Celtics will regret not re-signing Tony

[gar]

There is no doubt that it will take time for Wafer to gel with the team; however Delonte should be able to get up to speed pretty quick (after first 10 games should be in synch). Quisy will be healthy and ready to roll. I don't see the problem. We gain offense and loose a little on Defense.

[FatjohnReturns]

If we are playing Miami in a tight game and Wade comes down and gets stuffed or stripped by TA. It fires up the team. How many times have we seen a game decided by 1 possesion late in the fourth quater? or in a 3 minute stretch?

If we're in a tight game and Von Wafer hits a big three, it can also be a game-changer and will fire up the crowd, wouldn't you agree?  How many times have we seen the Celtics come up short because they couldn't score timely buckets down the stretch?

But thats not who we are. Thats never been what we have been about since Garnett came here. Tony fit the pysche of this team. He was a lockdown defender on a defensive team.

and no watching Von Wafer launching threes is not going to be a game changer. We all watched Rasheed do it too much last year. Watching TA D up some of the best players in the league and get stops gets us pumped. Thats what were all about or at least thats how i see it.

[Change]

Good point because we typically play our second unit against good teams starting unit all the time…

What?! We put the starting 5 out there when Lebron and Wade are on the floor. Maybe we have 1 guy in there with the starters. When their second unit is on the floor giving their starters a rest then we have this lineup in. Do you really think we are going to have such a tough time defending their second squad of nobodies?! Do you really think we won't at least be able to outscore them?!

Lebron and Wade can play all 48minutes if he came down to it. Do you expect 35 year old Ray or 33 year old Pierce to match? And have enough endurance to score and still play D. At some point, they'll be matched against bench player. With ShaQ back there. It has disaster written over it. They'll tear the second unit apart. But if you have Tony, he guards them in spurts to disrupt their flow. And you bring Pierce and or Ray back fresh.

[Roy H.]

and no watching Von Wafer launching threes is not going to be a game changer. We all watched Rasheed do it too much last year. Watching TA D up some of the best players in the league and get stops gets us pumped. Thats what were all about or at least thats how i see it.

So, you don't think the crowd gets excited for Ray Allen (or in the past, Eddie House) threes?  Was Eddie House not a part of who we were, despite being a big part of the championship team?

I just don't understand this mentality that we have to be solely a defensive team, to the point where offense is almost looked upon as a negative thing.  There's a room for both -- for balance -- on the team.

Also, I think people are underrating the defense of Delonte and Marquis.  Neither is a lockdown defender, but both are above average.  Put it this way:  their defense is a lot better than Tony's offense is.

[j804]

If we are playing Miami in a tight game and Wade comes down and gets stuffed or stripped by TA. It fires up the team. How many times have we seen a game decided by 1 possesion late in the fourth quater? or in a 3 minute stretch?

If we're in a tight game and Von Wafer hits a big three, it can also be a game-changer and will fire up the crowd, wouldn't you agree?  How many times have we seen the Celtics come up short because they couldn't score timely buckets down the stretch?

But thats not who we are. Thats never been what we have been about since Garnett came here. Tony fit the pysche of this team. He was a lockdown defender on a defensive team.

and no watching Von Wafer launching threes is not going to be a game changer. We all watched Rasheed do it too much last year. Watching TA D up some of the best players in the league and get stops gets us pumped. Thats what were all about or at least thats how i see it.

This

[Roy H.]

Good point because we typically play our second unit against good teams starting unit all the time…

What?! We put the starting 5 out there when Lebron and Wade are on the floor. Maybe we have 1 guy in there with the starters. When their second unit is on the floor giving their starters a rest then we have this lineup in. Do you really think we are going to have such a tough time defending their second squad of nobodies?! Do you really think we won't at least be able to outscore them?!

Lebron and Wade can play all 48minutes if he came down to it. Do you expect 35 year old Ray or 33 year old Pierce to match? And have enough endurance to score and still play D. At some point, they'll be matched against bench player. With ShaQ back there. It has disaster written over it. They'll tear the second unit apart. But if you have Tony, he guards them in spurts to disrupt their flow. And you bring Pierce and or Ray back fresh.

The Celts should probably throw in the towel now, huh?  Tank for a lottery pick?

The team is going to be fine.  Give Marquis, Delonte, and Wafer a chance.

[j804]

Von is nice as u see my avatar think he could help us but not the impact Tony gave us defensively

[Change]

Good point because we typically play our second unit against good teams starting unit all the time…

What?! We put the starting 5 out there when Lebron and Wade are on the floor. Maybe we have 1 guy in there with the starters. When their second unit is on the floor giving their starters a rest then we have this lineup in. Do you really think we are going to have such a tough time defending their second squad of nobodies?! Do you really think we won't at least be able to outscore them?!

Lebron and Wade can play all 48minutes if he came down to it. Do you expect 35 year old Ray or 33 year old Pierce to match? And have enough endurance to score and still play D. At some point, they'll be matched against bench player. With ShaQ back there. It has disaster written over it. They'll tear the second unit apart. But if you have Tony, he guards them in spurts to disrupt their flow. And you bring Pierce and or Ray back fresh.

The Celts should probably throw in the towel now, huh?  Tank for a lottery pick?

The team is going to be fine.  Give Marquis, Delonte, and Wafer a chance.

Trade assists. Keep them for now. And hopefully Ainge gets a defender before trade deadline. Its just Miami duo scare the ************* outta me.

[FatjohnReturns]

Good point because we typically play our second unit against good teams starting unit all the time…

What?! We put the starting 5 out there when Lebron and Wade are on the floor. Maybe we have 1 guy in there with the starters. When their second unit is on the floor giving their starters a rest then we have this lineup in. Do you really think we are going to have such a tough time defending their second squad of nobodies?! Do you really think we won't at least be able to outscore them?!

Lebron and Wade can play all 48minutes if he came down to it. Do you expect 35 year old Ray or 33 year old Pierce to match? And have enough endurance to score and still play D. At some point, they'll be matched against bench player. With ShaQ back there. It has disaster written over it. They'll tear the second unit apart. But if you have Tony, he guards them in spurts to disrupt their flow. And you bring Pierce and or Ray back fresh.

The Celts should probably throw in the towel now, huh?  Tank for a lottery pick?

The team is going to be fine.  Give Marquis, Delonte, and Wafer a chance.

Wafer and Marquis are not good defenders. Delonte is 6'3 180 lbs. He is not big enough to guard Kobe,Lebron or Wade. Tony is 6'4 220. He physically can play with the same athleticism and power as these guys. Obviously he doesnt have the same skill set. He can still get out there and man up.

Like I said earlier Pierce and Ray did a ok job last year. This is now a new season and the perimeter defense on paper looks WEAK. I see opposing wing players driving the lane alot combined with Rondos penchant for gambleing. It doesnt look good. I see alot of pressure on a aging back line. I really do believe that if Ainge had known that he would have signed Shaq and Delonte for the price he did Tony would still be a Celtic Today.

[Roy H.]

Wafer and Marquis are not good defenders.

Here's what Doc said on the subject:

   "Of all the guys who guarded Paul (Pierce), I thought he did one of the best jobs," said Rivers.

    "High basketball IQ, multidimensional," Rivers said. "I mean, he can do so many different things. He can play the 2 and 3 for us. And he may be our best defender at the 1, 2 and 3. Rondo is the best (guarding point guards), but he's right behind him.

I actually thought Marquis looked good last year early on.  I think people should give him a chance to prove what he can do, rather than pine for a player who had more downs than ups during his Boston tenure, and who left because he wanted more of the spotlight.

[Change]

Wafer and Marquis are not good defenders. Delonte is 6'3 180 lbs. He is not big enough to guard Kobe,Lebron or Wade. Tony is 6'4 220. He physically can play with the same athleticism and power as these guys. Obviously he doesnt have the same skill set. He can still get out there and man up.

Like I said earlier Pierce and Ray did a ok job last year. This is now a new season and the perimeter defense on paper looks WEAK. I see opposing wing players driving the lane alot combined with Rondos penchant for gambleing. It doesnt look good. I see alot of pressure on a aging back line. I really do believe that if Ainge had known that he would have signed Shaq and Delonte for the price he did Tony would still be a Celtic Today.

You pretty much summed it up.

Had Ainge known JO & West & ShaQ would sign here, I believe Tony would still remain a Celtic. Or at least, Celtics try harder to keep him here.

[LooseCannon]

How many extra points do you think Tony is worth (points saved + points created), compared to Daniels?  How many extra points is he worth in those 3-4 minutes? 

And really, the analysis should be how many points are Tony, 2009 Daniels, and Michael Finley worth compared to 2010 Daniels, Von Wafer, and Delonte West.  I'd be hard-pressed to take the first group.

According to Basketball Prospectus, Wins Above Replacement Player and the estimated winning percentage of a team made up of the player and four average teammates in 2009-2010:

Tony Allen 1.7/.507
Marquis Daniels -1.3/.349
Michael Finlay -1.1/.335
Delonte West 2.6/.505

Also:
Daniels in 2008-2009 -0.2/.411
Von Wafer in 2008/2009 0.6/.438

And for comparison, some other names:
Matt Barnes 2.6/.479
Rudy Fernandez 1.4/.469
Rasual Butler -3.5/.353
Keith Bogans -3.1/.320
Tracy McGrady 0.3/.438
Ime Udoka -0.5/.392
Brian Scalabrine -1.5/.252
Roger Mason -1.7/.360
Larry Hughes 0.8/.451

And other Celtics:
Rajon Rondo 14.8/.662
Kevin Garnett 7.7/598
Paul Pierce 6.9/.557
Jermaine O'Neal 5.3/.547
Kendrick Perkins 5.2/.535
Shquille O'Neal 3.6/.556
Ray Allen 3.1/.470
Nate Robinson 2.6/.531
Glen Davis 0.4/.441

[Roy H.]

How many extra points do you think Tony is worth (points saved + points created), compared to Daniels?  How many extra points is he worth in those 3-4 minutes? 

And really, the analysis should be how many points are Tony, 2009 Daniels, and Michael Finley worth compared to 2010 Daniels, Von Wafer, and Delonte West.  I'd be hard-pressed to take the first group.

According to Basketball Prospectus, Wins Above Replacement Player and the estimated winning percentage of a team made up of the player and four average teammates in 2009-2010:

Tony Allen 1.7/.507
Marquis Daniels -1.3/.349
Michael Finlay -1.1/.335
Delonte West 2.6/.505

Also:
Daniels in 2008-2009 -0.2/.411
Von Wafer in 2008/2009 0.6/.438

And for comparison, some other names:
Matt Barnes 2.6/.479
Rudy Fernandez 1.4/.469
Rasual Butler -3.5/.353
Keith Bogans -3.1/.320
Tracy McGrady 0.3/.438
Ime Udoka -0.5/.392
Brian Scalabrine -1.5/.252
Roger Mason -1.7/.360
Larry Hughes 0.8/.451

And other Celtics:
Rajon Rondo 14.8/.662
Kevin Garnett 7.7/598
Paul Pierce 6.9/.557
Jermaine O'Neal 5.3/.547
Kendrick Perkins 5.2/.535
Shquille O'Neal 3.6/.556
Ray Allen 3.1/.470
Nate Robinson 2.6/.531
Glen Davis 0.4/.441

Looking at that list, I'd say it's a pretty flawed methodology.  Nate Robinson + four average players has a 53.1% winning percentage?  Perk + four average guys wins 53.5% of the time?  I don't think so; those sound a lot like lottery teams.

[Roy H.]

Just because it seems relevant:

SLAM: When Tony Allen left the team, he said he kind of felt overshadowed by some of the other stars on the team. Do you ever feel that way?

KP: Nah. I feel like without them, we wouldn’t be in the position that we are in right now. Without the Big Three forming, we wouldn’t get the TV pub that you get, and everything else you get. So it’s kind of hard to say, “overshadowing.” You’re really supposed to be kinda grateful to be in that situation.

SLAM: But do you ever wish that you got more touches or more love?

KP: Nah, not really. That’s not how our chemistry is. You’ve been in our locker room, you know how we roll. There’s only one goal; so at times you want to get better as an individual, but then there’s times that you’ll be in situations you’ve never been in before. Like, there’s not too many times where you could be on a team that has a chance to win the title. So why not take advantage of it?

I think Tony is going to have as much success in Memphis as James Posey has had in New Orleans.

[KobeGotRondoD]

If we are playing Miami in a tight game and Wade comes down and gets stuffed or stripped by TA. It fires up the team. How many times have we seen a game decided by 1 possesion late in the fourth quater? or in a 3 minute stretch?

If we're in a tight game and Von Wafer hits a big three, it can also be a game-changer and will fire up the crowd, wouldn't you agree?  How many times have we seen the Celtics come up short because they couldn't score timely buckets down the stretch?

But thats not who we are. Thats never been what we have been about since Garnett came here. Tony fit the pysche of this team. He was a lockdown defender on a defensive team.

and no watching Von Wafer launching threes is not going to be a game changer. We all watched Rasheed do it too much last year. Watching TA D up some of the best players in the league and get stops gets us pumped. Thats what were all about or at least thats how i see it.

Tony's impact was nothing. Yes he guarded the best player on the opposing team but we've made up for his loss by adding Delonte/Avery/Wafer/Nate to the mix. Team defense is what it's all about and that won't miss a beat next year.

All in all, danny gave our offense a huge boost this offseason and that will for sure make up for the loss of TA. We might not be solely a defensive juggernaut anymore but we will have a reliable bench that can produce points. Last season I am sure many of you noticed our offense was STAGNANT especially at times during the stretch (3rd or 4th quarter). That won't happen next year when you have guys like shaq and delonte on our bench now. (in addition to baby and nate)