Why Is Glen Davis still on this team?

[Jevi]

on the ball D here by Sheed & Tony,Baby on the other hand re-enacting dance steps from Beyonce's "Single Ladies" video

[Jevi]

There is no way to properly describe this picture, other than rather effeminate and bizarre. Yes that is Glen Davis getting his nails did at a salon in Waltham. He seems to be trading stories with the women about the latest incident on Days of Our Lives. Wait, this is the same player that should be battling for rebounds, with brutes like Chris Bosh and Amare Stoudamire right? Word on the streets says that Davis chose a nice lemon zest yellow for his nails, and a vibrant lavender for his toes. Suffice to say his day started off poorly when he missed breakfast, which he metaphorically rebounded from by eating three breakfasts in a row at the local diner.

What? Not that there's anything wrong with this!

[nickagneta]

Magnification can just as easily be called exaggeration.  Per minute "stats" take actual stats and then extrapolate from them to create theoretical numbers that players can be compared on.  Such "stats" may not be completely useless as a measure of player productivity, but there's waaaaaaaaay too many variables being taken for granted for such "stats" to be taken all that seriously.

Mike

  It's not exaggeration and it's not theoretical. It's simple math that you probably learned in 2nd or 3rd grade. If x = y, then 3x = 3y.

  If I play 8 minutes a game and get 6 rebounds a game, and Nick plays 32 minutes a game and gets 8, would you claim that Nick's clearly a better rebounder than me because he gets 8 a game and I get 6? Or would you say that I'm a better rebounder because I get .75 boards per minute when I play and Nick only gets .25 rebounds per minute?

  Saying I get 6 rebounds in a minutes a game or saying I average .75 rebounds for every minute I play or saying that my per40 rebounding rate is 30 are 3 ways to say the exact same thing. It's not an exaggeration. It's not at all theoretical because it's based solely on my actual production. It doesn't imply that, if I played 40 minutes a game, I'd get 30 rebounds a game. It say that I average 30 rebounds for every 40 minutes I'm on the court. Nothing exaggerated, nothing theoretical.

Thank you BBall. TP.

Listen, when you look at stats it is all well and good.
But it's relative to the competition, the match-ups and strength of schedule.

Red Auerbach was never a stat guy.  Neither was Bird.
Whereas, Pat Riley was and actually sometimes played his rotation based upon his own stat formula.

But what about roles?  Hustle?  defense.
Someguys rebound better than others because their teammate is boxing out.  There is alot to the game that doesn't show up on a stat board.  So stats are sometimes less meaningful.

Sometimes you are better off examining stats in the playoffs based upon the players role.

  This is all, of course, true. I don't think that stats are the be all and end all, but they are valuable. I wasn't arguing against any of your points. I was just pointing out that per36 stats are a valid tool that is useful in comparing per minute production between players, and isn't based on projections or theoretical play.

Exactly.

When he is off the court what percentage of the time he is off the court is the starting unit out there as a whole? 60%? 70%? 80%? So when he is off the court most of the time the best starting five in basketball is on the court.

When he is on the court what percentage of the time is he playing with only one starter on the court? 50%? 60%? So most of the time he is on the court he is playing with the players that are 6-12 on the Celtics depth chart.

Is it any wonder that on/off stats show the Celtics are better off when Baby is off the court than when he is on the court?

[nickagneta]

Jevi, thanks for the pics. You once again astound the rest of us with the depth of matter that you bring to this conversation.

Let's see so far from you we have learned that Davis gets his shot blocked a lot, that people who don't think Davis' game is nearly as bad as you make it out to be are called Babybackers, that Davis gets manicures(BTW, my guess here is probably 75% of the league probably does) and that you can dig up photos of Davis in a funny position.

Thanks, all that helps tremendously

[Jevi]

Jevi, thanks for the pics. You once again astound the rest of us with the depth of matter that you bring to this conversation.

Let's see so far from you we have learned that Davis gets his shot blocked a lot, that people who don't think Davis' game is nearly as bad as you make it out to be are called Babybackers, that Davis gets manicures(BTW, my guess here is probably 75% of the league probably does) and that you can dig up photos of Davis in a funny position.

Thanks, all that helps tremendously

Hey, my pleasure, wanna prove I can get off the subject a bit too. Still on on stat rebuttals huh,all good. I was on vacation, came back to find this tread still going,no thank you Baby Backers

[Spilling Green Dye]

Write it down and remember you heard it here first....

Glen "Big Baby" Davis will be the first big off the bench and this team's first player off the bench 95% of the time this season.

He will also play more minutes than any other bench player.

I'll go one better.  If Baby primarily plays at the 4, he'll have the most productive season of his career and his stats and contribution to the team will only trail what he did as a playoff starter in 2009.

Mike

I buy this.  Why?  B/c last regular season, which you are comparing it to, the Celtics were superior in every single major category when Davis was not on the court... except one.  When Davis was on the court the Celtics were 1.7% better in offensive rebounding.  I not only expect Davis to have a better year, but really hope he does.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS15.HTM  (scroll down to the bottom for "on/off stats")

  When you look at his on/off stats, you have to also look at his 5-man units. It lists the 20 most frequent lineups he appeared in. Rondo's in less than half of them, Ray and Paul are in fewer still and Perk and KG are only in 1 or 2 of them. If he spends the bulk of his time playing with the likes of Eddie, Nate, Tony, Finley, Shelden and Sheed, would you expect those lineups  to do as well as our other lineups?

Normall yes, that would be a valid argument.  However, if you look at the +/- categories from those other players you'll find that they have more + categories than Davis.  Therefore its pretty easy to conclude that Davis is even the weak link amongst the bench.

Also, Jevi, I don't know why you quoted me as if I was trying to make some sort of "support Davis" post.  I think you should re-read my post that I linked the stats.

Jevi, you are really providing some funny posts lol

[nickagneta]

Jevi, thanks for the pics. You once again astound the rest of us with the depth of matter that you bring to this conversation.

Let's see so far from you we have learned that Davis gets his shot blocked a lot, that people who don't think Davis' game is nearly as bad as you make it out to be are called Babybackers, that Davis gets manicures(BTW, my guess here is probably 75% of the league probably does) and that you can dig up photos of Davis in a funny position.

Thanks, all that helps tremendously

Hey, my pleasure, wanna prove I can get off the subject a bit too. Still on on stat rebuttals huh,all good. I was on vacation, came back to find this tread still going,no thank you Baby Backers

TP4U Jevi...I may not agree with much of what you said in this thread but your consistent and a good sport about it.

[Jevi]

 My whole gripe was the players played worst with Baby. Why are players missing so much, when he's on floor? Offense never flows, he'll get offensive rebounds, but get blocked, fastbreak other way. He could try starting a fastbreak once in a while with defensive rebounds too, but he hardly ever  does that. Offensive rebounds just make me wonder why is the ball always finding him, then in the basket. Plus, Rondo's made to run, not watch Baby in halfcourt set. Don't need stats to see dysfunctional offense,created by a player, but stats prove someone isn't as productive. I dont hate Baby, just don't think he fits this team, not his fault. I blame Doc & DA for trusting him this long. Of course when season begins, i'll root for him to get better. I agreed with your post Spilling Green Dye, why I quoted you, TP.

[nickagneta]

My whole grip was the players played worst with Baby. Why are players missing so much, when he's on floor? Offense never flows, he gets offensive rebound, gets blocked, fastbreak other way. He could try starting a fastbreak once in a while with defensive rebounds too, but he NEVER does that. Offensive rebounds just make me wonder why is the ball always finding him, and not in the net. Plus Rondo's made to run, not watch Baby get swatted in halfcourt set. I don't need stats to see dysfunctional offense created by one player, but stats prove someone isn't as productive. And I dont hate Baby, just don't think he fits this team, not his fault I blame Doc & DA for that. Of course when season begins, gotta root him to get better. I agreed with your post Spilling Green Dye, why I quoted you, TP.

I think I adressed some of the on court off court stats above:

When he is off the court what percentage of the time he is off the court is the starting unit out there as a whole? 60%? 70%? 80%? So when he is off the court most of the time the best starting five in basketball is on the court.

When he is on the court what percentage of the time is he playing with only one starter on the court? 50%? 60%? So most of the time he is on the court he is playing with the players that are 6-12 on the Celtics depth chart.

Is it any wonder that on/off stats show the Celtics are better off when Baby is off the court than when he is on the court?

[Mike-Dub]

I hate seeing this thread as one of the top ones.  This thread should be locked it isn't right at all.  Baby should be no where but here. 

[Jevi]

Give some respect to Big Baby
After reading JR and Bill Simmons's articles about Rasheed I got to thinking about who embodies everything Rasheed doesn't on the basketball court.  That person for the Celtics is Glen "Big Baby" Davis.  Sure, Davis isn't the brightest guy in the world off the court. His altercation with his best friend in the off season left him out of the Celtics lineup for a good chunk of the first half of the season. He's also been known to be a little too sensitive, crying a couple years ago after Garnett yelled at him.

However, his effort on the basketball court is as good as anyone's. He takes charges as well as any Celtic since Leon Powe. He dives after loose balls and hustles after every rebound.  In fact, he's the only player in the league with more offensive rebounds than defensive rebounds.  Offensive rebounding is all about wanting the ball more than your opponent and Davis always does.

Remember Easter Sunday when Davis went about 6 rows up trying to get a loose ball? What about when he took a charge on Lebron? He doesn't back down from anyone. Except maybe Garnett who is the scariest player in the NBA.

I hate it when people lash out at Big Baby for not being able to jump. How is that his fault? Sure, he misses too many layups because of his lack of a vertical leap, but he does many more things well than he does poorly.  I always judge a player on how his play matches up to his ability.  Glen Davis maximizes his potential. Also don't forget how huge he was during last year's playoffs. I truly think we'd be better off at least offensively if we play him over Rasheed in the playoffs. Sure, it will all depend on matchups, but if we are going to go down I'd rather go down with a player like Glen Davis than someone who doesn't care.
By Karl Dillinger

How'd that work out by the way,Karl?

[GreenFaith1819]

Jevi - my sides are splitting......

I bet that you can't let this thread die - for three days?

Just let it go away.

[Jevi]

Three days huh, fine with me. I will take a sabbatical from  Tupacing Baby, starting midnight on the 11th no doubt. Til then, here's this

Nobody describes what Baby does to the offense better than...Baby himself, that's right Backers. He speaks only about when he enters in 2nd half. Apologies to this sad reminder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTuJaAUnTvQ&feature=player_embedded

[GreenFaith1819]

Three days huh, fine with me. I will take a sabbatical from  Tupacing Baby, starting midnight on the 11th no doubt. Til then, here's this

Nobody describes what Baby does to the offense better than...Baby himself, that's right Backers. He speaks only about when he enters in 2nd half. Apologies to this sad reminder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTuJaAUnTvQ&feature=player_embedded

Jevi - just kidding. Your posts, though, are becoming more comical of Glen, rather than bringing to the table what his true worth is.

Laughter is Great Medicine, though - and I thank you for that.

Sure he's made mistakes, Sure, he's a big dude. But I really believe that he's in the best shape of his life right now, and with all of his flaws I love him on our team.

I remember you stating somewhere earlier in the thread that you missed Powe - we all do. But looking back - with everything that we've seen with Powe since he left - who would you rather have? Powe or Glen?

[BballTim]

Write it down and remember you heard it here first....

Glen "Big Baby" Davis will be the first big off the bench and this team's first player off the bench 95% of the time this season.

He will also play more minutes than any other bench player.

I'll go one better.  If Baby primarily plays at the 4, he'll have the most productive season of his career and his stats and contribution to the team will only trail what he did as a playoff starter in 2009.

Mike

I buy this.  Why?  B/c last regular season, which you are comparing it to, the Celtics were superior in every single major category when Davis was not on the court... except one.  When Davis was on the court the Celtics were 1.7% better in offensive rebounding.  I not only expect Davis to have a better year, but really hope he does.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS15.HTM  (scroll down to the bottom for "on/off stats")

  When you look at his on/off stats, you have to also look at his 5-man units. It lists the 20 most frequent lineups he appeared in. Rondo's in less than half of them, Ray and Paul are in fewer still and Perk and KG are only in 1 or 2 of them. If he spends the bulk of his time playing with the likes of Eddie, Nate, Tony, Finley, Shelden and Sheed, would you expect those lineups  to do as well as our other lineups?

Normall yes, that would be a valid argument.  However, if you look at the +/- categories from those other players you'll find that they have more + categories than Davis.  Therefore its pretty easy to conclude that Davis is even the weak link amongst the bench.

  Again, though, you have to look at things like how much time the players spent playing with other starters. It's not cut and dry. I'm not a huge Davis fan, by the way. I'm just saying, you have to examine the numbers more closely before you draw conclusions.