Author Topic: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals  (Read 36982 times)

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Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2010, 02:35:42 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I don't see where the Bulls get the offense.

Mike Miller has played poorly for two straight years. Sorry he just hasn't been that good. And I don't buy into, "well around LeBron he'll play better" because I don't see proof of that in real life. Did Jamison or Moon or Shaq play better this year then they did in the previous year because they were with Lebron?

Tony Allen. Do I really have to go further about what he brings offensively.

Eric Maynor. Really, a rookie PG that wasn't even good enough to get 16 minutes a game and is a poor shooter.

Brandon Jennings. Is he going to grow out of shooting 37% from the field or out of his 47% true shooting percentage?

Noah. Very similar to Varejao in that they are great defenders and rebounders but poor offensive players. Noah has hit his ceiling offensively, much the way AV has while playing alongside Lebron. His very limited offensive game isn't getting much better if at all. I mean think about it if I asked you name the player in the league that is most similar to Anderson Varejao, who are you going to pick? Joakin Noah most likely. Why if AV and his limited skills offensively aren't that much better playing with Lebron would Noah's be that much better?

Ilyasova. Another nice defender and rebounder and quietly efficient offensive player but he is very limited.

I just don't see where the Bulls get the points and when they have foul trouble, things just get worse with that awful bench.

I was just saying something similar to IP.  My big concern with Chicago, outside of its lack of depth, is its lack of shooting.  Noah is a terrible shooter, and Ilyasova is spotty.  Miller can shoot, but chooses not to.  Jennings is a gunner who is inefficient and won't have the ball in his hands.

Can Lebron, surrounded by one above-average shooter who rarely shoots, beat a complete team?  I have my doubts. 


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Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #91 on: September 16, 2010, 02:36:47 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I don't see where the Bulls get the offense.

Mike Miller has played poorly for two straight years. Sorry he just hasn't been that good. And I don't buy into, "well around LeBron he'll play better" because I don't see proof of that in real life. Did Jamison or Moon or Shaq play better this year then they did in the previous year because they were with Lebron?

Tony Allen. Do I really have to go further about what he brings offensively.

Eric Maynor. Really, a rookie PG that wasn't even good enough to get 16 minutes a game and is a poor shooter.

Brandon Jennings. Is he going to grow out of shooting 37% from the field or out of his 47% true shooting percentage?

Noah. Very similar to Varejao in that they are great defenders and rebounders but poor offensive players. Noah has hit his ceiling offensively, much the way AV has while playing alongside Lebron. His very limited offensive game isn't getting much better if at all. I mean think about it if I asked you name the player in the league that is most similar to Anderson Varejao, who are you going to pick? Joakin Noah most likely. Why if AV and his limited skills offensively aren't that much better playing with Lebron would Noah's be that much better?

Ilyasova. Another nice defender and rebounder and quietly efficient offensive player but he is very limited.

I just don't see where the Bulls get the points and when they have foul trouble, things just get worse with that awful bench.

You're just repeating yourself now, and you're not offering anything to refute actual numbers.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #92 on: September 16, 2010, 02:39:05 PM »

Offline jgod213

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Man, between the two conferences, there is A LOT of information to process here (and it's only 2pm!).  There has got to be a more efficent way to do this, no?

Maybe next year we can institute a "final arguement" session where the last points are made and no more may be posted until after voting has ended.  You guys are all great at this (much better than i am), but it gets real tough trying to read through all of the arguements/debates/propaganda/stats/ect...

You guys mentioned that some people may just vote based on 'look of the teams' and i think that is right to a degree...but i'm not so sure that 20 pages of point/counter-point necessarily help things.

I'm doing my best to keep up with all this but when i leave my computer at 4pm and get back to vote at 8pm i'm not going to want to read through an extra 63 pages (although i'll give it my best shot).  I dunno, just saying maybe these rounds need a little more structure going forward, but maybe i'm in the minority?

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Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #93 on: September 16, 2010, 02:43:38 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I don't see where the Bulls get the offense.

Mike Miller has played poorly for two straight years. Sorry he just hasn't been that good. And I don't buy into, "well around LeBron he'll play better" because I don't see proof of that in real life. Did Jamison or Moon or Shaq play better this year then they did in the previous year because they were with Lebron?

Tony Allen. Do I really have to go further about what he brings offensively.

Eric Maynor. Really, a rookie PG that wasn't even good enough to get 16 minutes a game and is a poor shooter.

Brandon Jennings. Is he going to grow out of shooting 37% from the field or out of his 47% true shooting percentage?

Noah. Very similar to Varejao in that they are great defenders and rebounders but poor offensive players. Noah has hit his ceiling offensively, much the way AV has while playing alongside Lebron. His very limited offensive game isn't getting much better if at all. I mean think about it if I asked you name the player in the league that is most similar to Anderson Varejao, who are you going to pick? Joakin Noah most likely. Why if AV and his limited skills offensively aren't that much better playing with Lebron would Noah's be that much better?

Ilyasova. Another nice defender and rebounder and quietly efficient offensive player but he is very limited.

I just don't see where the Bulls get the points and when they have foul trouble, things just get worse with that awful bench.

You're just repeating yourself now, and you're not offering anything to refute actual numbers.
IP I can make numbers say that my business made a 40% profit or lost 40% that doesn't make those actual numbers true.

You derived number and results based on assumptions of continued per minute production through increasing of minutes. It doesn't work that way.

The fact that you had to derive those number because many of the players have never played the amount of minutes that you have them playing speaks more about the lack of depth and poor fit of players into roles on your team than the fairy tale numbers you concocted.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2010, 02:44:26 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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TP IP....this is fun!!

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2010, 02:46:04 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Man, between the two conferences, there is A LOT of information to process here (and it's only 2pm!).  There has got to be a more efficent way to do this, no?

Maybe next year we can institute a "final arguement" session where the last points are made and no more may be posted until after voting has ended.  You guys are all great at this (much better than i am), but it gets real tough trying to read through all of the arguements/debates/propaganda/stats/ect...

You guys mentioned that some people may just vote based on 'look of the teams' and i think that is right to a degree...but i'm not so sure that 20 pages of point/counter-point necessarily help things.

I'm doing my best to keep up with all this but when i leave my computer at 4pm and get back to vote at 8pm i'm not going to want to read through an extra 63 pages (although i'll give it my best shot).  I dunno, just saying maybe these rounds need a little more structure going forward, but maybe i'm in the minority?

If you want the thumbnail sketch version of how I see my matchup, you can look here:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=41677.msg844889#msg844889


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2010, 02:56:44 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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Man, between the two conferences, there is A LOT of information to process here (and it's only 2pm!).  There has got to be a more efficent way to do this, no?

Maybe next year we can institute a "final arguement" session where the last points are made and no more may be posted until after voting has ended.  You guys are all great at this (much better than i am), but it gets real tough trying to read through all of the arguements/debates/propaganda/stats/ect...

You guys mentioned that some people may just vote based on 'look of the teams' and i think that is right to a degree...but i'm not so sure that 20 pages of point/counter-point necessarily help things.

I'm doing my best to keep up with all this but when i leave my computer at 4pm and get back to vote at 8pm i'm not going to want to read through an extra 63 pages (although i'll give it my best shot).  I dunno, just saying maybe these rounds need a little more structure going forward, but maybe i'm in the minority?

If you want the thumbnail sketch version of how I see my matchup, you can look here:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=41677.msg844889#msg844889

Dont Muddy up our thread with your JV brand of basketball over there in the West.  The big boys are talking ;)
CB Draft LA Lakers: Lamarcus Aldridge, Carmelo Anthony,Jrue Holiday, Wes Matthews  6.11, 7.16, 8.14, 8.15, 9.16, 11.5, 11.16

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2010, 03:01:02 PM »

Offline Who

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If Mike Miller is defending Manu Ginobili, the Chicago Bulls do not have a hope in winning this series.

LeBron James has to take that defensive assignment. TA can take over when he enters the game.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2010, 03:04:50 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Lebron James is now the 6th most disliked professional American athlete. Apparently he's up there with the rapist(Kobe), the adulterer(Tiger), the dog killer(Vick) and the Cincinnati Idiots(TO and Ochocinco).

Must be those General Custer like leader of men qualities that he has that has everyone loving him. ::)

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #99 on: September 16, 2010, 03:10:33 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Lebron James is now the 6th most disliked professional American athlete. Apparently he's up there with the rapist(Kobe), the adulterer(Tiger), the dog killer(Vick) and the Cincinnati Idiots(TO and Ochocinco).

Must be those General Custer like leader of men qualities that he has that has everyone loving him. ::)


People hate him because he either

a) left their team

or

b) didn't sign with their team.



How do they like him on his team (Miami) or by the Heat fans?



Shoot, I want my players to be hated by those outside  the team.  Think how many people hate the Celtics recently.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2010, 03:11:38 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I don't see where the Bulls get the offense.

Mike Miller has played poorly for two straight years. Sorry he just hasn't been that good. And I don't buy into, "well around LeBron he'll play better" because I don't see proof of that in real life. Did Jamison or Moon or Shaq play better this year then they did in the previous year because they were with Lebron?

Tony Allen. Do I really have to go further about what he brings offensively.

Eric Maynor. Really, a rookie PG that wasn't even good enough to get 16 minutes a game and is a poor shooter.

Brandon Jennings. Is he going to grow out of shooting 37% from the field or out of his 47% true shooting percentage?

Noah. Very similar to Varejao in that they are great defenders and rebounders but poor offensive players. Noah has hit his ceiling offensively, much the way AV has while playing alongside Lebron. His very limited offensive game isn't getting much better if at all. I mean think about it if I asked you name the player in the league that is most similar to Anderson Varejao, who are you going to pick? Joakin Noah most likely. Why if AV and his limited skills offensively aren't that much better playing with Lebron would Noah's be that much better?

Ilyasova. Another nice defender and rebounder and quietly efficient offensive player but he is very limited.

I just don't see where the Bulls get the points and when they have foul trouble, things just get worse with that awful bench.

I was just saying something similar to IP.  My big concern with Chicago, outside of its lack of depth, is its lack of shooting.  Noah is a terrible shooter, and Ilyasova is spotty.  Miller can shoot, but chooses not to.  Jennings is a gunner who is inefficient and won't have the ball in his hands.

Can Lebron, surrounded by one above-average shooter who rarely shoots, beat a complete team?  I have my doubts.  

To clarify my case:

Brandon Jennings is absolutely destroying Raymond Felton so far at this point in their careers. Jennings should only get better, and with less of an offensive burden, should become more efficient. Even if he doesn't get better than he already is, through one season and 4 games he's outscored Felton by 10 points per contest.

Ersan Ilyasova as a starter shot 35% from 3, and 42% from the field. That's not All-star, but it is better than spotty, and if Scola does indeed allow Ilyasova to shoot, Ilyasova could win some games on his own. 6-8 from 3 with 3 or 4 easy layins off of pick and rolls could make 24 points happen real easy. Scola will need to score 20+ points nightly for Washington to win.

Miller, as you have said, has forgone his shot. He's been playing for crappy teams where he was the best ball handler on the floor. He's now playing with his good friend LeBron James, and won't be counted on to be a facilitator anymore. As long as he keeps shooting at his current clip, which nobody is disputing, I don't see how he doesn't get his buckets.

Even that said, here is what you said about my projected per minute stats:

Any evidence that Mike Miller is all of a sudden going to bounce back after two subpar years in a row?  He's still efficient, but he's lost all aggression with his shot.

The projected stats you showed in your chart look reasonable enough to me, other than that I wouldn't expect to see Von Wafer average 8 points in 16 minutes.  I don't think he'll catch lightning in a bottle like that again, especially after a poor year in Greece.

Basically same deal about Miller, and when pressed with this:

Any evidence that Mike Miller is all of a sudden going to bounce back after two subpar years in a row?  He's still efficient, but he's lost all aggression with his shot.

The projected stats you showed in your chart look reasonable enough to me.

I don't have evidence for Miller bouncing back, but I have some theories with some meat.
-the last time Mike Miller averaged above 15 PPG was in 2006-2007. That year the Memphis Grizzlies went 22-60.
-the previous 3 years the grizzlies had been playoff teams, with Miller averaging 12.7 points, capping out at 13.7 in the final year of the Griz's playoff runs.
-The year Miller averaged 18.5 (06-07) points, he was averaging 40 minutes per night on a team that had high preseason exceptions, but failed ultimately because of a myriad of factors, injuries being one.

I think that Miller kind of burned out after that year. The next year the Griz were miserable, he averaged 16 ppg, the next year he was traded to Minnesota, they were miserable, he averaged about 10 ppg.

I think Miller is just suffering from being a role player on a terrible team-itis. I think he can be a viable 3rd option on a winning team, and playing along side good friend LeBron James, on a team that honestly has no chance of having a losing record, ought to be enough to get him caring again.

It makes sense to me, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, Roy.


You responded:

I have no idea what's going on with Miller.  You would have thought that he'd jack up all kinds of shots on the bad teams he's been on.  I guess the big concern is 1) he's lost his aggressiveness, and 2) he has absolutely no ability to create for himself any more.  You worry that he's turned into Jason Kapono.


So here is the issue I'm having.

Brandon Jennings has proved he can score on Raymond Felton, even when Felton is backed by the top 5 defense of the Charlotte Bobcats.

Mike Miller is playing for a team that will be asking him to shoot more and won't be asking him to facilitate the offense (at least as a primary ball handler), and he'll be being asked by a coach (Alvin Gentry) that everyone respects and a player (LeBron James) that beyond being the best basketball player on the planet, is also a good friend.

Nick is saying he wants to keep Luis Scola in the paint and let Ilyasova chuck. Ilyasova was a 35% shooter from 3 last year as a starter. Coach Scott Skiles himself says he expects Ilyasova to become roughly a 37% 3pt shooter next season, as he fully adjusts to the NBA 3pt line. But even if he doesn't, if Scola isn't guarding him, what is stopping him from scoring?

Noah isn't a good shooter, but he's a pretty good finisher at the rim, and his high energy and eagerness to set screens makes him an adequate pick and roll partner to get 3-4 easy buckets a night, coupled with 3-4 made FT's.

I think those are all reasonable and probable expectations.


But here is the real point:

LeBron James will be being guarded by Wilson Chandler, a guy who has proven he not only cannot
slow LeBron down, but who LeBron actually plays better against.

How is that not going to get more easy looks for shooters Miller/Ilyasova/Jennings? How is it not going to get more buckets for LeBron? How is that not going to result in more easy buckets in the paint for Noah?

The issue isn't can the Bulls score on Washington. The issue is 'can Washington stop the bulls from scoring'?

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2010, 03:14:32 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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Boxes and Bulls

I'm lazy and have been in my own conferences thread all day. Give me no more than 5 bullet points, in under 300 words on why I should vote for your teams

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2010, 03:26:15 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Boxes and Bulls

I'm lazy and have been in my own conferences thread all day. Give me no more than 5 bullet points, in under 300 words on why I should vote for your teams

I can do it in 4.

1) LeBron James has dominated Wilson Chandler for both their respective careers. Chandler cannot slow him down, he only makes him better.

2) Brandon Jennings's average over 4 games against Raymond Felton last season was 19.5ppg for Jennings to 9.0ppg for Felton

3) My team has a better or comparable rebounder at every single position on the floor. In the 2 times last season the Bulls and Lakers played, Noah out-rebounded Bynum 20 to 3 and 15 to 8, respectively. Rebounding will be a big issue and Washington will lose that battle.

4) No team has ever beat a LeBon James led squad in the playoffs without an elite defender in the block and a very good wing defender. Orlando had Dwight and Pietrus, Boston had Pierce/Garnett and Perkins...Nick has Bynum/Chandler. Say what you want about LeBron as a person, but those results are just flat out true.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2010, 03:32:22 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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Boxes and Bulls

I'm lazy and have been in my own conferences thread all day. Give me no more than 5 bullet points, in under 300 words on why I should vote for your teams

I can do it in 4.

1) LeBron James has dominated Wilson Chandler for both their respective careers. Chandler cannot slow him down, he only makes him better.

2) Brandon Jennings's average over 4 games against Raymond Felton last season was 19.5ppg for Jennings to 9.0ppg for Felton

3) My team has a better or comparable rebounder at every single position on the floor. In the 2 times last season the Bulls and Lakers played, Noah out-rebounded Bynum 20 to 3 and 15 to 8, respectively. Rebounding will be a big issue and Washington will lose that battle.

4) No team has ever beat a LeBon James led squad in the playoffs without an elite defender in the block and a very good wing defender. Orlando had Dwight and Pietrus, Boston had Pierce/Garnett and Perkins...Nick has Bynum/Chandler. Say what you want about LeBron as a person, but those results are just flat out true.

Well done. TP.

I encourage the other East matchup to do the same.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2010, 03:40:03 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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I voted for Chicago because I can' remember a time when an MVP winner lost to a team without multiple all stars .


This is still important.