2026 Red Sox/MLB Season Thread

[BitterJim]

I learned about the 4th out rule a couple weeks ago, but never expected to seeit (well, hear it) live in a game. Such a weird rule but hey a run is a run

Not the 2 we needed, though

It's weird that an illegal run is counted.  I can see why the Jays didn't appeal; the runner was never called safe.

Can other illegal runs score?  Like, it a guy is halfway between second and third just heads straight home and crosses the plate, would that run also count if it scored before the 3rd non-force out?

I'm not sure about that exact situation, but I don't think so? The basic idea of the rule is that the defense never got him out (by stepping on third), so the run still counts. In your example, though, I believe skipping a base then stepping on the next is an automatic out (that may require a review, but not any tag)

In this case "appeal" isn't asking the refs for a challenge, but literally just the act of stepping on 3rd with the ball (for example, the runner at first was "out on appeal"). So the ump doesn't have to call him safe, the team just needs to step on 3rd and then that 4th out will negate the run. They have until the infield crosses the foul line to step on 3rd.

It seems like the only person who knew what was going on was Max Scherzer, he was on the wrong side of the same situation in 2009 when he was on the Diamondbacks and obviously never forgot it as a result

[Vermont Green]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

[Roy H.]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

I guess the last paragraph is the right way to think of it, but it's just a bizarre rule to me, that an illegal run can stand if it's not challenged.  I think the umps should be allowed to be proactive there and have the authority not to allow illegal runs, even if not challenged.

[Vermont Green]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

I guess the last paragraph is the right way to think of it, but it's just a bizarre rule to me, that an illegal run can stand if it's not challenged.  I think the umps should be allowed to be proactive there and have the authority not to allow illegal runs, even if not challenged.

I always thought the appeal rule was strange.  The ump at 3rd base would know if the runner left too early, but doesn't declare them out unless it is appealed.  Same if a runner missed a bag while running the bases.  The ump could rule the runner out on any tag up play where the runner left too early.  It seems more egregious when the runner did not even try to tag up, but I can see how from a letter of the rule standpoint, that it is the same thing.

If they change this rule, it would have to change the tag up/appeal rule also, which is not necessarily a bad idea.  But otherwise, how to you parse if a runner attempted to tag but left too early from a runner who just didn't know how many outs?

[Roy H.]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

I guess the last paragraph is the right way to think of it, but it's just a bizarre rule to me, that an illegal run can stand if it's not challenged.  I think the umps should be allowed to be proactive there and have the authority not to allow illegal runs, even if not challenged.

I always thought the appeal rule was strange.  The ump at 3rd base would know if the runner left too early, but doesn't declare them out unless it is appealed.  Same if a runner missed a bag while running the bases.  The ump could rule the runner out on any tag up play where the runner left too early.  It seems more egregious when the runner did not even try to tag up, but I can see how from a letter of the rule standpoint, that it is the same thing.

If they change this rule, it would have to change the tag up/appeal rule also, which is not necessarily a bad idea.  But otherwise, how to you parse if a runner attempted to tag but left too early from a runner who just didn't know how many outs?

I would just change it as you suggested:  the umpire has complete autonomy to call a runner out if they left too early, without any sort of appeal.

[BitterJim]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

I guess the last paragraph is the right way to think of it, but it's just a bizarre rule to me, that an illegal run can stand if it's not challenged.  I think the umps should be allowed to be proactive there and have the authority not to allow illegal runs, even if not challenged.

I always thought the appeal rule was strange.  The ump at 3rd base would know if the runner left too early, but doesn't declare them out unless it is appealed.  Same if a runner missed a bag while running the bases.  The ump could rule the runner out on any tag up play where the runner left too early.  It seems more egregious when the runner did not even try to tag up, but I can see how from a letter of the rule standpoint, that it is the same thing.

If they change this rule, it would have to change the tag up/appeal rule also, which is not necessarily a bad idea.  But otherwise, how to you parse if a runner attempted to tag but left too early from a runner who just didn't know how many outs?

I would just change it as you suggested:  the umpire has complete autonomy to call a runner out if they left too early, without any sort of appeal.

When are they out on a tag up, though? You still need the defense to appeal by tagging the base, otherwise that rule would mean that an ump could randomly call someone out even if both the offense and defense thought he tagged up correctly

An easier change would just be to change the definition of a run/timing play to specifically exclude runners that have not tagged up on a ball that is caught (even if they beat the 3rd out happening at a different base). Just close the loophole instead of making a large change to umpire powers. Unless there's another (similar) example of this type of play that the simple change wouldn't fix, but I can't really think of any.

[Vermont Green]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

I guess the last paragraph is the right way to think of it, but it's just a bizarre rule to me, that an illegal run can stand if it's not challenged.  I think the umps should be allowed to be proactive there and have the authority not to allow illegal runs, even if not challenged.

I always thought the appeal rule was strange.  The ump at 3rd base would know if the runner left too early, but doesn't declare them out unless it is appealed.  Same if a runner missed a bag while running the bases.  The ump could rule the runner out on any tag up play where the runner left too early.  It seems more egregious when the runner did not even try to tag up, but I can see how from a letter of the rule standpoint, that it is the same thing.

If they change this rule, it would have to change the tag up/appeal rule also, which is not necessarily a bad idea.  But otherwise, how to you parse if a runner attempted to tag but left too early from a runner who just didn't know how many outs?

I would just change it as you suggested:  the umpire has complete autonomy to call a runner out if they left too early, without any sort of appeal.

When are they out on a tag up, though? You still need the defense to appeal by tagging the base, otherwise that rule would mean that an ump could randomly call someone out even if both the offense and defense thought he tagged up correctly

An easier change would just be to change the definition of a run/timing play to specifically exclude runners that have not tagged up on a ball that is caught (even if they beat the 3rd out happening at a different base). Just close the loophole instead of making a large change to umpire powers. Unless there's another (similar) example of this type of play that the simple change wouldn't fix, but I can't really think of any.

This is where it gets tricky.  So the ump can call the base runner out for not tagging properly if the 3rd out occurs, but what about if it is only the 1st out of an inning and the runner on 3rd leaves too early and scores, or advances from any base.  Should that runner be deemed out if the defense doesn't appeal or tag the base otherwise?  It is a weird rule, but the runner is not out until the defense tags 3rd base (or whatever base).

I think there is a fix here, I just haven't figured out exactly what the fix should be.  But a runner is not out just because they don't tag up.  The runner can advance as far as they want and then run back before the base is tagged.  It is a tricky rule.

[Roy H.]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

I guess the last paragraph is the right way to think of it, but it's just a bizarre rule to me, that an illegal run can stand if it's not challenged.  I think the umps should be allowed to be proactive there and have the authority not to allow illegal runs, even if not challenged.

I always thought the appeal rule was strange.  The ump at 3rd base would know if the runner left too early, but doesn't declare them out unless it is appealed.  Same if a runner missed a bag while running the bases.  The ump could rule the runner out on any tag up play where the runner left too early.  It seems more egregious when the runner did not even try to tag up, but I can see how from a letter of the rule standpoint, that it is the same thing.

If they change this rule, it would have to change the tag up/appeal rule also, which is not necessarily a bad idea.  But otherwise, how to you parse if a runner attempted to tag but left too early from a runner who just didn't know how many outs?

I would just change it as you suggested:  the umpire has complete autonomy to call a runner out if they left too early, without any sort of appeal.

When are they out on a tag up, though? You still need the defense to appeal by tagging the base, otherwise that rule would mean that an ump could randomly call someone out even if both the offense and defense thought he tagged up correctly

An easier change would just be to change the definition of a run/timing play to specifically exclude runners that have not tagged up on a ball that is caught (even if they beat the 3rd out happening at a different base). Just close the loophole instead of making a large change to umpire powers. Unless there's another (similar) example of this type of play that the simple change wouldn't fix, but I can't really think of any.

This is where it gets tricky.  So the ump can call the base runner out for not tagging properly if the 3rd out occurs, but what about if it is only the 1st out of an inning and the runner on 3rd leaves too early and scores, or advances from any base.  Should that runner be deemed out if the defense doesn't appeal or tag the base otherwise?  It is a weird rule, but the runner is not out until the defense tags 3rd base (or whatever base).

I think there is a fix here, I just haven't figured out exactly what the fix should be.  But a runner is not out just because they don't tag up.  The runner can advance as far as they want and then run back before the base is tagged.  It is a tricky rule.

I'd call them out as soon as they left the field or otherwise "abandoned" an attempt to advance or retouch a base.  That's already an existing rule.

[BitterJim]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

I guess the last paragraph is the right way to think of it, but it's just a bizarre rule to me, that an illegal run can stand if it's not challenged.  I think the umps should be allowed to be proactive there and have the authority not to allow illegal runs, even if not challenged.

I always thought the appeal rule was strange.  The ump at 3rd base would know if the runner left too early, but doesn't declare them out unless it is appealed.  Same if a runner missed a bag while running the bases.  The ump could rule the runner out on any tag up play where the runner left too early.  It seems more egregious when the runner did not even try to tag up, but I can see how from a letter of the rule standpoint, that it is the same thing.

If they change this rule, it would have to change the tag up/appeal rule also, which is not necessarily a bad idea.  But otherwise, how to you parse if a runner attempted to tag but left too early from a runner who just didn't know how many outs?

I would just change it as you suggested:  the umpire has complete autonomy to call a runner out if they left too early, without any sort of appeal.

When are they out on a tag up, though? You still need the defense to appeal by tagging the base, otherwise that rule would mean that an ump could randomly call someone out even if both the offense and defense thought he tagged up correctly

An easier change would just be to change the definition of a run/timing play to specifically exclude runners that have not tagged up on a ball that is caught (even if they beat the 3rd out happening at a different base). Just close the loophole instead of making a large change to umpire powers. Unless there's another (similar) example of this type of play that the simple change wouldn't fix, but I can't really think of any.

This is where it gets tricky.  So the ump can call the base runner out for not tagging properly if the 3rd out occurs, but what about if it is only the 1st out of an inning and the runner on 3rd leaves too early and scores, or advances from any base.  Should that runner be deemed out if the defense doesn't appeal or tag the base otherwise?  It is a weird rule, but the runner is not out until the defense tags 3rd base (or whatever base).

I think there is a fix here, I just haven't figured out exactly what the fix should be.  But a runner is not out just because they don't tag up.  The runner can advance as far as they want and then run back before the base is tagged.  It is a tricky rule.

With less than 3 outs I would say the run counts unless they appeal (same as the current rule). That minimizes the ump's extra powers to just this exact situation

I don't mind requiring the defense to notice not tagging up and then throw to the base (ex: the situation above with <3 outs), but expecting them to know this exact rule and make the appeal before leaving the field just seems like too much of a technicality (even for baseball). It's too niche of a rule for it to be worth a whole run (an earned run, no less...)

[byennie]

I sort of understand the rationale behind timing plays, and 4th out appeals that led us here, but isn't this particular fix incredibly simple?

A runner leaving 3rd without tagging up is neither out, nor scored.
If the fielding team throws to 3rd, or appeals within the rules, then they are out.
If the baserunner returns to 3rd before leaving the field of play, then properly scores, the run counts.
If a 3rd out if recorded before either of those things, it doesn't matter. No run, no out.

[Phantom255x]

Hopefully we don't make history with a losing streak now 

[Vermont Green]

Sox in a "slump" or something.  Fortunately, they created some buffer space for themselves, still a 5 game lead over the Tigers who are 4th in the wild card.  DET is interesting.  Their run differential is +89, better than both BOS and NYY.  TEX is -31.  If you believe in run differential as an indicator, DET would be the team to watch to get into the wild card.

Sox still have some work to do if they want to make the playoffs.  Nice to see Rutschman on the field.  Now if we can get Anthony and Mead out there also, that should make a difference.  Logically, the Sox are in a very strong position but as for any life long Sox fan, it is hard not to worry.