Why Is Glen Davis still on this team?

[Jevi]

Good job fan from VT, although you don't mind Baby being on this team, I understand. Like DA, you want value, you'd gladly take any of those deals to help the team. Baby Backers have no lift, offering reasons, excuses, & logic that gets blocked like their binky does & will. Some of the opinions here are informed and it appears actually come with proof...Rasheed interrupts "stats don't lie"! Also, you think I care how young a player I feel is hurting this team is? If you admit you are just happy with competing, your not only a Baby Backer, but fan of 06-07 team. If he does comes back, I will guarantee a big(championship caliber) will go down to injury and it will be up to him, again. Predict another game 7 loss, two years now backers, What? Where was he during BP Gulf spill, kidding. Seriously, when a team offers DA more than DJ Augustin...Gone Baby Gone. His backers will have to retire their BBD kneepads.

[Fan from VT]

Some more for fun:

Utah
Sheed, Davis, Gaffney, Lafayette, and Scal resigned to a 3 year, 4.2 million per year deal with only the first year guaranteed, for Kirilenko

Exceedingly unlikely, as it would leave Scal, CJ miles, and Hayward as the only SF's on the roster; this hinges on Utah needing to save money and being able to swing Okur or Davis for another SF in the same or separate deals.

Detroit
Sheed, Davis, Gaffney, Lafayette and the aforementioned Scal deal for Prince and Maxiell

Again, predicated on Detroit souring on Maxiell and just wanting to save money immediately.

Indiana
Sheed, Davis, Gaffney, Lafayette for Hansbrough, Dunleavy.

Predicated on Indiana's money problems and them not valuing Hansbrough more than Davis. Would I still do it if it was for Dunleavy and McRoberts instead of Dunleavy and Hansbrough? Tough to say. Still hard to say no; McRoberts finally had a nice season last year as a versatile athletic role player and could take Davis's spot well enough to make the Dunleavy bench wing role worth it.

Philadelphia
Perk, Sheed, Davis, Gaffney, Lafayette for Brand, Young, and a First.

We know Philly wants to dump Brand's contract. Would they give up Young and a 1st to save a boatload of cash and have Davis and Perk going forward? From Boston's perspective, it's tough to give up Perk and swallow Brand's deal. On the flip side, though Brand has slipped from his previous stature and not worth his contract, he's still starter quality. The big problem is his contract is one year longer than wanted (one year longer than KG/Allen). On the flip/flip side, they'd still have just Brand, Rondo, Pierce under contract so enough for just one big free agent; and if they had to extend Perk/Davis they'd cut into that hypothetical space anyway. In sum, I probably wouldn't be able to do this deal, though it would be tempting to get that good pick and T. Young, and in a way I'd be shocked if there's cap space in 2 years anyway (has a way of disappearing quickly if trying to field a competitive team, and I'd be shocked if Ainge kept the core together in 2011-2012 but let Davis and Perk walk and equally shocked if Davis/Perk signed one year deals. So probably Bye Capspace anyway. Now, if it was Davis, Sheed, Gaffney, Lafayette, and Scal on a semi-guaranteed deal (instead of Perk)...now that's some food for thought.

New Jersey
Davis for Courtney Lee (works b/c NJ is under the cap.

Does New Jersey want more beef in the front court? Perhaps. They're depending on Favors, who most say is a several season project. They'd still have Williams, Outlaw, Morrow, Ross, and Damion James on the wings; we know they have to play Morrow and Outlaw as their major offseason additions. Lee is an excellent defender and decent on offense; not quite as big as i'd like in a Davis trade but I think can do well against most SFs.

[MBunge]

I do hate having to debate with those who have such a bias against players that aren't wearing Celtic green. the pro-Davis people seem to take some kind of offense with the fact that some people are actually open to trading Davis, let alone some other PF's out there can fill his shoes.

as you stated, guys like Maxiell can probably come in and fill his shoes and i don't see why not either. If given the right system, those guys can do well. and if acquiring Maxiell allows us to land Prince too, then what a deal that would be! don't think it'd happen though because i don't think the Pistons will bite.



- LilRip

I don't have a problem with trading Baby.  I have a problem with the suggestion that any scrub big on a vet min deal could replace him.  Replacing Baby with Maxiell is one thing.  Replacing him with the equivalent of Mikki Moore is another.

Mike

[Bankshot]

I do hate having to debate with those who have such a bias against players that aren't wearing Celtic green. the pro-Davis people seem to take some kind of offense with the fact that some people are actually open to trading Davis, let alone some other PF's out there can fill his shoes.

as you stated, guys like Maxiell can probably come in and fill his shoes and i don't see why not either. If given the right system, those guys can do well. and if acquiring Maxiell allows us to land Prince too, then what a deal that would be! don't think it'd happen though because i don't think the Pistons will bite.



- LilRip

I don't have a problem with trading Baby.  I have a problem with the suggestion that any scrub big on a vet min deal could replace him.  Replacing Baby with Maxiell is one thing.  Replacing him with the equivalent of Mikki Moore is another.

Mike

I don't have a problem trading Baby either, so long as we're not getting someone inferior and Maxiel is inferior to Davis, so I wouldn't do that deal either.  I can't believe this is being so hotly debated.  Some serious Davis haters on this board.

[Fan from VT]

I do hate having to debate with those who have such a bias against players that aren't wearing Celtic green. the pro-Davis people seem to take some kind of offense with the fact that some people are actually open to trading Davis, let alone some other PF's out there can fill his shoes.

as you stated, guys like Maxiell can probably come in and fill his shoes and i don't see why not either. If given the right system, those guys can do well. and if acquiring Maxiell allows us to land Prince too, then what a deal that would be! don't think it'd happen though because i don't think the Pistons will bite.



- LilRip

I don't have a problem with trading Baby.  I have a problem with the suggestion that any scrub big on a vet min deal could replace him.  Replacing Baby with Maxiell is one thing.  Replacing him with the equivalent of Mikki Moore is another.

Mike

I don't have a problem trading Baby either, so long as we're not getting someone inferior and Maxiel is inferior to Davis, so I wouldn't do that deal either.  I can't believe this is being so hotly debated.  Some serious Davis haters on this board.

Yeah, this is exactly the type of non backed-up discussion ending ridicule that just baffles me.

"Davis Hating???" Really? can you articulate any argument other than that? It's "Davis Hating" to think Maxiell could fill in his 18 mpg fine without losing anything while getting another piece in the deal? I guess Jerry Buss was just "Ariza hating" when he made the controversial swap that led them to a 2nd straight title. Where is the dropoff from Davis to Maxiell, other than in your head or their respective teams' records (which, or course depends 90% on the starters and on a total of 14 other people). So where is it? Where is Davis's edge? I'm guessing you'll say "intangibles," since Maxiell is better in:
Scoring, efficiency, PER (substantially better), FG%, True Shooting%, Rebounding, Turnover rate, Fouling, and Blocks. Davis is better with steals, free throw shooting (But still has a worse TS%), and assists. Both have very similar defensive numbers in recent years, though Maxiell's were significantly better a few years ago (06-07 and 07-08) back when Billups was still there and they were a good overall team.

[LilRip]

I do hate having to debate with those who have such a bias against players that aren't wearing Celtic green. the pro-Davis people seem to take some kind of offense with the fact that some people are actually open to trading Davis, let alone some other PF's out there can fill his shoes.

as you stated, guys like Maxiell can probably come in and fill his shoes and i don't see why not either. If given the right system, those guys can do well. and if acquiring Maxiell allows us to land Prince too, then what a deal that would be! don't think it'd happen though because i don't think the Pistons will bite.



- LilRip

I don't have a problem with trading Baby.  I have a problem with the suggestion that any scrub big on a vet min deal could replace him.  Replacing Baby with Maxiell is one thing.  Replacing him with the equivalent of Mikki Moore is another.

Mike

I don't have a problem trading Baby either, so long as we're not getting someone inferior and Maxiel is inferior to Davis, so I wouldn't do that deal either.  I can't believe this is being so hotly debated.  Some serious Davis haters on this board.

Yeah, this is exactly the type of non backed-up discussion ending ridicule that just baffles me.

"Davis Hating???" Really? can you articulate any argument other than that? It's "Davis Hating" to think Maxiell could fill in his 18 mpg fine without losing anything while getting another piece in the deal? I guess Jerry Buss was just "Ariza hating" when he made the controversial swap that led them to a 2nd straight title. Where is the dropoff from Davis to Maxiell, other than in your head or their respective teams' records (which, or course depends 90% on the starters and on a total of 14 other people). So where is it? Where is Davis's edge? I'm guessing you'll say "intangibles," since Maxiell is better in:
Scoring, efficiency, PER (substantially better), FG%, True Shooting%, Rebounding, Turnover rate, Fouling, and Blocks. Davis is better with steals, free throw shooting (But still has a worse TS%), and assists. Both have very similar defensive numbers in recent years, though Maxiell's were significantly better a few years ago (06-07 and 07-08) back when Billups was still there and they were a good overall team.

to add to this, i read up a bit and it turns out, he can shoot a jumper too! except he'd gladly choose to attack the rim and dunk if there's an opportunity to. yes he's undersized (like BBD) but having a 7'3'' wingspan helps. sounds like a capable role player to me.

and yeah, coincidentially, his "best year" was when he was in that competitive Pistons squad. as i said before, role players tend to look better on good teams.



- LilRip

[MBunge]

I do hate having to debate with those who have such a bias against players that aren't wearing Celtic green. the pro-Davis people seem to take some kind of offense with the fact that some people are actually open to trading Davis, let alone some other PF's out there can fill his shoes.

as you stated, guys like Maxiell can probably come in and fill his shoes and i don't see why not either. If given the right system, those guys can do well. and if acquiring Maxiell allows us to land Prince too, then what a deal that would be! don't think it'd happen though because i don't think the Pistons will bite.



- LilRip

I don't have a problem with trading Baby.  I have a problem with the suggestion that any scrub big on a vet min deal could replace him.  Replacing Baby with Maxiell is one thing.  Replacing him with the equivalent of Mikki Moore is another.

Mike

I don't have a problem trading Baby either, so long as we're not getting someone inferior and Maxiel is inferior to Davis, so I wouldn't do that deal either.  I can't believe this is being so hotly debated.  Some serious Davis haters on this board.

Yeah, this is exactly the type of non backed-up discussion ending ridicule that just baffles me.

"Davis Hating???" Really? can you articulate any argument other than that? It's "Davis Hating" to think Maxiell could fill in his 18 mpg fine without losing anything while getting another piece in the deal? I guess Jerry Buss was just "Ariza hating" when he made the controversial swap that led them to a 2nd straight title. Where is the dropoff from Davis to Maxiell, other than in your head or their respective teams' records (which, or course depends 90% on the starters and on a total of 14 other people). So where is it? Where is Davis's edge? I'm guessing you'll say "intangibles," since Maxiell is better in:
Scoring, efficiency, PER (substantially better), FG%, True Shooting%, Rebounding, Turnover rate, Fouling, and Blocks. Davis is better with steals, free throw shooting (But still has a worse TS%), and assists. Both have very similar defensive numbers in recent years, though Maxiell's were significantly better a few years ago (06-07 and 07-08) back when Billups was still there and they were a good overall team.

Maxiell regular season stats (played 79 games, started 29)
20.4 mpg, 6.8 pts, 51%, 5.3 boards, .5 blocks, .5 steals, .5 assists

Baby playoff stats (24 games)
20.1 mpg, 6.7 pts, 47%, 4.5 boards, .4 blocks, .8 steals, .4 assists

Mike

[nickagneta]

I do hate having to debate with those who have such a bias against players that aren't wearing Celtic green. the pro-Davis people seem to take some kind of offense with the fact that some people are actually open to trading Davis, let alone some other PF's out there can fill his shoes.

as you stated, guys like Maxiell can probably come in and fill his shoes and i don't see why not either. If given the right system, those guys can do well. and if acquiring Maxiell allows us to land Prince too, then what a deal that would be! don't think it'd happen though because i don't think the Pistons will bite.



- LilRip

I don't have a problem with trading Baby.  I have a problem with the suggestion that any scrub big on a vet min deal could replace him.  Replacing Baby with Maxiell is one thing.  Replacing him with the equivalent of Mikki Moore is another.

Mike

I don't have a problem trading Baby either, so long as we're not getting someone inferior and Maxiel is inferior to Davis, so I wouldn't do that deal either.  I can't believe this is being so hotly debated.  Some serious Davis haters on this board.

Yeah, this is exactly the type of non backed-up discussion ending ridicule that just baffles me.

"Davis Hating???" Really? can you articulate any argument other than that? It's "Davis Hating" to think Maxiell could fill in his 18 mpg fine without losing anything while getting another piece in the deal? I guess Jerry Buss was just "Ariza hating" when he made the controversial swap that led them to a 2nd straight title. Where is the dropoff from Davis to Maxiell, other than in your head or their respective teams' records (which, or course depends 90% on the starters and on a total of 14 other people). So where is it? Where is Davis's edge? I'm guessing you'll say "intangibles," since Maxiell is better in:
Scoring, efficiency, PER (substantially better), FG%, True Shooting%, Rebounding, Turnover rate, Fouling, and Blocks. Davis is better with steals, free throw shooting (But still has a worse TS%), and assists. Both have very similar defensive numbers in recent years, though Maxiell's were significantly better a few years ago (06-07 and 07-08) back when Billups was still there and they were a good overall team.

Back up.

You are comparing swapping Ariza for Artest as the equivalent of swapping Davis for Maxiell? Maxiell is about the equal overall of Davis, though probably worse due to Baby's higher overall BBIQ, better overall defense and better free throw shooting and better mid range game. Ariza had a good playoffs and was a good rotational bench player versus Artest who was a former All-Star, Defensive Player of the Year, 2-time 1st team All-Defense player and 2-time 20+ PPG scorer.

If you can swap Ariza for Artest, you do it every single day of the week and twice on Sunday. It is not that cut and dry decision between baby and Maxiell, But if you could trade Sheed's retiring contract and Baby for Prince and Maxiell, you do it. Prince's value at the backup 3 is way to valuable to not pull the trigger on that trade.

[nickagneta]

VS. Opponents and On/Off

'09-'10: Davis: 13.1; Opp.: 18.5 On/Off: -10.4
'08-'09: Davis: 12.2; Opp.: 18.2 On/Off: -7.9
'07-'08: Davis: 12.8; Opp.: 15.8 On/Off: -6.4

PER and Per Minute:

'09-'10:
11.59 (61 out of 70 for qualified PF's; 50 out of 60 if counted as a C)
P/40: 14.6
R/40: 8.8
A/40: 1.5
FG%: .437
TS%: .500
Min: 17.3

'08-'09:
10.77 (57 out of 64 for qualified PF's; 55 out of 67 if counted as a C)
P/40: 13.0
R/40: 7.4
A/40: 1.7
FG%: .442
TS%: .502
Min: 21.5

'07-'08:
11.40 (51 out of 63 for qualified PF's; 42 out of 58 if counted as a C)
P/40: 13.3
R/40: 8.9
A/40: 1.2
FG%: .484
TS%: .545
Min: 13.6

Some Notes about the Numbers

-I put the On/Off there for reference, but I acknowledge that I personally question how valid they are. Davis has been on the C's for all 3 seasons, and On/Off I think are more valuable when there is a lot of player movement. Additionally, the C's roster has been quite consistent, so really all the On/Off says is that the Celtics are quite significantly worse team when Davis plays instead of KG or Perk. That's to be expected; both are very good and valuable players and start for a reason.

-However, it should put a damper on the "Davis is our future starting PF when the Big Three retire" talk. You cannot get aways with starting a PF that is that much worse than a past-his-prime KG and expect to be a great, competitive team, unless the other pieces are really good (like our playoff run 2 years ago). Further evidence against the notion of Davis as a starter is that his PER and Per Minute numbers so far have been inversely related to his minutes in a very consistent fashion: his best year was his fewest minutes; his worst was his most minutes. Small sample, to be sure, but if that pattern holds, he'd be quite a bit less efficient if he played actual starters minutes.

-In addition, I want to point this out too: Whenever talk of trading Davis for another team's bench player comes up, and someone uses stats to point out why they want another team's bench player, the anti-trade crowd consistently says something like "yeah, but that players' stats are inflated because they come off the bench and play against other bench players." If this makes that much of a difference, the exact same logic should be applied to Davis, and therefore Davis's numbers are just as inflated as every other bench player in the league. After all, he too comes off the bench and plays against other backups, to the extent that such activity is actually relevant. Unfortunately, whether Davis is going against other starters or other backup PF/Cs, he has consistently been outplayed by the opposition as evidenced by his efficiency vs. the opposing efficiencies.



My Summary
I want to be clear. I like Davis. I was super-excited from the day he was drafted in the 2nd round; thought he was an instant steal. I'm very glad he's on the Celtics. He does not suck; he has filled a valuable role for the team in his career so far. However, he is decidedly a bench player and far from irreplaceable. He's so valuable to us because 90% of our salary is devoted to the starting lineup (and our starting lineup is consistently near tops in the league), so any adequate contribution off the bench stands out and is key. However, we could easily have a better bench and better bench PF. No one with his statistical background has ended up being a key starter down the road unless they are a phenomenal all-defense type shut down defender; Davis is simply a good defender. Now, I know that this will provoke the "stats are lies I trust my eyes" crowd. As it should, as stats are always simply a [valuable] tool in the whole toolbox. However, I guarantee that if you took some of those other low minute PF's that are near or higher in the PER rankings and stuck them on the Celtics for the past 3 years, there would be just as much anecdotal observational evidence for, say, Jason Maxiell or Hansbrough, or Turiaf as there is for Davis, and the blogger defense of such players would be at least as strong as it is for Davis...there's definitely Green bias that occurs. Said another way, I think that there are many on this board that would never ever even think about trading Baby for Turiaf straight up (and would in fact ridicule other posters for even considering such a deal), despite similar numerical profiles plus Turiaf's edges in size, athleticism, and scoring efficiency and quite notable edge in overall defense. However, were Turiaf the first Celtic big off the bench for the past 3 years while Davis was achieving his consistent 11.25 or so PER and .460 shooting percentage on some other team, the backlash against people wanting to give away "Celtic Turiaf" for "Other Davis" would (rightly) be even MORE ridiculed than the current backlash against "Celtic Davis" trade ideas. That's the (quite natural) Green Bias at work again.

In summary to my summary, Davis is valuable right now. Additionally, big man depth is a good thing to have, as such depth can disappear quite quickly (JO or Shaq could miss a few weeks each; Perk could have a setback; KG strains something again...depth gone). So in no way shape or form do I (or, I believe, most people who think about Davis trades) want to just "dump Davis for the sake of dumping him" (which is a common accusation from the "anti-davis-trade" population which is a simplistic way of avoiding a fun/engaging/intelligent discussion). Rather, Davis is a replaceable bench part, and there may exist a trade out there that makes the overall team better (for example, a player who has the size/skill to play SF/PF and can defend both positions well; I think with our current team structure we'd be better off replaceing the PF/C Davis with an equally talented SF/PF; even better if we can use Sheed+Davis expiring to exploit a cash-concerned team into swapping Davis with a more talented SF/PF) and it's fun to explore such options. His name comes up in trade discussions because he is not a future starter, is not a current starter, but has proven to have some value and has a very nice attractive contract; he is our best combination of expendability and return value and thus will naturally be brought up in trade ideas. I will not be at all upset if Davis is on our roster for the next season. However, options should be explored, and Davis is not so valuable that you can't think about ways to make the overall team better; not so valuable that he is an automatic "no trade."

I just want to point out that I hate per X number of minute stats, especially when they're applied to a player who's never played X number of minutes.

Mike

Your problem is the understanding of the statistic.

No, my problem is that it's a theoretical stat. 

No your problem is you don't understand it!!!

It is not a theoretical statistic. It is a magnification of a per minute statistic so that it becomes easier to decipher. Get the theoretical stuff out of your head. It is not trying to relate what a player would do if they played that many minutes. Why you keep on insisting this is mind boggling. It is a way to measure per minute production but since the per minute production numbers would be so small as to be nonsensical to most people to is magnified for interpretation.

That's it.

No one uses this stat to claim that players would put up those stats if they played those minutes. Only those that don't understand the use of the stat do that.

[Fan from VT]

I do hate having to debate with those who have such a bias against players that aren't wearing Celtic green. the pro-Davis people seem to take some kind of offense with the fact that some people are actually open to trading Davis, let alone some other PF's out there can fill his shoes.

as you stated, guys like Maxiell can probably come in and fill his shoes and i don't see why not either. If given the right system, those guys can do well. and if acquiring Maxiell allows us to land Prince too, then what a deal that would be! don't think it'd happen though because i don't think the Pistons will bite.



- LilRip

I don't have a problem with trading Baby.  I have a problem with the suggestion that any scrub big on a vet min deal could replace him.  Replacing Baby with Maxiell is one thing.  Replacing him with the equivalent of Mikki Moore is another.

Mike

I don't have a problem trading Baby either, so long as we're not getting someone inferior and Maxiel is inferior to Davis, so I wouldn't do that deal either.  I can't believe this is being so hotly debated.  Some serious Davis haters on this board.

Yeah, this is exactly the type of non backed-up discussion ending ridicule that just baffles me.

"Davis Hating???" Really? can you articulate any argument other than that? It's "Davis Hating" to think Maxiell could fill in his 18 mpg fine without losing anything while getting another piece in the deal? I guess Jerry Buss was just "Ariza hating" when he made the controversial swap that led them to a 2nd straight title. Where is the dropoff from Davis to Maxiell, other than in your head or their respective teams' records (which, or course depends 90% on the starters and on a total of 14 other people). So where is it? Where is Davis's edge? I'm guessing you'll say "intangibles," since Maxiell is better in:
Scoring, efficiency, PER (substantially better), FG%, True Shooting%, Rebounding, Turnover rate, Fouling, and Blocks. Davis is better with steals, free throw shooting (But still has a worse TS%), and assists. Both have very similar defensive numbers in recent years, though Maxiell's were significantly better a few years ago (06-07 and 07-08) back when Billups was still there and they were a good overall team.

Back up.

You are comparing swapping Ariza for Artest as the equivalent of swapping Davis for Maxiell? Maxiell is about the equal overall of Davis, though probably worse due to Baby's higher overall BBIQ, better overall defense and better free throw shooting and better mid range game. Ariza had a good playoffs and was a good rotational bench player versus Artest who was a former All-Star, Defensive Player of the Year, 2-time 1st team All-Defense player and 2-time 20+ PPG scorer.

If you can swap Ariza for Artest, you do it every single day of the week and twice on Sunday. It is not that cut and dry decision between baby and Maxiell, But if you could trade Sheed's retiring contract and Baby for Prince and Maxiell, you do it. Prince's value at the backup 3 is way to valuable to not pull the trigger on that trade.

Issue 1:
I brought up Ariza as an off-the cuff example. There were a LOT of people who thought it made the Lakers worse. Turns out it didn't. But in no way was it cut and dry. For example, Houston did not agree, as they happily made the swap. Regardless, I brought it up as an example that bench pieces (and really all pieces) are swappable. Modifiable. There is no secret sauce recipe, and wanting to tinker a roster may actually be logically thought out; it's not "Hating" just because some fans have exceptionally strong emotional attachment to certain players.

Issue 2:
I'm kind of sick of hearing about "BBall IQ" thrown around without anything tangible at all to show for it. If he has such a great "Bball IQ," or so greater than Maxiell's, it would show up SOMEWHERE. Either in FG% because he takes smarter shots. Or in rebounding. Or Team offense. Or Team defense. Or wily rebounding. Or Team rebounding. But it doesn't. Show up. Anywhere. Or, more specifically, it DOES show up, and is the reason that Davis's stats and effectiveness is even close to a better athlete like Maxiell's in the first place. You're getting things mixed up: Davis Talent PLUS Bball IQ makes him close in effectiveness to Maxiell, NOT Davis is close to Maxiell THEN Bball IQ takes him over the top. Bball IQ is HOW Davis gets his stuff done, not an extra thing to be tacked on arbitrarily. Furthermore, I have not found anything, from scouting reports to stats, to support the idea that Davis is a better defender. Both have in fact played similar roles on outstanding defensive teams. On the contrary, if anything I find that Maxiell is a slightly better defender as long as he is not asked to defend Centers; with JO, Shaq, and Perk, I hope niether Davis nor Maxiell would have to defend big centers for our team. So I'd call defense a wash.

Edit-
Nick: nice explanations/defense of appropriateness, value and limitations of per minute numbers.

[LilRip]

I do hate having to debate with those who have such a bias against players that aren't wearing Celtic green. the pro-Davis people seem to take some kind of offense with the fact that some people are actually open to trading Davis, let alone some other PF's out there can fill his shoes.

as you stated, guys like Maxiell can probably come in and fill his shoes and i don't see why not either. If given the right system, those guys can do well. and if acquiring Maxiell allows us to land Prince too, then what a deal that would be! don't think it'd happen though because i don't think the Pistons will bite.



- LilRip

I don't have a problem with trading Baby.  I have a problem with the suggestion that any scrub big on a vet min deal could replace him.  Replacing Baby with Maxiell is one thing.  Replacing him with the equivalent of Mikki Moore is another.

Mike

I don't have a problem trading Baby either, so long as we're not getting someone inferior and Maxiel is inferior to Davis, so I wouldn't do that deal either.  I can't believe this is being so hotly debated.  Some serious Davis haters on this board.

Yeah, this is exactly the type of non backed-up discussion ending ridicule that just baffles me.

"Davis Hating???" Really? can you articulate any argument other than that? It's "Davis Hating" to think Maxiell could fill in his 18 mpg fine without losing anything while getting another piece in the deal? I guess Jerry Buss was just "Ariza hating" when he made the controversial swap that led them to a 2nd straight title. Where is the dropoff from Davis to Maxiell, other than in your head or their respective teams' records (which, or course depends 90% on the starters and on a total of 14 other people). So where is it? Where is Davis's edge? I'm guessing you'll say "intangibles," since Maxiell is better in:
Scoring, efficiency, PER (substantially better), FG%, True Shooting%, Rebounding, Turnover rate, Fouling, and Blocks. Davis is better with steals, free throw shooting (But still has a worse TS%), and assists. Both have very similar defensive numbers in recent years, though Maxiell's were significantly better a few years ago (06-07 and 07-08) back when Billups was still there and they were a good overall team.

Maxiell is about the equal overall of Davis, though probably worse due to Baby's higher overall BBIQ, better overall defense and better free throw shooting and better mid range game.

While I agree with your statement about acquiring Prince, I don't think Maxiell's necessarily worse than BBD either. BBIQ is hardly measurable. Overall Defense is hard to measure too but i think it's more of a product of the team rather than the individual. regardless, both qualities are highly susceptible to bias.

I think if things were switched and you were watching Maxiell play with the Celtics these past few years, you'd be hesitant to trade for BBD too (assuming he was the one playing with the Pistons) and you'd cite those 2 reasons, among others.



- LilRip

[nickagneta]

Issue Number 1: Just because Houston was left with the lesser of the two alternatives to choose from and decided to make that their choice doesn't mean that the decision was a close decision to make. They experienced Artest and didn't want him back. That does not mean that they upgraded the position in deciding to sign Ariza. On the contrary, given what each player had done in their career, what each player did last year and what each player would be expected to produce further, Houston got the worse player.

Issue Number 2: Regarding BBIQ, it is not something that can be measured with statistics or causes stats to go up dramatically. What a higher BBIQ will do cause a player to know who best to throw an outlet pass to to start a break. It will make a player know when to take the open shot and when to seek the extra pass. It will cause a player to time a switch properly to take a charge. It will make a player play defense on a one on two break properly and how to find the right slot to run on the break. It will tell a player when to make that chest pass and when to make that bounce pass. It will cause a player to learn to use the rim as an aide from getting your shot blocked and when to pass out of a double team. BBIQ, much like ability to play one on one defense is not a measurable item and if you have two players that have near identical stats, always give the nod to the one with the higher BBIQ, that is the player you want on your team because they make everyone else better players.

[Brendan]

Issue Number 1: Just because Houston was left with the lesser of the two alternatives to choose from and decided to make that their choice doesn't mean that the decision was a close decision to make. They experienced Artest and didn't want him back. That does not mean that they upgraded the position in deciding to sign Ariza. On the contrary, given what each player had done in their career, what each player did last year and what each player would be expected to produce further, Houston got the worse player.

Issue Number 2: Regarding BBIQ, it is not something that can be measured with statistics or causes stats to go up dramatically. What a higher BBIQ will do cause a player to know who best to throw an outlet pass to to start a break. It will make a player know when to take the open shot and when to seek the extra pass. It will cause a player to time a switch properly to take a charge. It will make a player play defense on a one on two break properly and how to find the right slot to run on the break. It will tell a player when to make that chest pass and when to make that bounce pass. It will cause a player to learn to use the rim as an aide from getting your shot blocked and when to pass out of a double team. BBIQ, much like ability to play one on one defense is not a measurable item and if you have two players that have near identical stats, always give the nod to the one with the higher BBIQ, that is the player you want on your team because they make everyone else better players.

Issue Number 1: I think Houston made the right deal for years 3-5 and LAL made the right deal for year 1, year 2 is a toss up though - with Yao out for the year anyways, that made sense.

Issue Number 2: What you described would show up in the stats - doesn't mean it will be easy to make a BBIQ stat on a per player, but this is like advanced defensive metrics in baseball, given a bit more time, there will be a BBIQ stat and maybe a chemistry stat, that figure out how much better a team plays when player X is on the floor (BBIQ) or on the team (chemistry) - if such an effect exists.

[Spilling Green Dye]

I can't remember the last time a player was both so overrated and underrated by large segments of the fan base.

1 of them is true.

Could not agree more... he is overrated and not the future starting PF of this team. 

He is a role player on a very good team, and the bigman backup behind KG, Shaq, Jermaine O'Neal, and Perkins (when healthy). 

Another swing and a miss.  Those that 'overrate' always state he's a nice big reserve sometimes (depending on the night) our best big but, those that use PER like yourself miss so much of his game that you consistently underrate him.  Roy in is rush to placate both sides misses on this one. 

I never tell you that you don't watch the game, don't see basketball, or don't know what you're talking about so I'd appreciate it if you stop consistently saying that I don't watch.  I buy league pass every year and watch a lot of the games.  Since Davis' inception on the team I thought he could be a decent role player, but was frustrated with many aspects of his game.  And I honestly believe that he is overrated on this board, compared to what I SEE he provides on the court.  I see a lot of intangibles in a lot of players.  And I didn't use PER at all in any of my arguments, so I don't know why you mentioned that.

TP to Fan from VT for a great analysis.

I also somewhat agree with MBunge that extrapolating stats/minute can only be used loosely. In fact, you provided a perfect example.

It's almost comical how defensive and insulting people can be here when someone brings up the notion that trading Davis could benefit the team. 

[Spilling Green Dye]

No, my problem is that it's a theoretical stat. 

No your problem is you don't understand it!!!

It is not a theoretical statistic. It is a magnification of a per minute statistic so that it becomes easier to decipher. Get the theoretical stuff out of your head. It is not trying to relate what a player would do if they played that many minutes. Why you keep on insisting this is mind boggling. It is a way to measure per minute production but since the per minute production numbers would be so small as to be nonsensical to most people to is magnified for interpretation.

That's it.

No one uses this stat to claim that players would put up those stats if they played those minutes. Only those that don't understand the use of the stat do that.

Nick, it is a theoretical statistic simply b/c those numbers were not achieved (or at last those minutes were not played, depending on how you look at it).  It is an extrapolation that bypasses or ignores many variables and holds only some value.