CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals

[KCattheStripe]

I voted for Chicago because I can' remember a time when an MVP winner lost to a team without multiple all stars .

[Rondo2287]

At this point i love nicks big 3 of bynum, scola, and manu.  I am not sure if there is a better big man tandum than those two in the league. 

Im not sold on Jennings but i dont hate him either.  Lebron is Lebron and while people say that he hasnt won anything yet, there is also no question in my mind that he is the best player in the league period. 

Noah is really the swing vote for me here.  If noah can continue to grow offensively i think IP's team would win.  If Noah is what he is offensively than I gotta give the knod to nick.

At this point i gotta go with nick I think because i dont believe there is enough scoring to back up bron bron

[Fafnir]

At this point i love nicks big 3 of bynum, scola, and manu.  I am not sure if there is a better big man tandum than those two in the league. 

Im not sold on Jennings but i dont hate him either.  Lebron is Lebron and while people say that he hasnt won anything yet, there is also no question in my mind that he is the best player in the league period. 

Noah is really the swing vote for me here.  If noah can continue to grow offensively i think IP's team would win.  If Noah is what he is offensively than I gotta give the knod to nick.

At this point i gotta go with nick I think because i dont believe there is enough scoring to back up bron bron

I'm not sure how much Noah will grow offensively, but I think if he played with LeBron he'd get many more garbage buckets than he does wtih Derrick Rose.

LeBron's only been beaten by great team defenses, I'm don't think the Boxers can play that against him.

[indeedproceed]

So can I get a quick status check to see where people are leaning, how they're viewing our teams?

nick has made some serious inroads, I think.  I'm officially on the fence.  I think depth is just a huge concern for you.

I don't see it that way.

Over 90% of my minutes are being played by 8 players. I've severely shortened my rotation to 9 guys, with one of Michael Redd/Von Wafer filling in the majority of the rest.

Brandon Jennings and Eric Maynor are going to man the point.

Mike Miller and LeBron James are the starting wings and should see the most court time together on the wings at one time. After that, there will be the following pairings: Tony Allen/LeBron, Tony Allen/Mike Miller, Tony Allen/Michael Redd or Wafer

Ersan/Noah are my starters and should see a lot of time together, but after that the pairings will go Amundson/Noah, Ersan/Amundson, LeBron/Amundson, and for 5 mins a game, Amundson/Asik

In this series, Noah defender Bynum whenever Bynum is on the floor. I don't think, based on their head to head play, that Bynum is any less of a 'risk' to get into foul trouble than Noah, and neither one went past 4 personal fouls. In fact, since LeBron and Jennings will be driving the lane like Tony Stewart, I think both Scola and Bynum could see time on the bench for foul trouble early.

When Tony is in the game, he'll guard Manu, assuming Manu is in. If Manu isn't in, Tony will guard Chandler. If neither is in, I probably won't put in Tony at all.

Amundson can guard Scola, and he can hassle but probably not slow down Bynum much. Hopefully Amundson won't spend any time on Bynum.

[indeedproceed]

At this point i love nicks big 3 of bynum, scola, and manu.  I am not sure if there is a better big man tandum than those two in the league. 

Im not sold on Jennings but i dont hate him either.  Lebron is Lebron and while people say that he hasnt won anything yet, there is also no question in my mind that he is the best player in the league period. 

Noah is really the swing vote for me here.  If noah can continue to grow offensively i think IP's team would win.  If Noah is what he is offensively than I gotta give the knod to nick.

At this point i gotta go with nick I think because i dont believe there is enough scoring to back up bron bron

Did you already vote? If you haven't, give me 10 minutes to find something that might change your mind.

[Rondo2287]

At this point i love nicks big 3 of bynum, scola, and manu.  I am not sure if there is a better big man tandum than those two in the league. 

Im not sold on Jennings but i dont hate him either.  Lebron is Lebron and while people say that he hasnt won anything yet, there is also no question in my mind that he is the best player in the league period. 

Noah is really the swing vote for me here.  If noah can continue to grow offensively i think IP's team would win.  If Noah is what he is offensively than I gotta give the knod to nick.

At this point i gotta go with nick I think because i dont believe there is enough scoring to back up bron bron

Did you already vote? If you haven't, give me 10 minutes to find something that might change your mind.

Im not gonna vote till like 8 tonight you got time IP

[nickagneta]

I'm glad you brought that up, Roy.

One thing about Washington that I thought should be a negative point in their column: Nobody on their team has ever led an NBA Franchise. Luis Scola is not the leader in Houston, Andrew Bynum is not the leader in LA, Manu Ginobli is not the leader in San Antonio.

In fact, for all the finals experience these guys have, and both Bynum and Manu have had their games in the playoffs, neither one knows what it is like to lead a team.

Meanwhile, LeBron James was the leader in Cleveland through one finals run, and one conference finals run. You might not think he was a great leader, but he did produce results.

Joakim Noah is the emotional leader in Chicago and was a leader at FLordia to 2 NCAA championships.

Brandon Jennings showed his own leadership capabilities this season in Milwaukee, both in his role as the starting point guard during the season and the increased production during the playoffs when Bogut went down.

Washington doesn't have their leader. They've got 3 second fiddles and a smattering of role players.

I actually find this comical coming from a Celtics fan. Who was the Celtic leader in 2008. Pierce, Allen, KG, Rondo? Who was the Pistons leader in 2004? Chauncey, Rasheed, Rip, Big Ben? I don't think in either case there was a clear leader nor do I believe there has to be one.

Who was the clear leader of the Cavs teams? How many titles they win?

Meanwhile those second bananas on the Boxers have 5 NBA titles and they have a player on the bench with another.

[indeedproceed]

At this point i love nicks big 3 of bynum, scola, and manu.  I am not sure if there is a better big man tandum than those two in the league.

I'd like some clarification there. You like them more than Boozer/Randolph? Gasol/Yao? I don't think they're close to that.

Im not sold on Jennings but i dont hate him either.

I don't want mind if you don't 'like' Brandon Jennings, or think he's got room to grow, but do me a favor and take a look at the H2H's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jennibr01&p2=feltora01

4 games, and these aren't the crappy H2H's where the players aren't playing each other, or they played disparate minutes or whatever..this is 2 PG's, both at over 30 mpg. Brandon Jennings absolutely owns him. You might not buy Jennings yet, but do you buy that Jennings is going to destroy Felton, and in this matchup will be a real menace?

Lebron is Lebron and while people say that he hasnt won anything yet, there is also no question in my mind that he is the best player in the league period.

Your eloquence defies your youth, and is rivaled only by your beauty. 

Noah is really the swing vote for me here.  If noah can continue to grow offensively i think IP's team would win.  If Noah is what he is offensively than I gotta give the knod to nick.

At this point i gotta go with nick I think because i dont believe there is enough scoring to back up bron bron

Take a look at this:



Direct Link if you can't see

This will come with a bit of a caveat, I still used Von Wafer's numbers from 2008-2009, and I will admit they cannot be taken as gospel.

Still, I expect one of Michael Redd or Von Wafer to prove they have some burn left in them. Whichever one you want to pick, or think will be better go ahead. I have them scoring 5 points in 10 minutes, spread out all over the game. I also didn't count any contribution from starting center for FIBA Finals team Turkey, Omer Asik (5 mins) or Gani Lawal (2 mins).

Other than that, all the players have their same per minute scoring averages and the teams' FG%, 3pt%, and FT% are all completely on board with total shots made/total shots taken.

The only player Nick can point at and really speculate is Ersan Ilyasova, but I think you would agree, Rondo, that both Ilyasova and Jennings have room to grow, and should get better, not worse in the coming season, while Michael Miller's scoring should become more efficient.

My team can score on Nick's boys. I hope I proved that.

[nickagneta]

So can I get a quick status check to see where people are leaning, how they're viewing our teams?

nick has made some serious inroads, I think.  I'm officially on the fence.  I think depth is just a huge concern for you.

I don't see it that way.

Over 90% of my minutes are being played by 8 players. I've severely shortened my rotation to 9 guys, with one of Michael Redd/Von Wafer filling in the majority of the rest.

Brandon Jennings and Eric Maynor are going to man the point.

Mike Miller and LeBron James are the starting wings and should see the most court time together on the wings at one time. After that, there will be the following pairings: Tony Allen/LeBron, Tony Allen/Mike Miller, Tony Allen/Michael Redd or Wafer

Ersan/Noah are my starters and should see a lot of time together, but after that the pairings will go Amundson/Noah, Ersan/Amundson, LeBron/Amundson, and for 5 mins a game, Amundson/Asik

In this series, Noah defender Bynum whenever Bynum is on the floor. I don't think, based on their head to head play, that Bynum is any less of a 'risk' to get into foul trouble than Noah, and neither one went past 4 personal fouls. In fact, since LeBron and Jennings will be driving the lane like Tony Stewart, I think both Scola and Bynum could see time on the bench for foul trouble early.

When Tony is in the game, he'll guard Manu, assuming Manu is in. If Manu isn't in, Tony will guard Chandler. If neither is in, I probably won't put in Tony at all.

Amundson can guard Scola, and he can hassle but probably not slow down Bynum much. Hopefully Amundson won't spend any time on Bynum.

And again, if you are now admitting to using 8 players what happens WHEN your team has foul trouble? This isn't an if. Every team has foul trouble with a player in a game in the playoffs. Sometime two and three players. What player it is changes from game to game.

So what happens when your team has foul trouble, especially in the front court or at the point. Gani Lawal or Eric Maynor or Omer Asik are suddenly going to jump up off the bench and give your team meaningful, productive minutes?

Are those minutes going to be akin those those Mikki Moore and Shelden Williams provided for the C's coming off the bench in desperate situations the past two years? If so, and I believe it is, your team has problems. Big problems.

[indeedproceed]

I'm glad you brought that up, Roy.

One thing about Washington that I thought should be a negative point in their column: Nobody on their team has ever led an NBA Franchise. Luis Scola is not the leader in Houston, Andrew Bynum is not the leader in LA, Manu Ginobli is not the leader in San Antonio.

In fact, for all the finals experience these guys have, and both Bynum and Manu have had their games in the playoffs, neither one knows what it is like to lead a team.

Meanwhile, LeBron James was the leader in Cleveland through one finals run, and one conference finals run. You might not think he was a great leader, but he did produce results.

Joakim Noah is the emotional leader in Chicago and was a leader at FLordia to 2 NCAA championships.

Brandon Jennings showed his own leadership capabilities this season in Milwaukee, both in his role as the starting point guard during the season and the increased production during the playoffs when Bogut went down.

Washington doesn't have their leader. They've got 3 second fiddles and a smattering of role players.

I actually find this comical coming from a Celtics fan. Who was the Celtic leader in 2008. Pierce, Allen, KG, Rondo? Who was the Pistons leader in 2004? Chauncey, Rasheed, Rip, Big Ben? I don't think in either case there was a clear leader nor do I believe there has to be one.

Who was the clear leader of the Cavs teams? How many titles they win?

Meanwhile those second bananas on the Boxers have 5 NBA titles and they have a player on the bench with another.

That's a spin job if I ever saw it, and not a fair comparison.

Leader on that C's team? Pierce, Allen, and KG had all by that time been the leaders on playoff teams. They all had the experience of a number 1, and they all helped carry that load, because they understood it.

Now I've seen the 2008 Celtics, I've watched the 2008 Celtics, and your Boxers, sir, are no 2008 Boston Celtics. Not even within spitting distance. Your defense compared to them, is atrocious, and there is no leader on your team, just a bunch of guys who saw other people lead.

The Detroit team is usually the exception to the rule, but even then Chauncey Billups was the leader before Rasheed got there, and he was the leader they lost, and the reason they haven't made the playoffs in 2 seasons.

Your Boxers don't have a leader. That's fact, sir.

[indeedproceed]

So can I get a quick status check to see where people are leaning, how they're viewing our teams?

nick has made some serious inroads, I think.  I'm officially on the fence.  I think depth is just a huge concern for you.

I don't see it that way.

Over 90% of my minutes are being played by 8 players. I've severely shortened my rotation to 9 guys, with one of Michael Redd/Von Wafer filling in the majority of the rest.

Brandon Jennings and Eric Maynor are going to man the point.

Mike Miller and LeBron James are the starting wings and should see the most court time together on the wings at one time. After that, there will be the following pairings: Tony Allen/LeBron, Tony Allen/Mike Miller, Tony Allen/Michael Redd or Wafer

Ersan/Noah are my starters and should see a lot of time together, but after that the pairings will go Amundson/Noah, Ersan/Amundson, LeBron/Amundson, and for 5 mins a game, Amundson/Asik

In this series, Noah defender Bynum whenever Bynum is on the floor. I don't think, based on their head to head play, that Bynum is any less of a 'risk' to get into foul trouble than Noah, and neither one went past 4 personal fouls. In fact, since LeBron and Jennings will be driving the lane like Tony Stewart, I think both Scola and Bynum could see time on the bench for foul trouble early.

When Tony is in the game, he'll guard Manu, assuming Manu is in. If Manu isn't in, Tony will guard Chandler. If neither is in, I probably won't put in Tony at all.

Amundson can guard Scola, and he can hassle but probably not slow down Bynum much. Hopefully Amundson won't spend any time on Bynum.

And again, if you are now admitting to using 8 players what happens WHEN your team has foul trouble? This isn't an if. Every team has foul trouble with a player in a game in the playoffs. Sometime two and three players. What player it is changes from game to game.

So what happens when your team has foul trouble, especially in the front court or at the point. Gani Lawal or Eric Maynor or Omer Asik are suddenly going to jump up off the bench and give your team meaningful, productive minutes?

Are those minutes going to be akin those those Mikki Moore and Shelden Williams provided for the C's coming off the bench in desperate situations the past two years? If so, and I believe it is, your team has problems. Big problems.

So you're asking me what happens if (my word)/when (your word) Ersan Ilyasova and Joakim Noah both have 2 fouls early, right?

[Roy H.]

Your Boxers don't have a leader. That's fact, sir.

I like Manu in the leadership role.  He's been the unquestioned leader on teams that have won Olympic gold medals and Euroleague championships.  He's also been a leader by example on the Spurs, of course.  It takes a big man to come off the bench to do what his team needs.

[nickagneta]

I don't see where the Bulls get the offense.

Mike Miller has played poorly for two straight years. Sorry he just hasn't been that good. And I don't buy into, "well around LeBron he'll play better" because I don't see proof of that in real life. Did Jamison or Moon or Shaq play better this year then they did in the previous year because they were with Lebron?

Tony Allen. Do I really have to go further about what he brings offensively.

Eric Maynor. Really, a rookie PG that wasn't even good enough to get 16 minutes a game and is a poor shooter.

Brandon Jennings. Is he going to grow out of shooting 37% from the field or out of his 47% true shooting percentage?

Noah. Very similar to Varejao in that they are great defenders and rebounders but poor offensive players. Noah has hit his ceiling offensively, much the way AV has while playing alongside Lebron. His very limited offensive game isn't getting much better if at all. I mean think about it if I asked you name the player in the league that is most similar to Anderson Varejao, who are you going to pick? Joakin Noah most likely. Why if AV and his limited skills offensively aren't that much better playing with Lebron would Noah's be that much better?

Ilyasova. Another nice defender and rebounder and quietly efficient offensive player but he is very limited.

I just don't see where the Bulls get the points and when they have foul trouble, things just get worse with that awful bench.

[indeedproceed]

Your Boxers don't have a leader. That's fact, sir.

I like Manu in the leadership role.  He's been the unquestioned leader on teams that have won Olympic gold medals and Euroleague championships.  He's also been a leader by example on the Spurs, of course.  It takes a big man to come off the bench to do what his team needs.

I don't buy Manu as the leader on this team. Leading an Olympic squad full of guys that speak your primary language, eat the same food, and worship you as a legend is a lot different than leading on a team full NBA players to who you are unknown as a leader (sans the convenient Scola). Also, if you're going to be making the case for Manu, you might as well make the case for Scola, which I don't think would be anymore valid. Neither one is capable of galvanizing this team.

[nickagneta]

I'm glad you brought that up, Roy.

One thing about Washington that I thought should be a negative point in their column: Nobody on their team has ever led an NBA Franchise. Luis Scola is not the leader in Houston, Andrew Bynum is not the leader in LA, Manu Ginobli is not the leader in San Antonio.

In fact, for all the finals experience these guys have, and both Bynum and Manu have had their games in the playoffs, neither one knows what it is like to lead a team.

Meanwhile, LeBron James was the leader in Cleveland through one finals run, and one conference finals run. You might not think he was a great leader, but he did produce results.

Joakim Noah is the emotional leader in Chicago and was a leader at FLordia to 2 NCAA championships.

Brandon Jennings showed his own leadership capabilities this season in Milwaukee, both in his role as the starting point guard during the season and the increased production during the playoffs when Bogut went down.

Washington doesn't have their leader. They've got 3 second fiddles and a smattering of role players.

I actually find this comical coming from a Celtics fan. Who was the Celtic leader in 2008. Pierce, Allen, KG, Rondo? Who was the Pistons leader in 2004? Chauncey, Rasheed, Rip, Big Ben? I don't think in either case there was a clear leader nor do I believe there has to be one.

Who was the clear leader of the Cavs teams? How many titles they win?

Meanwhile those second bananas on the Boxers have 5 NBA titles and they have a player on the bench with another.

That's a spin job if I ever saw it, and not a fair comparison.

Leader on that C's team? Pierce, Allen, and KG had all by that time been the leaders on playoff teams. They all had the experience of a number 1, and they all helped carry that load, because they understood it.

Now I've seen the 2008 Celtics, I've watched the 2008 Celtics, and your Boxers, sir, are no 2008 Boston Celtics. Not even within spitting distance. Your defense compared to them, is atrocious, and there is no leader on your team, just a bunch of guys who saw other people lead.

The Detroit team is usually the exception to the rule, but even then Chauncey Billups was the leader before Rasheed got there, and he was the leader they lost, and the reason they haven't made the playoffs in 2 seasons.

Your Boxers don't have a leader. That's fact, sir.

Again, leadership.....severely over rated.

But if you want to bring it up exactly what has LeBron led?

He's led deeper and much more talented teams to playoff defeat year after year after year and this past year QUIT on his team.

Tremendous leadership you have there IP. I heard Custer was a great leader of men as well. Look what happened to him. LeBron James, the General Custer of the NBA when it comes to leadership.

Yeah I'll take Scola, Haslem, Bynum, Manu and their leadership abilities, there gold medals and their championship rings. You can have General Custer.