Celtics will regret not re-signing Tony

[EJPLAYA]

In two years, we'll be able to count Tony as one of the many marginal role players who cashes in after one decent season and playoff performance.

He averages more turnovers than steals, and his [pee]-poor offensive production provides no advantage to any reduction in opponent's FG% that his defense may provide.

Yes, we're better off without Casino Tony.

  If you're expecting players to average more steals than turnovers, Tony (1.1st/1.2to) fairs much better than PP (1.2/2.3) or RA (0.8/1.6) whose ratios are both almost twice as bad. I also think that if he's able to put a damper on the best offensive player on the opposing team it has a bigger impact on the game than the difference between TA's offense and that of an average backup does.

Yes, and both of those players do stupid things on offense that causes these turnovers that needs to stop as well. PP dribbling between 2-3 guys through his legs for one, and Ray taking the ball into the middle and losing it off his knee. Comparing two guys who don't take care of the ball well off the dribble doesn't really help your case. Both are just marginally solid defenders at best.

[More Banners]

In two years, we'll be able to count Tony as one of the many marginal role players who cashes in after one decent season and playoff performance.

He averages more turnovers than steals, and his [pee]-poor offensive production provides no advantage to any reduction in opponent's FG% that his defense may provide.

Yes, we're better off without Casino Tony.

  If you're expecting players to average more steals than turnovers, Tony (1.1st/1.2to) fairs much better than PP (1.2/2.3) or RA (0.8/1.6) whose ratios are both almost twice as bad. I also think that if he's able to put a damper on the best offensive player on the opposing team it has a bigger impact on the game than the difference between TA's offense and that of an average backup does.

Yes, and both of those players do stupid things on offense that causes these turnovers that needs to stop as well. PP dribbling between 2-3 guys through his legs for one, and Ray taking the ball into the middle and losing it off his knee. Comparing two guys who don't take care of the ball well off the dribble doesn't really help your case. Both are just marginally solid defenders at best.

Also, neither PP nor Ray has that "defensive specialist" label that Tony seems to have been put on him, and both have the ball in their hands much, much more often.

[Fafnir]

In two years, we'll be able to count Tony as one of the many marginal role players who cashes in after one decent season and playoff performance.

He averages more turnovers than steals, and his [pee]-poor offensive production provides no advantage to any reduction in opponent's FG% that his defense may provide.

Yes, we're better off without Casino Tony.

  If you're expecting players to average more steals than turnovers, Tony (1.1st/1.2to) fairs much better than PP (1.2/2.3) or RA (0.8/1.6) whose ratios are both almost twice as bad. I also think that if he's able to put a damper on the best offensive player on the opposing team it has a bigger impact on the game than the difference between TA's offense and that of an average backup does.

Yes, and both of those players do stupid things on offense that causes these turnovers that needs to stop as well. PP dribbling between 2-3 guys through his legs for one, and Ray taking the ball into the middle and losing it off his knee. Comparing two guys who don't take care of the ball well off the dribble doesn't really help your case. Both are just marginally solid defenders at best.

Also, neither PP nor Ray has that "defensive specialist" label that Tony seems to have been put on him, and both have the ball in their hands much, much more often.

Tony turns it over much more often when he has the ball than Ray or Pierce.

17 TOV% compared to 13 and 10 for Paul/Ray.

[billysan]

My two cents:

The rookie will play decent defense in a year or so and make Tony Allen a distant (although fond) memory. Tony was a nice defensive player on the perimeter but certainly not irreplaceable. Include Marquis Daniels and a healthy focused Delonte West and Tony is easily replaced, actually upgraded. Neither will put up the turnover numbers or bad shots like Tony has in his Celtic career.

With the addition of Shaq and JO, we already will have a much better second unit interior defensive presence in the lane. Their added length and size will take pressure off the perimeter IMO because we wont worry as much about Rasheed Wallace standing outside shooting 3's instead of rebounding or shot blocking.

I liked Tony, but he was just one guy on a team. His athleticism was not what I would call off the charts the past two seasons. I would attribute much his defensive prowess those two seasons as due to the 'system' and team. He will regret going to Memphis and not being in the post season. I bet he doesnt get more than 20 mpg as a Grizzly this season.

If our defense suffers this season it will be because of losing Tom Thibadeau or an injury to Rondo/KG, not from missing Tony Allen's contributions.

[BballTim]

In two years, we'll be able to count Tony as one of the many marginal role players who cashes in after one decent season and playoff performance.

He averages more turnovers than steals, and his [pee]-poor offensive production provides no advantage to any reduction in opponent's FG% that his defense may provide.

Yes, we're better off without Casino Tony.

  If you're expecting players to average more steals than turnovers, Tony (1.1st/1.2to) fairs much better than PP (1.2/2.3) or RA (0.8/1.6) whose ratios are both almost twice as bad. I also think that if he's able to put a damper on the best offensive player on the opposing team it has a bigger impact on the game than the difference between TA's offense and that of an average backup does.

Just trying to keep the myth of The Great Tony Allen from getting out of hand.  I don't know if is actual game is improving this offseason (I doubt it), but his reputation around here certainly seems to be on the upswing.  Prediction:  He won't fill out his contract in Memphis, and they'll be eager to dump him on someone else by next summer.

He defends well, but tends to give it back on the other end.  As much as his D gives the team a boost, his TO's give the other team a boost as well.  That was my point.  On balance, that's a net zero; he can neither pass nor shoot, nor make reasonably intelligent decisions with the ball. 

Someone posted to the effect that 4th quarter defense is so important, but who in their right mind would want Tony Allen on the court in the 4th quarter of a close game?  Not this guy...

  I think his play goes up and down with his health. I don't think he cost us as much on the offensive end as we gain on the defensive end. we're getting below average production from our 3rd or 4th or 5th option, they're getting lower than average production from their 1st or 2nd option.

[j804]

If Tony wanted to leave to play a bigger role elsewhere, that's good for him.  The C's can't offer a huge role for him, but we will miss him.  He is an impact defender- he makes things happen not just with his fundamental defense, but with his special energy that not many players have.  Tony and Daniels aren't even in the same ballpark as far as defense goes.  Tony goes all out and tries to make plays, while Daniels looks like he's sleepwalking out there.  I just didn't see comparable effort between the two.

And if Doc has to play Ray and Paul extra minutes for defensive purposes, that is a very bad thing.  Someone earlier pointed out that yes, Paul and Ray can play good defense- but at their age they have nothing left for the offensive end if they are guarding a good player.  We have seen it time and time again.  And some wonder why Ray couldn't hit a shot in the finals... it's obvious to me.  He had no legs.  I was hoping this would be the year that Ray can finally play some age-appropriate minutes.  It looks that once again that won't happen.

This is it, what it all comes down to heavier minutes for our starters we will be even more gassed this year than last year if we even make the finals. smh

[BballTim]

In two years, we'll be able to count Tony as one of the many marginal role players who cashes in after one decent season and playoff performance.

He averages more turnovers than steals, and his [pee]-poor offensive production provides no advantage to any reduction in opponent's FG% that his defense may provide.

Yes, we're better off without Casino Tony.

  If you're expecting players to average more steals than turnovers, Tony (1.1st/1.2to) fairs much better than PP (1.2/2.3) or RA (0.8/1.6) whose ratios are both almost twice as bad. I also think that if he's able to put a damper on the best offensive player on the opposing team it has a bigger impact on the game than the difference between TA's offense and that of an average backup does.

Yes, and both of those players do stupid things on offense that causes these turnovers that needs to stop as well. PP dribbling between 2-3 guys through his legs for one, and Ray taking the ball into the middle and losing it off his knee. Comparing two guys who don't take care of the ball well off the dribble doesn't really help your case. Both are just marginally solid defenders at best.

  I didn't really have a case. I was just pointing out that more steals than turnovers is a pretty unrealistic expectation.

[BballTim]

Tony turns it over much more often when he has the ball than Ray or Pierce.

17 TOV% compared to 13 and 10 for Paul/Ray.

  This is true, but about 60% of Ray's possessions and about 50% of Paul's possessions end in jumpshots compared to about 22% for Tony. If Ray (23%) and Paul (33%) took the ball to the hoop as frequently as Tony (67%) it's likely they'd have a higher turnover rate than he does.

[EJPLAYA]

If Tony wanted to leave to play a bigger role elsewhere, that's good for him.  The C's can't offer a huge role for him, but we will miss him.  He is an impact defender- he makes things happen not just with his fundamental defense, but with his special energy that not many players have.  Tony and Daniels aren't even in the same ballpark as far as defense goes.  Tony goes all out and tries to make plays, while Daniels looks like he's sleepwalking out there.  I just didn't see comparable effort between the two.

And if Doc has to play Ray and Paul extra minutes for defensive purposes, that is a very bad thing.  Someone earlier pointed out that yes, Paul and Ray can play good defense- but at their age they have nothing left for the offensive end if they are guarding a good player.  We have seen it time and time again.  And some wonder why Ray couldn't hit a shot in the finals... it's obvious to me.  He had no legs.  I was hoping this would be the year that Ray can finally play some age-appropriate minutes.  It looks that once again that won't happen.

This is it, what it all comes down to heavier minutes for our starters we will be even more gassed this year than last year if we even make the finals. smh

We have the deepest bench we have ever had, or at least for 25+ years. Not sure why losing one maddening turnover prone guy who at times played solid defense has put us in the back of the bus. Do we really think that this bench below is better than this years?

last yr                            this yr

BBD                              - BBD
TA                                 - Delonte
Finley                            - Wafer
Wallace                       - Jermaine O'neal
Williams                     - Shaq
Scalabrine                   - Harangody
Robinson                     - Robinson
Daniels                        - Daniels
                                       - Bradley

[housecall]

In the 2007-08 season we manage to win a championship without Tony Allen's lockdown defense.He was on the bench but still recovering from injury.He wasn't a factor in the playoffs.Somehow i think we can manage to makeup for his lost.Where he gave you defense off the bench he lacked much offensive punch.If the replacements)are capable of giving more on the offensive end than Tony gave,it should offset it on the defensive end and more.Im sure the player will not be without any defensive skills.   

We won a title without Tony's defense, and we can do it again.  However, 2007-2008 was a long time ago.  Ray and Paul were a lot younger then.  This past year when they had to really compete on defense, their offense suffered. 
Losing Tony isn't the end of the world, but it's definitely going to be a factor.

Whether its the 2007-08 or 2010-11 season Paul&Ray will not play 48mins.a game.I don't think their game has dropped off to the point they can't keep their man in front of them.My point was with the 08 season we had adequate enough backup players to hold down the defense until they returned to the game.Filling those roles is what we are waiting to see come this fall.Even though TA played well in the playoffs in his role he hasn't proven that he can be that same level stopper from a starters role with starter type minutes.Also,the type of defense he will be in in Memphis will not be as team oriented as it is in Boston.Having dependable people on the court who play defense just as good if not better is a lot different from playing with players who are younger that play with more of a offensive mindset.How long will he stay motivated to play defense at a top level if he starts to feel he's basically on an island alone?

[Roy H.]

If Tony wanted to leave to play a bigger role elsewhere, that's good for him.  The C's can't offer a huge role for him, but we will miss him.  He is an impact defender- he makes things happen not just with his fundamental defense, but with his special energy that not many players have.  Tony and Daniels aren't even in the same ballpark as far as defense goes.  Tony goes all out and tries to make plays, while Daniels looks like he's sleepwalking out there.  I just didn't see comparable effort between the two.

And if Doc has to play Ray and Paul extra minutes for defensive purposes, that is a very bad thing.  Someone earlier pointed out that yes, Paul and Ray can play good defense- but at their age they have nothing left for the offensive end if they are guarding a good player.  We have seen it time and time again.  And some wonder why Ray couldn't hit a shot in the finals... it's obvious to me.  He had no legs.  I was hoping this would be the year that Ray can finally play some age-appropriate minutes.  It looks that once again that won't happen.

This is it, what it all comes down to heavier minutes for our starters we will be even more gassed this year than last year if we even make the finals. smh

We have Delonte, Wafer, and hopefully a healthier Daniels to cover the wing right now.  If Doc wants to limit Ray's minutes, he easily can.

[Fafnir]

Tony turns it over much more often when he has the ball than Ray or Pierce.

17 TOV% compared to 13 and 10 for Paul/Ray.

  This is true, but about 60% of Ray's possessions and about 50% of Paul's possessions end in jumpshots compared to about 22% for Tony. If Ray (23%) and Paul (33%) took the ball to the hoop as frequently as Tony (67%) it's likely they'd have a higher turnover rate than he does.

You don't know that, they also do more ball handling than Tony.

Tony turns it over so much precisely because he drives so much, even when its straight into the defense.

[Change]

If our defense suffers this season it will be because of losing Tom Thibadeau or an injury to Rondo/KG, not from missing Tony Allen's contributions.

I have to disagree. The defensive concept won't change without Tom. Rondo will still be pressing full court from time to time. KG will still play his great PnR D. They'll still rotate and help off. The main objective of the Defense won't change. However, Celtics will miss their best one-on-one defender. What they will miss is Tony's tenacious aggressive Defense out in the perimeter. His instincts for the ball, and his playmaking. And Rondo will miss his running partner.

[BballTim]

Tony turns it over much more often when he has the ball than Ray or Pierce.

17 TOV% compared to 13 and 10 for Paul/Ray.

  This is true, but about 60% of Ray's possessions and about 50% of Paul's possessions end in jumpshots compared to about 22% for Tony. If Ray (23%) and Paul (33%) took the ball to the hoop as frequently as Tony (67%) it's likely they'd have a higher turnover rate than he does.

You don't know that, they also do more ball handling than Tony.

  No, I don't "know" that, but you'd have a hard time convincing me that players are just as likely to turn the ball over attempting a jump shot as they are driving to the hoop. They don't handle the ball a ton more than TA, and aren't low risk players when they do. Every time one of them does a drive and kick out it's an adventure.

Tony turns it over so much precisely because he drives so much, even when its straight into the defense.

  Which is pretty much exactly what I said.

[Fafnir]

Tony turns it over so much precisely because he drives so much, even when its straight into the defense.

  Which is pretty much exactly what I said.

Perhaps I should restate my thoughts.

Both Ray Allen and Paul Pierce are better penetrators off the dribble than Tony Allen.

Tony makes many more dumb mistakes than Ray or Paul. Claiming they'd both make similar amounts of mistakes if they put there head down and dribbled without looking like Tony isn't something I think is accurate.