Celtics will regret not re-signing Tony

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Tony turns it over much more often when he has the ball than Ray or Pierce.

17 TOV% compared to 13 and 10 for Paul/Ray.

  This is true, but about 60% of Ray's possessions and about 50% of Paul's possessions end in jumpshots compared to about 22% for Tony. If Ray (23%) and Paul (33%) took the ball to the hoop as frequently as Tony (67%) it's likely they'd have a higher turnover rate than he does.

First, let's all check back in with reality and recognize that it is an insult to both Ray and Paul to be comparing Tony Allen to them.

Next, let's wonder why TA didn't shoot many jump shots:  He sucks at it, probably worst on the team.

Further, let's consider whether that driving to the hoop helped anywhere near as much as those jumpers from Ray and Paul.  Here's the TS% from last season:  Ray=.601, Paul=.613, and TA=.510.  That's not close.  Even when he didn't turn it over, getting close to the hoop should result in some efficient scoring, but not for Tony.

Even Quisy was slightly higher with TS%=.526, and much better with the ball, TOV%=13.3, which is great given how much he handled the ball in the early part of the season.

In short, as great as TA is at some things, he is compensatingly bad at others, making it a total wash.  Does anyone think that his signing has made Memphis a better basketball team?  Didn't think so...

[Jon]

I still don't get this.  Sure, there is a chance that Tony could shine in Memphis and Daniels, Wafer, and West could all self-destruct (though there's a pretty good chance that at least 2 of the 3 will be OK).  But there's also just as good of a chance that Tony is a bust in Memphis (hurt or reverting to bad Tony) and/or that our current wings make us forget all about him. 

He had a good couple of months last year; however, even if he was still here, with the current talent we have at the wing on the bench, I don't think that there would've been any guarantee that he actually would be in the playoff rotation next spring. 

[FatjohnReturns]

I still don't get this.  Sure, there is a chance that Tony could shine in Memphis and Daniels, Wafer, and West could all self-destruct (though there's a pretty good chance that at least 2 of the 3 will be OK).  But there's also just as good of a chance that Tony is a bust in Memphis (hurt or reverting to bad Tony) and/or that our current wings make us forget all about him. 

He had a good couple of months last year; however, even if he was still here, with the current talent we have at the wing on the bench, I don't think that there would've been any guarantee that he actually would be in the playoff rotation next spring. 

Our current wings are not going to make us forget about Tony. We do agree that he had a good couple months. Luckily it was in the playoffs. If playing time is earned Tony should have been playing about 20-24 mpg backing up Paul at SF starting this year. I think the fact that Danny and Doc couldnt guarantee that for him made him decide to walk. Then the C's took the only avaible choice and resigned MD.

Pierce played hurt during the regular season last year. With a aging Pierce the backup SF is going to get alot of run this year.
Marquis will get exposed. Nate,West,Daniels,Baby,Shaq or Jermaine.
Thats your second unit. I would have preferred Nate,West,TA,Baby,Shaq or Jermaine.

[GreenFaith1819]

I still don't get this.  Sure, there is a chance that Tony could shine in Memphis and Daniels, Wafer, and West could all self-destruct (though there's a pretty good chance that at least 2 of the 3 will be OK).  But there's also just as good of a chance that Tony is a bust in Memphis (hurt or reverting to bad Tony) and/or that our current wings make us forget all about him. 

He had a good couple of months last year; however, even if he was still here, with the current talent we have at the wing on the bench, I don't think that there would've been any guarantee that he actually would be in the playoff rotation next spring. 

Our current wings are not going to make us forget about Tony. We do agree that he had a good couple months. Luckily it was in the playoffs. If playing time is earned Tony should have been playing about 20-24 mpg backing up Paul at SF starting this year. I think the fact that Danny and Doc couldnt guarantee that for him made him decide to walk. Then the C's took the only avaible choice and resigned MD.

Pierce played hurt during the regular season last year. With a aging Pierce the backup SF is going to get alot of run this year.
Marquis will get exposed. Nate,West,Daniels,Baby,Shaq or Jermaine.
Thats your second unit. I would have preferred Nate,West,TA,Baby,Shaq or Jermaine.

But FJR - don't you think that DWest and Daniels will compensate for TA's loss?

And they will bring more to the table offensively than TA.

Yes - Defense is extremely important. But I think at the end of the day what Danny has given us is a lot more flexible than anything Boston has had over the last few years.

If Doc Rivers cannot win Banner 18 with this group here, then no one can.

We'll be fine without TA, and I wish him the best in MEM as he tries to crack the Mayo/Gay lineup. He'lll get some run, but not much more than what he had in Boston.

[BballTim]

Tony turns it over so much precisely because he drives so much, even when its straight into the defense.

  Which is pretty much exactly what I said.

Perhaps I should restate my thoughts.

Both Ray Allen and Paul Pierce are better penetrators off the dribble than Tony Allen.

Tony makes many more dumb mistakes than Ray or Paul. Claiming they'd both make similar amounts of mistakes if they put there head down and dribbled without looking like Tony isn't something I think is accurate.

  I don't think either of your statements are necessarily true. Tony has the same inside fg% as Ray and a higher one than Paul. And if you're calling turnover dumb mistakes, Tony makes 7 more in 100 possessions than Ray and 4 more than Paul even though 2-3 times as many of those possessions are penetrations. I don't know that Paul could go to the hole twice as often or Ray 3 times as often without increasing their turnover totals.

[j804]

Tony turns it over much more often when he has the ball than Ray or Pierce.

17 TOV% compared to 13 and 10 for Paul/Ray.

  This is true, but about 60% of Ray's possessions and about 50% of Paul's possessions end in jumpshots compared to about 22% for Tony. If Ray (23%) and Paul (33%) took the ball to the hoop as frequently as Tony (67%) it's likely they'd have a higher turnover rate than he does.

First, let's all check back in with reality and recognize that it is an insult to both Ray and Paul to be comparing Tony Allen to them.

Next, let's wonder why TA didn't shoot many jump shots:  He sucks at it, probably worst on the team.

Further, let's consider whether that driving to the hoop helped anywhere near as much as those jumpers from Ray and Paul.  Here's the TS% from last season:  Ray=.601, Paul=.613, and TA=.510.  That's not close.  Even when he didn't turn it over, getting close to the hoop should result in some efficient scoring, but not for Tony.

Even Quisy was slightly higher with TS%=.526, and much better with the ball, TOV%=13.3, which is great given how much he handled the ball in the early part of the season.

In short, as great as TA is at some things, he is compensatingly bad at others, making it a total wash.  Does anyone think that his signing has made Memphis a better basketball team?  Didn't think so...

If they were a title contending team, yes.

[BballTim]

Tony turns it over much more often when he has the ball than Ray or Pierce.

17 TOV% compared to 13 and 10 for Paul/Ray.

  This is true, but about 60% of Ray's possessions and about 50% of Paul's possessions end in jumpshots compared to about 22% for Tony. If Ray (23%) and Paul (33%) took the ball to the hoop as frequently as Tony (67%) it's likely they'd have a higher turnover rate than he does.

First, let's all check back in with reality and recognize that it is an insult to both Ray and Paul to be comparing Tony Allen to them.

  No, let's check back into reality and recognize that nobody's comparing Ray or Paul to Tony as players, just in terms of how often they turn the ball over.

Next, let's wonder why TA didn't shoot many jump shots:  He sucks at it, probably worst on the team.

  Agreed.

Further, let's consider whether that driving to the hoop helped anywhere near as much as those jumpers from Ray and Paul.  Here's the TS% from last season:  Ray=.601, Paul=.613, and TA=.510.  That's not close.  Even when he didn't turn it over, getting close to the hoop should result in some efficient scoring, but not for Tony.

  Haha. Are we pretending that those numbers aren't affected by three pointers? And Tony was .540, by the way.

[More Banners]

At the end of the day - and there is just no getting around this - the more time TA gets on the court, or the bigger the role he assumes, the more his deficiencies on the offenive end are exposed, and the less he helps.  We can check the numbers, compare percentages and averages all day, but we've watched the games and know this to be true. 

As Red used to say, there are only two parts to the game: offense and defense, and players have to play both.  He's a 15 minute per game player, at most, on a decent team.  It just isn't that hard to replace one-dimensional, 15 minute per game players.  In fact, I think at least 2 of the 3 guys who will compete for his minutes could play a larger role and more minutes than TA is capable of playing, and will help us while doing it.

[Jevi]

He was insulted the team went after another free agent before they talked to him and his agent. He wasn't getting a 3rd year here so Laker Memphis GM went with a 3rd year to pry him away from the C's.

We'll regret not having his speed, defense, and energy. He was great playing with Rondo, one of the few finishers on fast breaks. I trusted him, I will miss him.

Saying all that, the only way we regret this move, is if Avery Bradley doesn't show that TA speed & defense. Avery was injured before the draft and Summer League, so that's like Tony. What we've heard from Doc, the rookie seems to be everything we'll miss from Tony, minus the experience of course. So expect Avery too, to bite on a Billups fake til he learns on the job. The only other regret we'd have is if say he was traded to a contender(sorry Memphis) to be maybe a Rondo defender, just a wild thought.

I'm sure C's won't miss paying the extra security he needed at the Bull's United Center, or the rehabbing efforts to get him on the court.

Overshadowed, he had to be on the court for that to happen, then his game would've maybe progressed enough to get out from under the shadow of the big 3, ask Rondo.

[BballTim]

At the end of the day - and there is just no getting around this - the more time TA gets on the court, or the bigger the role he assumes, the more his deficiencies on the offenive end are exposed, and the less he helps.  We can check the numbers, compare percentages and averages all day, but we've watched the games and know this to be true. 

As Red used to say, there are only two parts to the game: offense and defense, and players have to play both.  He's a 15 minute per game player, at most, on a decent team.  It just isn't that hard to replace one-dimensional, 15 minute per game players.  In fact, I think at least 2 of the 3 guys who will compete for his minutes could play a larger role and more minutes than TA is capable of playing, and will help us while doing it.

  It's also true that, at the end of the day, none of the players were offered contracts as long or for as much money as TA, even by the Celts. And saying that he's "a 15 minute per game player, at most, on a decent team" is nonsensical when he was playing 16-17 minutes on a team that went to the finals last year.

[GreenFaith1819]

To add: Yes, TA would've been our best single option to slow down DWade, Kobe and even Lebron to some degree.

But the plus, now, is that in a future matchup with MIA or LA no one can cheat off of Boston ever again, even with Marquis. If they leave DWest or Wafer alone, they can torch LA or MIA from mid-range or deep.

I watched the Finals, when both TA and Rondo were on the floor. I watched Kobe and DFish cheat off of both of those two enough it made me sick. They could simply overload our Bigs.

Kobe? Well, our TEAM defense will slow him down - it wasn't just TA in our past matchups with LA, even though TA certainly helped against him. Ray did a fair job on him. Kobe just turned 32 (same as Pierce), so he isn't geting any better.

Don't get me wrong - I pulled for TA to get more consistent and stay healthy, and he did. I was really happy with the way he subbed for Pierce on Christmas day, and the rest of the season as he played more consistently.

He's gone now, in what he sees as a better opportunity to shine. I wish him well. But Boston has indeed became better even with the bad news of him leaving, IMO.

[BballTim]

To add: Yes, TA would've been our best single option to slow down DWade, Kobe and even Lebron to some degree.

But the plus, now, is that in a future matchup with MIA or LA no one can cheat off of Boston ever again, even with Marquis. If they leave DWest or Wafer alone, they can torch LA or MIA from mid-range or deep.

I watched the Finals, when both TA and Rondo were on the floor. I watched Kobe and DFish cheat off of both of those two enough it made me sick. They could simply overload our Bigs.

Kobe? Well, our TEAM defense will slow him down - it wasn't just TA in our past matchups with LA, even though TA certainly helped against him. Ray did a fair job on him. Kobe just turned 32 (same as Pierce), so he isn't geting any better.

Don't get me wrong - I pulled for TA to get more consistent and stay healthy, and he did. I was really happy with the way he subbed for Pierce on Christmas day, and the rest of the season as he played more consistently.

He's gone now, in what he sees as a better opportunity to shine. I wish him well. But Boston has indeed became better even with the bad news of him leaving, IMO.

  People aren't going to cheat off of Daniels or West? That's pretty hopeful. And I thought our TEAM defense did a lot better on Wade and Kobe with Tony on them than Ray.

[wdleehi]

It will not make a difference.



Celtics have lost the last two seasons in the playoffs when one of their starting big men go down.  It leads to a major drop in paint defense that dooms this team.


This year, more then any other, they have insulated themselves from such an injury.



I like West more then TA.  And I think Daniels was fine last year before being injured.  His biggest problem at the time, having to be the PG off the bench instead of a swing.   This year, he is option 3 or 4 for that role off the bench.  (Nate, West and possible Bradley)

[GreenFaith1819]

BBall - no, they won't cheat off of DWest or Marquis. They can't, now.

I'm as much an advocate of Defense as the next man, but the threat of offense makes opponents honest. Marquis is a slightly better scorer than TA, and DWest may be our most well-rounded bench player, like others have stated.

And slightly off topic? What if this Gafney fellow makes our team? That's our 6'8" long SF that we've been wishing for. He could turn out to be another defender for us.

Back to TA - we'll miss you, but I am really looking forward to our new look next season.

In a perfect world, TA would've been healthy enough to develop a J over his 6 seasons, and he would've not minded continuing in his role for us next season. I was as stunned as the next man with his choice, but he's gone now.

In my past arguments for TA, I could never win against those posters that would call TA out for his lack of a J, no matter how much I tried.

[BballTim]

BBall - no, they won't cheat off of DWest or Marquis. They can't, now.

  Of course they can, and they will. Teams cheat off of far better players than Delonte to stop elite offensive threats. Look at Cleveland and Orlando, who were near the top of the league in three point shooting. Do you think that teams never cheated towards LeBron or Dwight? They might cheat a little less. Or then again they might not.

In my past arguments for TA, I could never win against those posters that would call TA out for his lack of a J, no matter how much I tried.

  Maybe you just didn't argue the point well.