2026 Red Sox/MLB Season Thread

[BitterJim]

I learned about the 4th out rule a couple weeks ago, but never expected to seeit (well, hear it) live in a game. Such a weird rule but hey a run is a run

Not the 2 we needed, though

It's weird that an illegal run is counted.  I can see why the Jays didn't appeal; the runner was never called safe.

Can other illegal runs score?  Like, it a guy is halfway between second and third just heads straight home and crosses the plate, would that run also count if it scored before the 3rd non-force out?

I'm not sure about that exact situation, but I don't think so? The basic idea of the rule is that the defense never got him out (by stepping on third), so the run still counts. In your example, though, I believe skipping a base then stepping on the next is an automatic out (that may require a review, but not any tag)

In this case "appeal" isn't asking the refs for a challenge, but literally just the act of stepping on 3rd with the ball (for example, the runner at first was "out on appeal"). So the ump doesn't have to call him safe, the team just needs to step on 3rd and then that 4th out will negate the run. They have until the infield crosses the foul line to step on 3rd.

It seems like the only person who knew what was going on was Max Scherzer, he was on the wrong side of the same situation in 2009 when he was on the Diamondbacks and obviously never forgot it as a result

[Vermont Green]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

[Roy H.]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

I guess the last paragraph is the right way to think of it, but it's just a bizarre rule to me, that an illegal run can stand if it's not challenged.  I think the umps should be allowed to be proactive there and have the authority not to allow illegal runs, even if not challenged.

[Vermont Green]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

I guess the last paragraph is the right way to think of it, but it's just a bizarre rule to me, that an illegal run can stand if it's not challenged.  I think the umps should be allowed to be proactive there and have the authority not to allow illegal runs, even if not challenged.

I always thought the appeal rule was strange.  The ump at 3rd base would know if the runner left too early, but doesn't declare them out unless it is appealed.  Same if a runner missed a bag while running the bases.  The ump could rule the runner out on any tag up play where the runner left too early.  It seems more egregious when the runner did not even try to tag up, but I can see how from a letter of the rule standpoint, that it is the same thing.

If they change this rule, it would have to change the tag up/appeal rule also, which is not necessarily a bad idea.  But otherwise, how to you parse if a runner attempted to tag but left too early from a runner who just didn't know how many outs?

[Roy H.]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

I guess the last paragraph is the right way to think of it, but it's just a bizarre rule to me, that an illegal run can stand if it's not challenged.  I think the umps should be allowed to be proactive there and have the authority not to allow illegal runs, even if not challenged.

I always thought the appeal rule was strange.  The ump at 3rd base would know if the runner left too early, but doesn't declare them out unless it is appealed.  Same if a runner missed a bag while running the bases.  The ump could rule the runner out on any tag up play where the runner left too early.  It seems more egregious when the runner did not even try to tag up, but I can see how from a letter of the rule standpoint, that it is the same thing.

If they change this rule, it would have to change the tag up/appeal rule also, which is not necessarily a bad idea.  But otherwise, how to you parse if a runner attempted to tag but left too early from a runner who just didn't know how many outs?

I would just change it as you suggested:  the umpire has complete autonomy to call a runner out if they left too early, without any sort of appeal.

[BitterJim]

I think the main point for the run scoring was that TOR did not tag 3rd base to make that runner out before leaving the field.  It would not really need to have been an "appeal", they just had to tag 3rd to make that runner out.  But in that situation, I don't believe the runner is automatically out.  The defense has to get the ball and tag 3rd base for him to be out, whether in the course of the play or by appeal.  Until the defense does that, it remains a live runner.

So in this case, that runner was never put out at 3B by the defense, the runner reached home before the 3rd out was made at 1B, and the defense did not appeal anything before leaving the field.  Very strange sequence of events for sure.

Think of it if the runner on 3rd did tag up but left a hair early, and scored before the 3rd out at 1st base.  It is kind of the same thing.  The runner would be ruled safe at home if he got there before the 3rd out.  The defense would then have to appeal the play at 3rd to have that runner deemed out and void the run (the 4th out).  Same thing except the runner left really early.

I guess the last paragraph is the right way to think of it, but it's just a bizarre rule to me, that an illegal run can stand if it's not challenged.  I think the umps should be allowed to be proactive there and have the authority not to allow illegal runs, even if not challenged.

I always thought the appeal rule was strange.  The ump at 3rd base would know if the runner left too early, but doesn't declare them out unless it is appealed.  Same if a runner missed a bag while running the bases.  The ump could rule the runner out on any tag up play where the runner left too early.  It seems more egregious when the runner did not even try to tag up, but I can see how from a letter of the rule standpoint, that it is the same thing.

If they change this rule, it would have to change the tag up/appeal rule also, which is not necessarily a bad idea.  But otherwise, how to you parse if a runner attempted to tag but left too early from a runner who just didn't know how many outs?

I would just change it as you suggested:  the umpire has complete autonomy to call a runner out if they left too early, without any sort of appeal.

When are they out on a tag up, though? You still need the defense to appeal by tagging the base, otherwise that rule would mean that an ump could randomly call someone out even if both the offense and defense thought he tagged up correctly

An easier change would just be to change the definition of a run/timing play to specifically exclude runners that have not tagged up on a ball that is caught (even if they beat the 3rd out happening at a different base). Just close the loophole instead of making a large change to umpire powers. Unless there's another (similar) example of this type of play that the simple change wouldn't fix, but I can't really think of any.