the OP and it is a good discussion. It just so happens that the past 30 years we have never been in position to sign anyone big. In the 80's Red wheeled and dealed to build a great roster. In the 90s we were a terribly managed team which took on a lot of bad contracts. And now Danny is wheeling and dealing like Red to build his teams.

TP to you because that is exactly my point. There is a big section of people on here that think all we have to do is  sit tight and people will flock to come and play with Rondo. I don't think that will happen first of all, and the results if they don't are disastrous. Let's let DA do his wheeling and dealing and trade Rondo for a really good deal and force the issue. We have to be willing to let him go though and come to the conclusion that he isn't enough to make a bunch of tier 3 guys contenders.

[CelticsWhat35]

The winters are harsh, the summers are wet, and the perception is that everyone there is white and Irish. That's the over-generalization.

What exactly do you mean by "the summers are wet"?  Do you think it rains a lot?  I think the northeast is probably about the best place to be during the spring/summer.  Fall/winter??? Not so much.

[indeedproceed]

The winters are harsh, the summers are wet, and the perception is that everyone there is white and Irish. That's the over-generalization.

What exactly do you mean by "the summers are wet"?  Do you think it rains a lot?  I think the northeast is probably about the best place to be during the spring/summer.  Fall/winter??? Not so much.

I always thought the summers in MA/Maine, especially near the coast were rainier than most places. No?

[Roy H.]

The winters are harsh, the summers are wet, and the perception is that everyone there is white and Irish. That's the over-generalization.

What exactly do you mean by "the summers are wet"?  Do you think it rains a lot?  I think the northeast is probably about the best place to be during the spring/summer.  Fall/winter??? Not so much.

Wet from all the blood the mosquitoes and black flies take?  At least here in Maine.  I'm guessing he meant the humidity, though, which can get pretty bad.

I love New England summers, though. 

[Chief]

If it isn't NY, players don't want to live in cold weather cities. LA, Miami, Orlando, Houston, and Phoenix have always been able to get the top tier. Rarely do they go to cities like Boston and Chicago. We have to build it the old fashion way. Great drafts (Bird, Pierce, Rondo) and great trades (McHale, Parish, Garnett, Allen). When the Celtics have built great teams, aging veterans have always wanted to come along for the ride (Walton, PJ, Rasheed, Shaq).

[dpaps]

The winters are harsh, the summers are wet, and the perception is that everyone there is white and Irish. That's the over-generalization.

What exactly do you mean by "the summers are wet"?  Do you think it rains a lot?  I think the northeast is probably about the best place to be during the spring/summer.  Fall/winter??? Not so much.

Yeah by summers are wet, he probably meant humidity, which is completely accurate. I lived in LA for the past 6 years and the summers there are hotter, but they don't feel that way because there's no humidity. Places like North Carolina, Seattle, San Fran, all have arguably much better summer weather. Less humid, sunnier, less bugs, etc.

[BballTim]

What exactly do you mean by "the summers are wet"?  Do you think it rains a lot? 

  Mainly on the weekend. It's warm and sunny from Monday-Friday though.

[rondohondo]

Also, for whatever it's worth, we've done okay with attracting Tier 2 free agents.  Rasheed was probably the most coveted mid-level free agent last year, and he had his pick of contenders to go to (San Antonio, Orlando, etc.)  He chose Boston.  Jermaine O'Neal did the same thing this past off-season.

At the very least, that shows that we can compete with other cities when it comes to attracting free agents.  When the money is even, guys have chosen to come here.

I don't disagree with this at all. I think we are destined to be a Tier 2 free agent market. I see us getting the same situation Chicago did in the offseason and instead of getting a Lebron and Bosh, getting  Boozer and Kyle Korver.

If we don't get at least 1 superstar level player to play with Rondo and a Tier 2 player or two to go along with them, we aren't going to win anything. Historically speaking I just don't see that happening. I think the best thing that we could do to increase our chances of competing for a title would be to trade Rondo and filler for a low draft pick and a couple Tier 2 guys and hope you draft the superstar. Otherwise I think we return to the 90's again. Pretending that someone of Tier 1 status will come here when history shows otherwise is kind of futile.

so your plan to be a contender after the big 3 are gone is to trade Rondo for a low draft pick and a couple of tier 2 players ? Rondo himself is a tier 2 player and is going to have a greater impact than any other tier 2 player you bring in .

And then hope to get lucky in the draft?

This sounds like a great plan if you want to relive the 90's all over again.

The C's will most likely have around 35 mil on their pay role in 2012 with

PP
Rondo
Bradley
Perk or BBD

That means they will still have a ton of cap space to bring in another free agent to help build around.

Guys like Chris Paul, Eric Gordon, Kevin Love, Dwight Howard, Javel McGee,Gerald Wallace,O.J. Mayo,Michael Beasley,Brook Lopez,   will/could be free agents . I would much rather take a shot at trying to sign one of these guys in 2012 than to just trade Rondo away. You can always trade him after we see how the 2012 free agency plays out. Whats the rush with trading Rondo away ?

[CelticsWhat35]

The winters are harsh, the summers are wet, and the perception is that everyone there is white and Irish. That's the over-generalization.

What exactly do you mean by "the summers are wet"?  Do you think it rains a lot?  I think the northeast is probably about the best place to be during the spring/summer.  Fall/winter??? Not so much.

Yeah by summers are wet, he probably meant humidity, which is completely accurate. I lived in LA for the past 6 years and the summers there are hotter, but they don't feel that way because there's no humidity. Places like North Carolina, Seattle, San Fran, all have arguably much better summer weather. Less humid, sunnier, less bugs, etc.

I admit the mosquitos can be bad during the summer, and the sand fleas down the cape are brutal, but I've been to both California and North Carolina during the summer, and in both places, especially Sacramento, the heat was like a punch in the face.  And that was in late August.  I could only imagine what it was like in July.

I must say though, Lake Tahoe is one of the best places I've ever been too.  I could definitely see living out there if I didn't have any family keeping me in Mass.

[Greenbean]

At 1st I completely agreed with the OP. I still feel we miss out on alot of the free agents b/c they don't like the weather ie. they prefer the big Hollywood cities like LA and NYC.

Where I disagree now is that fact that this team for the past 30 years has been very traditional and loyal to its stars, Pierce, Toine, the original Big 3 and now KG and Ray and Rondo. A true star comes here to win a ring, they're kept here and resigned for years. There's no cap room for the Amare and Melo and LeBrons.

In a fantasy league, or 2k11, you could make it happen. Pick up free agents for Mid lvl exp and trade junk for Lebron etc. It's possible. And in a perfect world, LeBron and free agents of the future like him will understand they make more money on endorsements and coming to a stud team to win rings makes more sense. Come here for MLE and play for a few years. Then cash in. Boston could be just as bad as LAL with the lack of concern for luxury tax. Pay the players w/e and win back to backs

Which big FA went to NYC before Amare?

One problem is that most big FA re-sign.

Exactly.

This summer was an anomally. How many teir 1 guys actually make it to unrestricted free agency? NBA teams are generally built through drafts and trades. This offseason was nuts.

It looks now like we will actually have cap space in 2012. If someone big is out there we will certainly be in the running to get him. I understand the question by the OP and it is a good discussion. It just so happens that the past 30 years we have never been in position to sign anyone big. In the 80's Red wheeled and dealed to build a great roster. In the 90s we were a terribly managed team which took on a lot of bad contracts. And now Danny is wheeling and dealing like Red to build his teams.

TP to you because that is exactly my point. There is a big section of people on here that think all we have to do is  sit tight and people will flock to come and play with Rondo. I don't think that will happen first of all, and the results if they don't are disastrous. Let's let DA do his wheeling and dealing and trade Rondo for a really good deal and force the issue. We have to be willing to let him go though and come to the conclusion that he isn't enough to make a bunch of tier 3 guys contenders.

We agree until you say trade Rondo.

I like the idea of building around him. The key acquisition, whether it will be through trade or draft post big 3 is going to be a big man who can score.

***I have no idea why i wrote "we". Greenbean is only one person...we think.

[EJPLAYA]

If it isn't NY, players don't want to live in cold weather cities. LA, Miami, Orlando, Houston, and Phoenix have always been able to get the top tier. Rarely do they go to cities like Boston and Chicago. We have to build it the old fashion way. Great drafts (Bird, Pierce, Rondo) and great trades (McHale, Parish, Garnett, Allen). When the Celtics have built great teams, aging veterans have always wanted to come along for the ride (Walton, PJ, Rasheed, Shaq).

TP. This was exactly my opinion as to why they don't want to come. I was interested in others opinions. I don't buy the racist idea.

[EJPLAYA]

Also, for whatever it's worth, we've done okay with attracting Tier 2 free agents.  Rasheed was probably the most coveted mid-level free agent last year, and he had his pick of contenders to go to (San Antonio, Orlando, etc.)  He chose Boston.  Jermaine O'Neal did the same thing this past off-season.

At the very least, that shows that we can compete with other cities when it comes to attracting free agents.  When the money is even, guys have chosen to come here.

I don't disagree with this at all. I think we are destined to be a Tier 2 free agent market. I see us getting the same situation Chicago did in the offseason and instead of getting a Lebron and Bosh, getting  Boozer and Kyle Korver.

If we don't get at least 1 superstar level player to play with Rondo and a Tier 2 player or two to go along with them, we aren't going to win anything. Historically speaking I just don't see that happening. I think the best thing that we could do to increase our chances of competing for a title would be to trade Rondo and filler for a low draft pick and a couple Tier 2 guys and hope you draft the superstar. Otherwise I think we return to the 90's again. Pretending that someone of Tier 1 status will come here when history shows otherwise is kind of futile.

so your plan to be a contender after the big 3 are gone is to trade Rondo for a low draft pick and a couple of tier 2 players ? Rondo himself is a tier 2 player and is going to have a greater impact than any other tier 2 player you bring in .

And then hope to get lucky in the draft?

This sounds like a great plan if you want to relive the 90's all over again.

The C's will most likely have around 35 mil on their pay role in 2012 with

PP
Rondo
Bradley
Perk or BBD

That means they will still have a ton of cap space to bring in another free agent to help build around.

Guys like Chris Paul, Eric Gordon, Kevin Love, Dwight Howard, Javel McGee,Gerald Wallace,O.J. Mayo,Michael Beasley,Brook Lopez,   will/could be free agents . I would much rather take a shot at trying to sign one of these guys in 2012 than to just trade Rondo away. You can always trade him after we see how the 2012 free agency plays out. Whats the rush with trading Rondo away ?

Yes, let's sign Chris Paul in free agency to pair with Rondo and Perk. That's a 4-5 year guaranteed championship run.

The premise of the discussion is that the top tier guys, which only Chris Paul IMO is one of them aren't going to come here. That leaves this ragtag group of guys will be what you are left with. Nice players, but not a championship team. Let's say you get 2 of them even. Is Rondo, and Love and OJ Mayo going to win championships?! Not a chance!

You won't win a championship when your only superstar is a PG. Especially when he is a mediocre shooter at best. Most championship teams have their superstars at the 3 and the 4. We need to trade our only valuable asset at that time, Rondo, for a superstar 3-4 if possible, or a couple of tier 2 guys and a lottery pick. Otherwise our future is Rondo leaving in 4 years for nothing (sign and trade if we were real lucky) and we are now the Cleveland Cavs. Just ask them or Toronto...

If you want to guarantee mediocrity through the following 10 years, just go ahead and hang on to your only star that can't even get us in the playoffs by himself.


I love Rondo's game and would love to see him retire a Celtic. If I knew we could get a star and a couple tier 2 guys to put with him I'd prefer that over any other option. I would rather use him to rebuild and come back quickly though,  than see him walk after a couple horrible years leaving us to be a perennial lottery team.

[Chris]

I tried to get SOMEONE to answer this question in the Rondo thread but no one would/could. I think we all agree if we kept Perk, BBD, and added a couple of high end free agents with Rondo we could avoid rebuilding and remain competitors for Championships for years. Unfortunately in my 30+ years of being a die-hard fan I can not recall one Tier 1 NBA free agent that chose to come and play for the Celtics. Yes we have had a lot of great players over the years. We have 4 Hall of Fame players on our team right now. All of these however came from trades, or they came after they were no longer Tier 1 guys and were just looking to be the veteran presence for a few minutes to push us over the edge.

Can someone give me a legit reason why they won't come here, or some way we can change this history?! If we can't, we are going to have a long drought soon!

Well, its all about timing.  First, the C's have just not had that many chances recently when they had the cap space to even make an offer.  That is probably the biggest reason.

I am not sure about before the era of the cap, but I don't think that matters anyways, because a lot has changed since then in the city of Boston, so whatever those reasons were, they may not be the truth now.

As for why they may not attract them now, if they do have the cap space.  There are a few reasons:

1. Weather.  Obviously it depends on the player, but for many of them, this is huge.  These guys like to be comfortable, and if they have to choose between Boston and Miami or Orlando or Phoenix, they will probably choose the warmer place, everything else equal.

2. Nightlife/glamor.  Boston certainly has an advantage over placed like OKC and Sacramento, but coming to a place where the Bars close just a few hours after the game ends is not ideal for some young superstars.  Boston also is not really known as a glamorous city.  This would give places like NY, Chicago, and LA a distinct advantage.

3. Supporting cast.  As good as Rondo is, he still is a step below the truly elite players in the league IMO (although that could change, but its not a given).  And if its just him and an aging Pierce, and roleplayers like Perk, other teams could certainly have better supporting casts.  Remember, Pierce was not enough to attract KG here himself.  Also, Rondo has a unique personality, and I think a lot of players don't like him very much, despite his pass first mentality.

4. Taxes.  I think this is minimal, but some players might be turned off by state taxes in Mass.  

So those are all reasons why FA's might chose other teams.  It is all going to come down to who the other teams are, as well as the particular free agents. Every free agent will have different motivations.  Some will want to play with Rondo, some won't.  Some will be drawn to the history of the Celtics, others will be drawn to the beaches and golf courses.

This stuff is just so hard to predict, and you really can never count on any of it.  All you can do is put yourself into a position that if a player does want to play for you, you can bring them in.

[RJ87]

EJ, why are you always so angry and confrontational? Lol.

I'll do you one better: KG came here. No, he wasn't a free agent at the time, but he had the power to reject the trade. He didn't. And might I add, we signed him to a pretty hefty extension to help the trade to go through showing that if we have the money to spend and the opportunity is there we can attract big players.

He says confrontationally... Insulting someone and putting LOL behind it doesn't quite make personal insults okay. I'm not sure you where you are reading in my post that I insulted someone or was confrontational. I asked a question that if we are putting all our eggs in the "bring in a couple top tier free agents to play with Rondo" basket after these guys are gone, aren't we being a little presumptive since no big free agents have ever come here?

KG first of all turned down coming here and when he got the full court press from Pierce, Ray Allen was signed here, and there weren't any better options out there he decided to. Yes I think he is glad he did after the fact, but that wasn't his #1 option. If he had complete control it's unlikely he would have.

Relax, dude. I didn't insult you, it's called sarcasm. So breath, exhale. Calm. Trust me, if I wanted to insult you I'd do it straight out, no lol.

The Lakers also were trying to get KG, so he could've went there. As far as Ray and Paul "full court pressing" him, that's part of the recruitement process and all teams use it to some extent to gain an advantage in negotiation, so I'm not sure what your point is in that regard.

With all that said, this is pretty much a moot point. We have yet to really pursue a big name in free agency. It's not like we're continuously going after guys and they're rejecting us. We work within our financial contraints and use the strengths of our franchise (history, a chance to win) to bring in the guys we need. In 2012, if we hit free agency hard and come up empty, I'll start to panic then.

[dpaps]

EJ, why are you always so angry and confrontational? Lol.

I'll do you one better: KG came here. No, he wasn't a free agent at the time, but he had the power to reject the trade. He didn't. And might I add, we signed him to a pretty hefty extension to help the trade to go through showing that if we have the money to spend and the opportunity is there we can attract big players.

He says confrontationally... Insulting someone and putting LOL behind it doesn't quite make personal insults okay. I'm not sure you where you are reading in my post that I insulted someone or was confrontational. I asked a question that if we are putting all our eggs in the "bring in a couple top tier free agents to play with Rondo" basket after these guys are gone, aren't we being a little presumptive since no big free agents have ever come here?

KG first of all turned down coming here and when he got the full court press from Pierce, Ray Allen was signed here, and there weren't any better options out there he decided to. Yes I think he is glad he did after the fact, but that wasn't his #1 option. If he had complete control it's unlikely he would have.

Relax, dude. I didn't insult you, it's called sarcasm. So breath, exhale. Calm. Trust me, if I wanted to insult you I'd do it straight out, no lol.

The Lakers also were trying to get KG, so he could've went there. As far as Ray and Paul "full court pressing" him, that's part of the recruitement process and all teams use it to some extent to gain an advantage in negotiation, so I'm not sure what your point is in that regard.

With all that said, this is pretty much a moot point. We have yet to really pursue a big name in free agency. It's not like we're continuously going after guys and they're rejecting us. We work within our financial contraints and use the strengths of our franchise (history, a chance to win) to bring in the guys we need. In 2012, if we hit free agency hard and come up empty, I'll start to panic then.

He answered your comment even more confrontationally (I don't think this is a word), lol