Why Is Glen Davis still on this team?

[guava_wrench]

Magnification can just as easily be called exaggeration.  Per minute "stats" take actual stats and then extrapolate from them to create theoretical numbers that players can be compared on.  Such "stats" may not be completely useless as a measure of player productivity, but there's waaaaaaaaay too many variables being taken for granted for such "stats" to be taken all that seriously.

Mike

  It's not exaggeration and it's not theoretical. It's simple math that you probably learned in 2nd or 3rd grade. If x = y, then 3x = 3y.

  If I play 8 minutes a game and get 6 rebounds a game, and Nick plays 32 minutes a game and gets 8, would you claim that Nick's clearly a better rebounder than me because he gets 8 a game and I get 6? Or would you say that I'm a better rebounder because I get .75 boards per minute when I play and Nick only gets .25 rebounds per minute?

  Saying I get 6 rebounds in a minutes a game or saying I average .75 rebounds for every minute I play or saying that my per40 rebounding rate is 30 are 3 ways to say the exact same thing. It's not an exaggeration. It's not at all theoretical because it's based solely on my actual production. It doesn't imply that, if I played 40 minutes a game, I'd get 30 rebounds a game. It say that I average 30 rebounds for every 40 minutes I'm on the court. Nothing exaggerated, nothing theoretical.

Thank you BBall. TP.

Listen, when you look at stats it is all well and good.
But it's relative to the competition, the match-ups and strength of schedule.

Red Auerbach was never a stat guy.  Neither was Bird.
Whereas, Pat Riley was and actually sometimes played his rotation based upon his own stat formula.

But what about roles?  Hustle?  defense.
Someguys rebound better than others because their teammate is boxing out.  There is alot to the game that doesn't show up on a stat board.  So stats are sometimes less meaningful.

Sometimes you are better off examining stats in the playoffs based upon the players role.

  This is all, of course, true. I don't think that stats are the be all and end all, but they are valuable. I wasn't arguing against any of your points. I was just pointing out that per36 stats are a valid tool that is useful in comparing per minute production between players, and isn't based on projections or theoretical play.

Exactly.

When he is off the court what percentage of the time he is off the court is the starting unit out there as a whole? 60%? 70%? 80%? So when he is off the court most of the time the best starting five in basketball is on the court.

When he is on the court what percentage of the time is he playing with only one starter on the court? 50%? 60%? So most of the time he is on the court he is playing with the players that are 6-12 on the Celtics depth chart.

Is it any wonder that on/off stats show the Celtics are better off when Baby is off the court than when he is on the court?

We need to be careful how we phrase that, since we should also note that Baby is playing against bench players.

We can say that we can expect the difference between the production of the starters and the production of the bench to be substantial because the starters are so good (compared to other teams), not because the bench players are inferior.

Yet, if our bench players are outperformed by opposing bench players, the fact that they are not playing with the starters is irrelevant. (So +/- for the bench is relevant, since it compares them to the opposing bench, for the most part; on court/off court stats are far less significant.)

[Jevi]

Davis ‘coming into his own’? Ehh…

Jay King

Is Glen Davis coming into his own?

Coming into his own? If that’s true, count me as forever off the Glen Davis bandwagon. Davis is shooting 22-60 during his last nine games. That’s a whopping 36.7%, for all of you who aren’t Good Will Hunting and didn’t immediately know what that percentage was. If 36.7% is Glen Davis’ own, his own sucks.

I hate to be too hard on Davis. He plays harder than anyone else on the team. He throws his body around, keeps offensive possessions alive with offensive rebounds, and has probably taken more charges than any other Celtic. But he gets blocked three-quarters of the time he shoots it (just an approximation), and misses his fair share of bunnies that don’t get blocked. For a big man to shoot 36.7% is downright awful.

http://www.tmz.com/videos?autoplay=true&mediaKey=9a54e0ea-f480-410d-bdfa-90837d4dd43f&isShareURL=true

[KCattheStripe]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

[snively]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

I don't think this is true.  Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all.  Outside of not being horrible on D and hitting the offensive boards, I can't think of anything Baby does better than most back-up 4s.

[LilRip]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

I don't think this is true.  Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all.  Outside of not being horrible on D and hitting the offensive boards, I can't think of anything Baby does better than most back-up 4s.

i wouldn't say mediocre. I would say he's average, except for getting his shot blocked. As much as those baby backers want to play that off, having your shot blocked isn't a good thing.

i took a quick look around the league and here are some backup PFs who are better than or will probably be equally as good as BBD (in our system) that aren't in our team:

Troy Murphy
Mareese Speights
Taj Gibson
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)
Jason Maxiell
Chris Wilcox
Luc Mbah Moute
Udonis Haslem
Brandon Bass
Al Harrington
Lamar Odom
Louis Amundson
Carl Landry
Shawn Marion
Chuck Hayes
DeJuan Blair
Antonio McDyess


as for backup Centers:
Chris Andersen
Marcus Camby
Joel Pryzbilla
Mehmet Okur (if Big Al starts)
Al Jefferson (if Okur starts)
Brendan Haywood
Marcin Gortat

i'm on the bubble with Dampier and big Z and Beasley

BBD is a solid enough role player. he's not horrible, but as you can see, there are a significant number of other backups better than or his equal.



- LilRip

[Bankshot]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

I don't think this is true.  Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all.  Outside of not being horrible on D and hitting the offensive boards, I can't think of anything Baby does better than most back-up 4s.

i wouldn't say mediocre. I would say he's average, except for getting his shot blocked. As much as those baby backers want to play that off, having your shot blocked isn't a good thing.

i took a quick look around the league and here are some backup PFs who are better than or will probably be equally as good as BBD (in our system) that aren't in our team:

Troy Murphy
Mareese Speights
Taj Gibson
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)
Jason Maxiell
Chris Wilcox
Luc Mbah Moute
Udonis Haslem
Brandon Bass
Al Harrington
Lamar Odom
Louis Amundson
Carl Landry
Shawn Marion
Chuck Hayes
DeJuan Blair
Antonio McDyess


as for backup Centers:
Chris Andersen
Marcus Camby
Joel Pryzbilla
Mehmet Okur (if Big Al starts)
Al Jefferson (if Okur starts)
Brendan Haywood
Marcin Gortat

i'm on the bubble with Dampier and big Z and Beasley

BBD is a solid enough role player. he's not horrible, but as you can see, there are a significant number of other backups better than or his equal.



- LilRip

Maxiel is horrible. I don't care what the numbers say.  Have you watched the guy play?  He is not better than Baby and because he's also undersized, I doubt he will ever be better than Baby.

[Jevi]

Glen Davis’ flagrant foul; how one play changed an entire game

Jay King | Jan 12, 2010 |

It’s rare you can look back at one single play and say it determined the outcome of a game.  Even in a game decided by a buzzer-beater, it’s normally tough to single out that one play as the game’s lone turning point.

But last night, I can honestly look back at one play and say to myself, “That was where the Celtics lost the game.”

You probably already know exactly what play I’m talking about: Glen Davis chasing Marvin Williams from behind, fouling him in the general vicinity of his neck, and getting called for a flagrant foul.  It wasn’t necessarily the flagrant foul that did the Celtics in; it was the fallout from the call.

First, Doc Rivers argued the call vehemently, earning himself two technical fouls and a premature trip to the locker room.  Then, assistant coach Armond Hill picked up a technical foul himself, giving the Hawks five free throws and the ball.  When it was all said and done, a 67-57 Boston lead was cut to 67-61 and the Hawks were suddenly back in the game.

Before that play, the Celtics had been coasting, Rajon Rondo was dominating the game, and everything was flowing smoothly.  Boston was clearly the better team, outplaying LA Atlanta in all facets of the game. (Baby enters) Then, as soon as a referee could cross his arms in an upright “X”, the flagrant foul sign, the momentum had shifted.  All of a sudden, Atlanta was getting easy dunks, Joe Johnson was hitting everything he threw up, and the Celtics were throwing the ball all over the court.

After Doc’s ejection forced him to the locker room, Tom Thibodeau took the reigns.  In the past, I have argued that Thibs deserves a head coaching job somewhere; his mastery of defensive schemes is unparalleled in the NBA.  But last night, with Doc taking a shower and the C’s recent nemeses, the Hawks, on the comeback trail, Thibodeau simply choked.

He coached for the final 18 minutes and 16 seconds of the game, and didn’t make a single substitution(Baby).  Do you know how impossible that is?  Granted, the Celtics were shorthanded.  They were down to Brian Scalabrine in their starting lineup, for God’s sake.  But to not make a single sub, over a quarter and a half?  I can’t help but think Thibodeau must have simply forgotten that he had to make subs.

Unfortunately for the Celtics, Thibs also seemingly forgot every play in the playbook.  I know he’s a defensive specialist and everything, but something tells me if Doc was coaching the offense wouldn’t have been nearly as stagnant as it was under Thibs.  In the final period, the offense completely broke down and the Celtics spent several possessions clearing out Glen Davis or Kendrick Perkins for a post-up.  The wheels were falling off, and Thibs and Rajon Rondo decide to call Davis’ and Perkins’ numbers time after time?  Does anyone else see anything wrong with that picture?

Looking back, even late in the third quarter the C’s offense had completely digressed into one-on-one play, one pass and a contested shot.  The only differences in the third quarter were that Paul Pierce was the one taking the shots, and he was making them.  For whatever reason, after Thibodeau took over for Doc, the C’s offense almost completely fell apart.  It lost all the free-flowing ball movement and attack-mode penetration that made it so tough to stop in the first half, and disintegrated into isolations on the block for Perk and Big Baby.

So the call changed the entire game, but was it really a flagrant foul?  I certainly didn’t think so but, as a ref, when you see a big, beefy arm come across an opponent’s neck as he goes up for a layup, it would be easy to blow the whistle for a flagrant.  Okay, now I’m done with the politically correct answer, and it’s time to move on to my true thoughts because I’m being far too kind to the refs…

There is no chance it was a flagrant foul.  The hit was so weak Davis could have hit my 89 year-old grandmother with the same force and I wouldn’t have even been upset with him; I would have thought it was cute that he was being so gentle with her.

On top of that, when a ref makes a bad call he should never, ever, under any circumstances, compound the call by adding a technical foul to make the call even worse.  When a ref makes a bad, or even questionable call, he should just swallow his pride — and whistle — as the team he screwed lets off a little steam.  To call a weak flagrant foul, then proceed to call three successive technical fouls, only serves to make the original bad call even worse.

But the call was made, and the damage was done.  Later in the game, after all that rubbish was sorted through, Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford hit some enormous shots and the Celtics missed a fair share of opportunities.

But the game wasn’t won or lost in the fourth quarter.

It was decided with 6:16 to go in the third, as soon as the referees made the sign of the “X”.

What does this game remind fans of? Hint: Baby subs in with starting four, with double figure lead looks familiar.

[Birdbrain]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

I don't think this is true.  Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all.  Outside of not being horrible on D and hitting the offensive boards, I can't think of anything Baby does better than most back-up 4s.

i wouldn't say mediocre. I would say he's average, except for getting his shot blocked. As much as those baby backers want to play that off, having your shot blocked isn't a good thing.

i took a quick look around the league and here are some backup PFs who are better than or will probably be equally as good as BBD (in our system) that aren't in our team:

Troy Murphy
Mareese Speights
Taj Gibson
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)
Jason Maxiell
Chris Wilcox
Luc Mbah Moute
Udonis Haslem
Brandon Bass
Al Harrington
Lamar Odom
Louis Amundson
Carl Landry
Shawn Marion
Chuck Hayes
DeJuan Blair
Antonio McDyess


as for backup Centers:
Chris Andersen
Marcus Camby
Joel Pryzbilla
Mehmet Okur (if Big Al starts)
Al Jefferson (if Okur starts)
Brendan Haywood
Marcin Gortat

i'm on the bubble with Dampier and big Z and Beasley

BBD is a solid enough role player. he's not horrible, but as you can see, there are a significant number of other backups better than or his equal.



- LilRip

Some of those guys aren't PFs and some aren't as good and most are paid about 3X as much.  Anyway he's underrated by most C's fans so that's not surprising.  I'm just glad no one on this site has very much say in whether he's on the roster.

I'll be happy if the C's win and he plays 5 mins or C's win and he plays 15 mins.  I don't get the same sense from the 'blocked shots crew'.

Someone literally tried to make the case that BBD was the reason for the game 7 loss... That's straining logic to scale never seen before.  Unfathomable.   

[MBz]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

I don't think this is true.  Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all.  Outside of not being horrible on D and hitting the offensive boards, I can't think of anything Baby does better than most back-up 4s.

i wouldn't say mediocre. I would say he's average, except for getting his shot blocked. As much as those baby backers want to play that off, having your shot blocked isn't a good thing.

i took a quick look around the league and here are some backup PFs who are better than or will probably be equally as good as BBD (in our system) that aren't in our team:

Troy Murphy
Mareese Speights
Taj Gibson
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)
Jason Maxiell
Chris Wilcox
Luc Mbah Moute
Udonis Haslem
Brandon Bass
Al Harrington
Lamar Odom
Louis Amundson
Carl Landry
Shawn Marion
Chuck Hayes
DeJuan Blair
Antonio McDyess


as for backup Centers:
Chris Andersen
Marcus Camby
Joel Pryzbilla
Mehmet Okur (if Big Al starts)
Al Jefferson (if Okur starts)
Brendan Haywood
Marcin Gortat

i'm on the bubble with Dampier and big Z and Beasley

BBD is a solid enough role player. he's not horrible, but as you can see, there are a significant number of other backups better than or his equal.



- LilRip

Some of those guys aren't PFs and some aren't as good and most are paid about 3X as much.  Anyway he's underrated by most C's fans so that's not surprising.  I'm just glad no one on this site has very much say in whether he's on the roster.

I'll be happy if the C's win and he plays 5 mins or C's win and he plays 15 mins.  I don't get the same sense from the 'blocked shots crew'.

Someone literally tried to make the case that BBD was the reason for the game 7 loss... That's straining logic to scale never seen before.  Unfathomable.   

Lot of those guys are starters or 6th men.  Baby is the 4th big on the team.  He is not supposed to be better than those guys.  That was Sheed's job last season.  For a 4th big, at 3.3 mil a year, you just aren't going to get much better production then Big Baby.  He plays hard, but he's inconsistent.  Just like majority of the bench players in the league.  Most of those guys on your list were very inconsistent players because if they were consistent they would be starters.  You have your few that have the talent to be starters but coaches bring them off the bench to bring a different dynamic, guys like Lamar Odom or Al Harrington.

[LilRip]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

I don't think this is true.  Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all.  Outside of not being horrible on D and hitting the offensive boards, I can't think of anything Baby does better than most back-up 4s.

i wouldn't say mediocre. I would say he's average, except for getting his shot blocked. As much as those baby backers want to play that off, having your shot blocked isn't a good thing.

i took a quick look around the league and here are some backup PFs who are better than or will probably be equally as good as BBD (in our system) that aren't in our team:

Troy Murphy
Mareese Speights
Taj Gibson
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)
Jason Maxiell
Chris Wilcox
Luc Mbah Moute
Udonis Haslem
Brandon Bass
Al Harrington
Lamar Odom
Louis Amundson
Carl Landry
Shawn Marion
Chuck Hayes
DeJuan Blair
Antonio McDyess


as for backup Centers:
Chris Andersen
Marcus Camby
Joel Pryzbilla
Mehmet Okur (if Big Al starts)
Al Jefferson (if Okur starts)
Brendan Haywood
Marcin Gortat

i'm on the bubble with Dampier and big Z and Beasley

BBD is a solid enough role player. he's not horrible, but as you can see, there are a significant number of other backups better than or his equal.



- LilRip

Some of those guys aren't PFs and some aren't as good and most are paid about 3X as much.  Anyway he's underrated by most C's fans so that's not surprising.  I'm just glad no one on this site has very much say in whether he's on the roster.

I'll be happy if the C's win and he plays 5 mins or C's win and he plays 15 mins.  I don't get the same sense from the 'blocked shots crew'.

Someone literally tried to make the case that BBD was the reason for the game 7 loss... That's straining logic to scale never seen before.  Unfathomable.   

1) which in the PF list don't play PF? I got that list from different teams' depth charts and those are their slated backup PF's. so i don't know what you're talking about.

2) who aren't as good? and why not? (sidenote: i'm going to guess that one of your main reasons would be because of the ever-unquantifiable "basketball IQ")

3) and some get paid around the same and some get paid even less. so what's your point? the issue at hand is that BBD is being compared to backups. And these are the backups in the NBA.



and the problem with blocked shots is that well, it's a blocked shot. it's like missing a layup. remember how annoying it'd get when TA would miss those layups? or when Perk would fumble the ball down low? or heck, even when Perk would get blocked? that's a blocked shot. what makes blocked shots particularly bad too is that they can usually lead to fast break bucket more than a missed jumper (unless it's a long rebound). so yeah, it's not a good stat.

i don't see how some posters can back Baby objectively to the point that they would balk at every trade (including a trade of Baby+retired Sheed for Rudy+Greg Oden) thrown. Subjectively, fine. I get it. Each is entitled to his fave players. Pierce isn't the best player in his position, but i'm sure glad we kept him. But objectively, i would hypothetically trade him for Carmelo if an offer hypothetically existed. Subjectively though, i'd be against it since he's my favorite Celtic and he deserves to retire as one.

but my post wasn't even a post about trading him. Someone had said that BBD was better than most backup PF's (i'm assuming he meant BBD was a top 5 backup PF) and someone came in and said that he was mediocre. My point was to say that he's an average backup. Better than some, worse than some, as good as some.

In short, average.



- LilRip

[LilRip]

Lot of those guys are starters or 6th men.  Baby is the 4th big on the team.  He is not supposed to be better than those guys.  That was Sheed's job last season.  For a 4th big, at 3.3 mil a year, you just aren't going to get much better production then Big Baby.  He plays hard, but he's inconsistent.  Just like majority of the bench players in the league.  Most of those guys on your list were very inconsistent players because if they were consistent they would be starters.  You have your few that have the talent to be starters but coaches bring them off the bench to bring a different dynamic, guys like Lamar Odom or Al Harrington.

so Lamar Odom should start ahead of Pau Gasol? Or Al Harrington ahead of Kenyon Martin or Nene? they're good players but they're backups on their team.

again, the point of contention was that BBD was (to quote) "better than most back up power forwards". and someone chimed in with "Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all."

my point is that he's pretty average compared to "backup power forwards".



- LilRip

[Celtics18]

LilRip,

Do you know that mediocre and average are synonyms?

[LilRip]

LilRip,

Do you know that mediocre and average are synonyms?

i've always viewed mediocre as "passable i guess but not good enough" and average, simply as "good enough" or passable.



- LilRip

[LilRip]

i can't believe we're doing this but here's a definition i got from the web:

Mediocre: "rather poor or inferior"; "derogatory often -  average or ordinary in quality: a mediocre book"

Average: "typical; common; ordinary: The average secretary couldn't handle such a workload. His grades were nothing special, only average."



- LilRip

[Celtics18]

LilRip,

Do you know that mediocre and average are synonyms?

i've always viewed mediocre as "passable i guess but not good enough" and average, simply as "good enough" or passable.



- LilRip

Thanks for that.  I was actually a little unsure of how you were using each word based on the context. 

Now I know.  Mediocre is worse than average.