Celtics will regret not re-signing Tony

[KobeGotRondoD]

Wafer will be our TA this year.

Solid defender and he's never really been on a defensive minded team. That being said, Doc and KG and company can mold this guy into that role. He's bigger and longer than TA and can provide the occasional burst of offense. I saw TA playing some 3 last year so why not Wafer who's a good 3 inches taller than him

[Change]

Eh...  Our starters played almost as many minutes in the playoffs in 2010 as they did in 2009.  We all saw how that worked out (i.e., six minutes away from a title, missing a starter.)

In the playoffs, Rondo, Pierce, and Ray will all be playing 38 - 40 minutes.  They've each shown they can handle it.  Not having an elite defensive player to back them up for the extra 3 - 4 minutes that Lebron and Wade are in the game isn't going to doom us, especially when we should have a much more consistent offense this year.

I mean, in those 3 or 4 minutes, how many extra points do people expect Lebron or Wade to score on Daniels, versus what they would have scored on Tony? 

3 or 4 minutes matter in the NBA. Sometimes second are the difference between winning and losing. As you have stated earlier Celtics were 6 minutes away from championship. If Lebron or Wade goes MAD against Celtics Bench, Would it matter then?

[Roy H.]

Eh...  Our starters played almost as many minutes in the playoffs in 2010 as they did in 2009.  We all saw how that worked out (i.e., six minutes away from a title, missing a starter.)

In the playoffs, Rondo, Pierce, and Ray will all be playing 38 - 40 minutes.  They've each shown they can handle it.  Not having an elite defensive player to back them up for the extra 3 - 4 minutes that Lebron and Wade are in the game isn't going to doom us, especially when we should have a much more consistent offense this year.

I mean, in those 3 or 4 minutes, how many extra points do people expect Lebron or Wade to score on Daniels, versus what they would have scored on Tony?  

3 or 4 minutes matter in the NBA. Sometimes second are the difference between winning and losing. As you have stated earlier Celtics were 6 minutes away from championship. If Lebron or Wade goes MAD against Celtics Bench, Would it matter then?

How many extra points do you think Tony is worth (points saved + points created), compared to Daniels?  How many extra points is he worth in those 3-4 minutes? 

And really, the analysis should be how many points are Tony, 2009 Daniels, and Michael Finley worth compared to 2010 Daniels, Von Wafer, and Delonte West.  I'd be hard-pressed to take the first group.

[jdub1660]

I would rather see Tony on this team than Marquis

Both have horrible inconsistent jumpers

Both are undersized for SF position

Both can play combo guard and run the point.

Both have been injury prone.

Tony plays MUCH better D.

Tony can finish at the rim MUCH better.

So are we missing out, or will Quis turn it around and be the player that we needed when he signed last year?

[Celtics17]

To say that Tony's D can be replaced or that it wasnt really even that important to begin with is really not seeing the big picture. Sure, he didnt play a ton of minutes but that isn't his role anyway. He's a bench player and the fact that he could come in and slow down some of the best scorers in the league is something we will miss. Can we make up for it? I dont know but one thing is for sure, he will be missed. If we were getting beaten in the playoffs by centers or power forwards then I might not say that as much but Miami and L.A. look to be our biggest competition and he would help in both series.

[Change]

Eh...  Our starters played almost as many minutes in the playoffs in 2010 as they did in 2009.  We all saw how that worked out (i.e., six minutes away from a title, missing a starter.)

In the playoffs, Rondo, Pierce, and Ray will all be playing 38 - 40 minutes.  They've each shown they can handle it.  Not having an elite defensive player to back them up for the extra 3 - 4 minutes that Lebron and Wade are in the game isn't going to doom us, especially when we should have a much more consistent offense this year.

I mean, in those 3 or 4 minutes, how many extra points do people expect Lebron or Wade to score on Daniels, versus what they would have scored on Tony?  

3 or 4 minutes matter in the NBA. Sometimes second are the difference between winning and losing. As you have stated earlier Celtics were 6 minutes away from championship. If Lebron or Wade goes MAD against Celtics Bench, Would it matter then?

How many extra points do you think Tony is worth (points saved + points created), compared to Daniels?

And really, the analysis should be how many points are Tony, 2009 Daniels, and Michael Finley worth compared to 2010 Daniels, Von Wafer, and Delonte West.  I'd be hard-pressed to take the first group.

I don't know. Tony isn't much of a scorer, at least what he has shown here. With a different offense (Memphis) and more freedom, maybe he'll be able to generate more points. He is however a special player defensively A game changer.

[Roy H.]

Eh...  Our starters played almost as many minutes in the playoffs in 2010 as they did in 2009.  We all saw how that worked out (i.e., six minutes away from a title, missing a starter.)

In the playoffs, Rondo, Pierce, and Ray will all be playing 38 - 40 minutes.  They've each shown they can handle it.  Not having an elite defensive player to back them up for the extra 3 - 4 minutes that Lebron and Wade are in the game isn't going to doom us, especially when we should have a much more consistent offense this year.

I mean, in those 3 or 4 minutes, how many extra points do people expect Lebron or Wade to score on Daniels, versus what they would have scored on Tony?  

3 or 4 minutes matter in the NBA. Sometimes second are the difference between winning and losing. As you have stated earlier Celtics were 6 minutes away from championship. If Lebron or Wade goes MAD against Celtics Bench, Would it matter then?

How many extra points do you think Tony is worth (points saved + points created), compared to Daniels?

And really, the analysis should be how many points are Tony, 2009 Daniels, and Michael Finley worth compared to 2010 Daniels, Von Wafer, and Delonte West.  I'd be hard-pressed to take the first group.

I don't know. Tony isn't much of a scorer, at least what he has shown here. With a different offense (Memphis) and more freedom, maybe he'll be able to generate more points. He is however a special player defensively A game changer.

I'm just trying to get a rough idea.  What's going to be the net differential, replacing Tony?  If his replacements give up an extra two points, but score an extra 3, obviously that's a net win for us.

My conjecture is that if you replace Tony's SF minutes with Marquis, and his SG minutes with Delonte, the team's bench will be better than last season.

[GreenFaith1819]

I don't think we'll regret not signing TA. I thought his whole deal was that he wanted a bigger role with us? One that we couldn't provide for him?

It's been tossed around on here for a while about TA starting and Ray coming off the bench, etc...not sure if that would've been good for the team.

I thought the general consensus was that TA could've and would've been accomodated, if he had a better jumper. He was certainly a great finisher at the rim, a good freethrow shooter and all, but his J was spotty.

I thought at times this was taken advantage of in the LA series, especially with both Rondo and TA on the floor at the same time. We just lost too much offense. - very little threat of jumpers from those two.

And IMO he never improved on his J. Some of that could be attributed to him just being injured.

He may very well become a better player in MEM, and I wish him the best there. But I just get the impression that he may have been leaning on leaving regardless of what Danny offered him.

He believed that he needed his own space to shine, and I can respect that.

Yes - I'll definitely miss the defense and spark he provided. But I think Delonte will fill that role to a degree, plus more.

I don't believe we'll regret not re-signing TA.

[Celtics17]

It seems to me that whoever said that the game may come down to just a few small minutes was right. I dont think anyone here thinks that Tony's production on offense can't be replace and thus it's a moot point. His D though on certain players was at times excellent. Slowing an offensive player at certain times, if only for a play or two, can make all the difference. We dont have to look any further then our own Bill Russell to see that. If a player is allowed to get into a groove against an inferior defensive player, ie. Daniels, it may look like only a few extra points but it can translate into a whole lot more when and if that player remains hot. That can easily decide a ball game.

[EJPLAYA]

Eh...  Our starters played almost as many minutes in the playoffs in 2010 as they did in 2009.  We all saw how that worked out (i.e., six minutes away from a title, missing a starter.)

In the playoffs, Rondo, Pierce, and Ray will all be playing 38 - 40 minutes.  They've each shown they can handle it.  Not having an elite defensive player to back them up for the extra 3 - 4 minutes that Lebron and Wade are in the game isn't going to doom us, especially when we should have a much more consistent offense this year.

I mean, in those 3 or 4 minutes, how many extra points do people expect Lebron or Wade to score on Daniels, versus what they would have scored on Tony?  

3 or 4 minutes matter in the NBA. Sometimes second are the difference between winning and losing. As you have stated earlier Celtics were 6 minutes away from championship. If Lebron or Wade goes MAD against Celtics Bench, Would it matter then?

How many extra points do you think Tony is worth (points saved + points created), compared to Daniels?

And really, the analysis should be how many points are Tony, 2009 Daniels, and Michael Finley worth compared to 2010 Daniels, Von Wafer, and Delonte West.  I'd be hard-pressed to take the first group.

I don't know. Tony isn't much of a scorer, at least what he has shown here. With a different offense (Memphis) and more freedom, maybe he'll be able to generate more points. He is however a special player defensively A game changer.

I'm just trying to get a rough idea.  What's going to be the net differential, replacing Tony?  If his replacements give up an extra two points, but score an extra 3, obviously that's a net win for us.

My conjecture is that if you replace Tony's SF minutes with Marquis, and his SG minutes with Delonte, the team's bench will be better than last season.

I think Roy is right on here. I was trying to point out the thought last year that if the 2nd unit doesn't have the defensive capabilities of defending like the first unit does, then we should change our thinking. Just outscore them! Yes TA is a little better defender than Marquis, Delonte, and Wafer, but he isn't as big a threat outside to score. Both Wafer and Delonte can shoot well from the outside,  and Marquis is a solid mid range scorer. That forces them to leave the Diesel alone down deep and then he can do his damage. We had no legitimate inside scoring on that second unit, very little outside shooting ability. We have improved both. Our offense on that second unit is tremendously better. Not sure that I care if we give up 2-3 more points a game out of the second squad because I am betting that we will score 6-8 more. I hadn't honestly even THOUGHT about TA for a couple months now, so that says a little.

[Change]

I think Roy is right on here. I was trying to point out the thought last year that if the 2nd unit doesn't have the defensive capabilities of defending like the first unit does, then we should change our thinking. Just outscore them! Yes TA is a little better defender than Marquis, Delonte, and Wafer, but he isn't as big a threat outside to score. Both Wafer and Delonte can shoot well from the outside,  and Marquis is a solid mid range scorer. That forces them to leave the Diesel alone down deep and then he can do his damage. We had no legitimate inside scoring on that second unit, very little outside shooting ability. We have improved both. Our offense on that second unit is tremendously better. Not sure that I care if we give up 2-3 more points a game out of the second squad because I am betting that we will score 6-8 more. I hadn't honestly even THOUGHT about TA for a couple months now, so that says a little.

Sounds nice and everything, until you get behind and need to get stops. Danny put punch of scorers together. But who will get the stops on that unit? Dwyane Wade & Lebron James will take advantage of their mismatches & balloon their lead. Celtics can deal with ShaQ and his weaknesses. But when the point of attack is also weak. The team becomes a lot more vulenrable.

[FatjohnReturns]

Eh...  Our starters played almost as many minutes in the playoffs in 2010 as they did in 2009.  We all saw how that worked out (i.e., six minutes away from a title, missing a starter.)

In the playoffs, Rondo, Pierce, and Ray will all be playing 38 - 40 minutes.  They've each shown they can handle it.  Not having an elite defensive player to back them up for the extra 3 - 4 minutes that Lebron and Wade are in the game isn't going to doom us, especially when we should have a much more consistent offense this year.

I mean, in those 3 or 4 minutes, how many extra points do people expect Lebron or Wade to score on Daniels, versus what they would have scored on Tony?  

3 or 4 minutes matter in the NBA. Sometimes second are the difference between winning and losing. As you have stated earlier Celtics were 6 minutes away from championship. If Lebron or Wade goes MAD against Celtics Bench, Would it matter then?

How many extra points do you think Tony is worth (points saved + points created), compared to Daniels?

And really, the analysis should be how many points are Tony, 2009 Daniels, and Michael Finley worth compared to 2010 Daniels, Von Wafer, and Delonte West.  I'd be hard-pressed to take the first group.

I don't know. Tony isn't much of a scorer, at least what he has shown here. With a different offense (Memphis) and more freedom, maybe he'll be able to generate more points. He is however a special player defensively A game changer.

I'm just trying to get a rough idea.  What's going to be the net differential, replacing Tony?  If his replacements give up an extra two points, but score an extra 3, obviously that's a net win for us.

My conjecture is that if you replace Tony's SF minutes with Marquis, and his SG minutes with Delonte, the team's bench will be better than last season.

but everything cant be quantified into numbers especially not net differential in basketball. If we are playing Miami in a tight game and Wade comes down and gets stuffed or stripped by TA. It fires up the team. How many times have we seen a game decided by 1 possesion late in the fourth quater? or in a 3 minute stretch?

I have to agree strongly with this statement earlier in the thread."He is however a special player defensively A game changer."  

[Roy H.]

If we are playing Miami in a tight game and Wade comes down and gets stuffed or stripped by TA. It fires up the team. How many times have we seen a game decided by 1 possesion late in the fourth quater? or in a 3 minute stretch?

If we're in a tight game and Von Wafer hits a big three, it can also be a game-changer and will fire up the crowd, wouldn't you agree?  How many times have we seen the Celtics come up short because they couldn't score timely buckets down the stretch?

[EJPLAYA]

I think Roy is right on here. I was trying to point out the thought last year that if the 2nd unit doesn't have the defensive capabilities of defending like the first unit does, then we should change our thinking. Just outscore them! Yes TA is a little better defender than Marquis, Delonte, and Wafer, but he isn't as big a threat outside to score. Both Wafer and Delonte can shoot well from the outside,  and Marquis is a solid mid range scorer. That forces them to leave the Diesel alone down deep and then he can do his damage. We had no legitimate inside scoring on that second unit, very little outside shooting ability. We have improved both. Our offense on that second unit is tremendously better. Not sure that I care if we give up 2-3 more points a game out of the second squad because I am betting that we will score 6-8 more. I hadn't honestly even THOUGHT about TA for a couple months now, so that says a little.

Sounds nice and everything, until you get behind and need to get stops. Danny put punch of scorers together. But who will get the stops on that unit? Dwyane Wade & Lebron James will take advantage of their mismatches & balloon their lead. Celtics can deal with ShaQ and his weaknesses. But when the point of attack is also weak. The team becomes a lot more vulenrable.

Good point because we typically play our second unit against good teams starting unit all the time…

What?! We put the starting 5 out there when Lebron and Wade are on the floor. Maybe we have 1 guy in there with the starters. When their second unit is on the floor giving their starters a rest then we have this lineup in. Do you really think we are going to have such a tough time defending their second squad of nobodies?! Do you really think we won't at least be able to outscore them?!

[EJPLAYA]

If we are playing Miami in a tight game and Wade comes down and gets stuffed or stripped by TA. It fires up the team. How many times have we seen a game decided by 1 possesion late in the fourth quater? or in a 3 minute stretch?

If we're in a tight game and Von Wafer hits a big three, it can also be a game-changer and will fire up the crowd, wouldn't you agree?  How many times have we seen the Celtics come up short because they couldn't score timely buckets down the stretch?

Once again, AMEN Roy. We don't have title 18 right now because of our OFFENSE, not Defense. We are so much better on the offensive side of the ball on that second unit and arguably not much worse that I don't see how this second unit will not put us in a better position to win games.