Why Is Glen Davis still on this team?

[KCattheStripe]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

I don't think this is true.  Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all.  Outside of not being horrible on D and hitting the offensive boards, I can't think of anything Baby does better than most back-up 4s.

i wouldn't say mediocre. I would say he's average, except for getting his shot blocked. As much as those baby backers want to play that off, having your shot blocked isn't a good thing.

i took a quick look around the league and here are some backup PFs who are better than or will probably be equally as good as BBD (in our system) that aren't in our team:

Troy Murphy
Mareese Speights
Taj Gibson
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)
Jason Maxiell
Chris Wilcox
Luc Mbah Moute
Udonis Haslem
Brandon Bass
Al Harrington
Lamar Odom
Louis Amundson
Carl Landry
Shawn Marion
Chuck Hayes
DeJuan Blair
Antonio McDyess


as for backup Centers:
Chris Andersen
Marcus Camby
Joel Pryzbilla
Mehmet Okur (if Big Al starts)
Al Jefferson (if Okur starts)
Brendan Haywood
Marcin Gortat

i'm on the bubble with Dampier and big Z and Beasley

BBD is a solid enough role player. he's not horrible, but as you can see, there are a significant number of other backups better than or his equal.



- LilRip

Troy Murphy- Murphy has been a starter most of his career and will probably start in Jersey.
Mareese Speights- Baby is better than
Taj Gibson- Baby is better than
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)- Baby is better than
Jason Maxiell- Baby is better than
Chris Wilcox- Should only be a 4th big on an ok team
Luc Mbah Moute- is more of a 3/4, but if you want to have him, I'd still take Baby's strength and size of over the Prince
Udonis Haslem- Better than Baby
Brandon Bass- I'd take Baby's versatility offensively as well as his motor over Bass anyday.
Al Harrington- Has been a starter a large part of his career. Is also a malcontent and a ball hog. Give me Baby.
Lamar Odom- I would take him over baby.
Louis Amundson- Has had one very good season, but I'm not willing to claim he's better than baby.
Carl Landry- Isn't Landry starting now? If he isn't he's a better bench big.
Shawn Marion- Shawn is a better 3/4. But against 4s I'd say Baby is better at this point.
Chuck Hayes- Baby
DeJuan Blair- Can rebound like a mother, but I don't know if he can do anything else. Give me baby for now.
Antonio McDyess- That's just silly.

So out of your list I have picked 3 maybe 4 who are out and out better than Baby. Also, to the discussion about Baby's blocked shots, I would love to see a stat about how many times Baby had a blocked shot after he pulled an offensive rebound away from two bigger guys. It puts him in a weird double team he can't pass out of and has to force a shot. But honestly, I'm ok with it because it makes the opposing bigs work harder and puts them at risk for a foul. AT that point he's playing with house money.

[Tai]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

I don't think this is true.  Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all.  Outside of not being horrible on D and hitting the offensive boards, I can't think of anything Baby does better than most back-up 4s.

i wouldn't say mediocre. I would say he's average, except for getting his shot blocked. As much as those baby backers want to play that off, having your shot blocked isn't a good thing.

i took a quick look around the league and here are some backup PFs who are better than or will probably be equally as good as BBD (in our system) that aren't in our team:

Troy Murphy
Mareese Speights
Taj Gibson
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)
Jason Maxiell
Chris Wilcox
Luc Mbah Moute
Udonis Haslem
Brandon Bass
Al Harrington
Lamar Odom
Louis Amundson
Carl Landry
Shawn Marion
Chuck Hayes
DeJuan Blair
Antonio McDyess


as for backup Centers:
Chris Andersen
Marcus Camby
Joel Pryzbilla
Mehmet Okur (if Big Al starts)
Al Jefferson (if Okur starts)
Brendan Haywood
Marcin Gortat

i'm on the bubble with Dampier and big Z and Beasley

BBD is a solid enough role player. he's not horrible, but as you can see, there are a significant number of other backups better than or his equal.



- LilRip

Some of those guys aren't PFs and some aren't as good and most are paid about 3X as much.  Anyway he's underrated by most C's fans so that's not surprising.  I'm just glad no one on this site has very much say in whether he's on the roster.

I'll be happy if the C's win and he plays 5 mins or C's win and he plays 15 mins.  I don't get the same sense from the 'blocked shots crew'.

Someone literally tried to make the case that BBD was the reason for the game 7 loss... That's straining logic to scale never seen before.  Unfathomable.   

1) which in the PF list don't play PF? I got that list from different teams' depth charts and those are their slated backup PF's. so i don't know what you're talking about.

2) who aren't as good? and why not? (sidenote: i'm going to guess that one of your main reasons would be because of the ever-unquantifiable "basketball IQ")

3) and some get paid around the same and some get paid even less. so what's your point? the issue at hand is that BBD is being compared to backups. And these are the backups in the NBA.



and the problem with blocked shots is that well, it's a blocked shot. it's like missing a layup. remember how annoying it'd get when TA would miss those layups? or when Perk would fumble the ball down low? or heck, even when Perk would get blocked? that's a blocked shot. what makes blocked shots particularly bad too is that they can usually lead to fast break bucket more than a missed jumper (unless it's a long rebound). so yeah, it's not a good stat.

i don't see how some posters can back Baby objectively to the point that they would balk at every trade (including a trade of Baby+retired Sheed for Rudy+Greg Oden) thrown. Subjectively, fine. I get it. Each is entitled to his fave players. Pierce isn't the best player in his position, but i'm sure glad we kept him. But objectively, i would hypothetically trade him for Carmelo if an offer hypothetically existed. Subjectively though, i'd be against it since he's my favorite Celtic and he deserves to retire as one.

but my post wasn't even a post about trading him. Someone had said that BBD was better than most backup PF's (i'm assuming he meant BBD was a top 5 backup PF) and someone came in and said that he was mediocre. My point was to say that he's an average backup. Better than some, worse than some, as good as some.

In short, average.



- LilRip

Even though you said your post wasn't about trading, I feel like you're insulting BBD fans when you claim they wouldn't trade Baby for Carmelo or Baby+Retiring Sheed for Rudy+Oden. I'd definitely like to know how the GMs of those teams would feel! 

Honestly, the fact BBD is even tradeable is a sign to me personally that he has value after all, so it's not like I look at every trade involving BBD and scoff. I mean, we in theory could trade KG for example, we're just not going to. 

I just don't want BBD traded for someone who clearly isn't worth it. Someone once mentioned trading BBD for Najera straight up. That's ridiculous.

[LilRip]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

I don't think this is true.  Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all.  Outside of not being horrible on D and hitting the offensive boards, I can't think of anything Baby does better than most back-up 4s.

i wouldn't say mediocre. I would say he's average, except for getting his shot blocked. As much as those baby backers want to play that off, having your shot blocked isn't a good thing.

i took a quick look around the league and here are some backup PFs who are better than or will probably be equally as good as BBD (in our system) that aren't in our team:

Troy Murphy
Mareese Speights
Taj Gibson
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)
Jason Maxiell
Chris Wilcox
Luc Mbah Moute
Udonis Haslem
Brandon Bass
Al Harrington
Lamar Odom
Louis Amundson
Carl Landry
Shawn Marion
Chuck Hayes
DeJuan Blair
Antonio McDyess


as for backup Centers:
Chris Andersen
Marcus Camby
Joel Pryzbilla
Mehmet Okur (if Big Al starts)
Al Jefferson (if Okur starts)
Brendan Haywood
Marcin Gortat

i'm on the bubble with Dampier and big Z and Beasley

BBD is a solid enough role player. he's not horrible, but as you can see, there are a significant number of other backups better than or his equal.



- LilRip

Some of those guys aren't PFs and some aren't as good and most are paid about 3X as much.  Anyway he's underrated by most C's fans so that's not surprising.  I'm just glad no one on this site has very much say in whether he's on the roster.

I'll be happy if the C's win and he plays 5 mins or C's win and he plays 15 mins.  I don't get the same sense from the 'blocked shots crew'.

Someone literally tried to make the case that BBD was the reason for the game 7 loss... That's straining logic to scale never seen before.  Unfathomable.  

1) which in the PF list don't play PF? I got that list from different teams' depth charts and those are their slated backup PF's. so i don't know what you're talking about.

2) who aren't as good? and why not? (sidenote: i'm going to guess that one of your main reasons would be because of the ever-unquantifiable "basketball IQ")

3) and some get paid around the same and some get paid even less. so what's your point? the issue at hand is that BBD is being compared to backups. And these are the backups in the NBA.



and the problem with blocked shots is that well, it's a blocked shot. it's like missing a layup. remember how annoying it'd get when TA would miss those layups? or when Perk would fumble the ball down low? or heck, even when Perk would get blocked? that's a blocked shot. what makes blocked shots particularly bad too is that they can usually lead to fast break bucket more than a missed jumper (unless it's a long rebound). so yeah, it's not a good stat.

i don't see how some posters can back Baby objectively to the point that they would balk at every trade (including a trade of Baby+retired Sheed for Rudy+Greg Oden) thrown. Subjectively, fine. I get it. Each is entitled to his fave players. Pierce isn't the best player in his position, but i'm sure glad we kept him. But objectively, i would hypothetically trade him for Carmelo if an offer hypothetically existed. Subjectively though, i'd be against it since he's my favorite Celtic and he deserves to retire as one.

but my post wasn't even a post about trading him. Someone had said that BBD was better than most backup PF's (i'm assuming he meant BBD was a top 5 backup PF) and someone came in and said that he was mediocre. My point was to say that he's an average backup. Better than some, worse than some, as good as some.

In short, average.



- LilRip

Even though you said your post wasn't about trading, I feel like you're insulting BBD fans when you claim they wouldn't trade Baby for Carmelo or Baby+Retiring Sheed for Rudy+Oden. I'd definitely like to know how the GMs of those teams would feel!  

Honestly, the fact BBD is even tradeable is a sign to me personally that he has value after all, so it's not like I look at every trade involving BBD and scoff. I mean, we in theory could trade KG for example, we're just not going to.  

I just don't want BBD traded for someone who clearly isn't worth it. Someone once mentioned trading BBD for Najera straight up. That's ridiculous.

i said Pierce for Carmelo. But as for the Oden situation, it actually happened on this very board! Someone had suggested during the whole Rudy fiasco that they hoped Portland would include Oden in the package. I said, along with a few others, that that was ridiculous. And at that point, someone chimed in too with the fact that yes, it's ridiculous but only because we were getting the short end of the deal. I thought he was being sarcastic but turns out, he was SERIOUS! Baby > Oden in his book.

so no, i'm not pulling that example out of nowhere. The Pierce-for-Carmelo trade, that i made up. But the Baby+Sheed for Rudy+Oden was indeed discussed here on CB. i forgot which Rudy F. thread it was in though, but i'm sure you can look for it.

EDIT: and yes, he has value. Why else would he be involved in so many trade discussions? you have to give up some value to get back some value. and right now, in my eyes at least, he's our most tradeable asset. and i'd rather have a back up wing rather than Baby for the fact that that wing will be our 1st wing off the bench rather than our 4th big. it's not a knock on BBD but more because i don't have much confidence in either MD or Wafer. But that's another subject entirely.



- LilRip

[Fan from VT]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

I don't think this is true.  Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all.  Outside of not being horrible on D and hitting the offensive boards, I can't think of anything Baby does better than most back-up 4s.

i wouldn't say mediocre. I would say he's average, except for getting his shot blocked. As much as those baby backers want to play that off, having your shot blocked isn't a good thing.

i took a quick look around the league and here are some backup PFs who are better than or will probably be equally as good as BBD (in our system) that aren't in our team:

Troy Murphy
Mareese Speights
Taj Gibson
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)
Jason Maxiell
Chris Wilcox
Luc Mbah Moute
Udonis Haslem
Brandon Bass
Al Harrington
Lamar Odom
Louis Amundson
Carl Landry
Shawn Marion
Chuck Hayes
DeJuan Blair
Antonio McDyess


as for backup Centers:
Chris Andersen
Marcus Camby
Joel Pryzbilla
Mehmet Okur (if Big Al starts)
Al Jefferson (if Okur starts)
Brendan Haywood
Marcin Gortat

i'm on the bubble with Dampier and big Z and Beasley

BBD is a solid enough role player. he's not horrible, but as you can see, there are a significant number of other backups better than or his equal.



- LilRip

Troy Murphy- Murphy has been a starter most of his career and will probably start in Jersey.
Mareese Speights- Baby is better than
Taj Gibson- Baby is better than
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)- Baby is better than
Jason Maxiell- Baby is better than
Chris Wilcox- Should only be a 4th big on an ok team
Luc Mbah Moute- is more of a 3/4, but if you want to have him, I'd still take Baby's strength and size of over the Prince
Udonis Haslem- Better than Baby
Brandon Bass- I'd take Baby's versatility offensively as well as his motor over Bass anyday.
Al Harrington- Has been a starter a large part of his career. Is also a malcontent and a ball hog. Give me Baby.
Lamar Odom- I would take him over baby.
Louis Amundson- Has had one very good season, but I'm not willing to claim he's better than baby.
Carl Landry- Isn't Landry starting now? If he isn't he's a better bench big.
Shawn Marion- Shawn is a better 3/4. But against 4s I'd say Baby is better at this point.
Chuck Hayes- Baby
DeJuan Blair- Can rebound like a mother, but I don't know if he can do anything else. Give me baby for now.
Antonio McDyess- That's just silly.

So out of your list I have picked 3 maybe 4 who are out and out better than Baby. Also, to the discussion about Baby's blocked shots, I would love to see a stat about how many times Baby had a blocked shot after he pulled an offensive rebound away from two bigger guys. It puts him in a weird double team he can't pass out of and has to force a shot. But honestly, I'm ok with it because it makes the opposing bigs work harder and puts them at risk for a foul. AT that point he's playing with house money.

I disagree with a lot of your comparisons.
-Speights: Overall slightly better now, definitely better in the future
-Gibson: better overall, i'd take davis now if i needed someone to play the 5 off the bench. we don't.
-Hickson: Significantly better now and down the road
-Maxiell: Better. Similar D, Maxiell better on O by a margin.
-Wilcox: I kind of like him for a limited role, but I take Davis for sure.
-Mbah a Moute: Better. More valuable, especially for our team.
-Haslem: Better.
-Bass: Significantly Better, as long as no heavy minutes at the 5.
-Harrington: better overall. Maybe not for this team though, but he probably would be.
-Odom: way better.
-Amundson: Can't say. In a vacuum I take Davis because he's done more and is more proven. But there's a good chance he's better because of superior finishing skill, defense and rebounding. I really would like the scenario of trading Davis for a true bench 3 and signing amundson with the min.
-Landry or Jason Thompson: Better than Davis by a margin
-Marion: Better, but on his way down and going to be more overpaid soon.
-Chuck Hayes: Better than Davis; he's one of the best big man defenders there is. Elite level.
-Blair: as long as his knees are okay, he's better than Davis.
-McDyess: at this point i'll take Davis.

Other Bench guys I'll take (either better than Davis outright or better for our team):
-Diaw or Ty Thomas
-Maybe Amir Johnson
-Craig Smith
-Maybe Hakim Warrick
-Maybe Jordan Hill (particularly down the road
-Matt Bonner
-Serge Ibaka
-Chris Andersen
-Probably Turiaf (defense)
-Josh McRoberts, Dante Cunningham, and Tyler Hansbrough all fall in the category of close to Davis such that I'd take any of the three back in a trade if such a trade also netted a useful bench 3 (i.e. McRoberts/Hansbrough plus Rush or Dahntay Jones from Indiana or Cunningham and Rudy from Portland).




Anyway, what this whole thing of "Why Is Glen Davis still on this team?" boils down to is not that anyone (that I know of) wants Davis off the team for no reason, but rather that he is expendable and perhaps enticing to other teams; the only player (except perhaps Robinson, Perk, or Bradley) who could perhaps make our team better if traded for a certain package. Namely, I think a lot of people here are pointing out that in 10-20 mpg at the 4 spot, we could replace Davis with many other players and not lose much (if anything) while making the team better overall if Davis were moved for a useful 3; any of the players above plus a useful small forward would improve the C's.

[snively]

Simple answer:

He's better than most back up power forwards and he's already under contract.

I don't think this is true.  Big Baby is far more versatile than most back-up forwards (he can do a little bit of everything), but he's pretty mediocre over all.  Outside of not being horrible on D and hitting the offensive boards, I can't think of anything Baby does better than most back-up 4s.

i wouldn't say mediocre. I would say he's average, except for getting his shot blocked. As much as those baby backers want to play that off, having your shot blocked isn't a good thing.

i took a quick look around the league and here are some backup PFs who are better than or will probably be equally as good as BBD (in our system) that aren't in our team:

Troy Murphy
Mareese Speights
Taj Gibson
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)
Jason Maxiell
Chris Wilcox
Luc Mbah Moute
Udonis Haslem
Brandon Bass
Al Harrington
Lamar Odom
Louis Amundson
Carl Landry
Shawn Marion
Chuck Hayes
DeJuan Blair
Antonio McDyess


as for backup Centers:
Chris Andersen
Marcus Camby
Joel Pryzbilla
Mehmet Okur (if Big Al starts)
Al Jefferson (if Okur starts)
Brendan Haywood
Marcin Gortat

i'm on the bubble with Dampier and big Z and Beasley

BBD is a solid enough role player. he's not horrible, but as you can see, there are a significant number of other backups better than or his equal.



- LilRip

Troy Murphy- Murphy has been a starter most of his career and will probably start in Jersey.
Mareese Speights- Baby is better than
Taj Gibson- Baby is better than
JJ Hickson (assuming Jamison starts)- Baby is better than
Jason Maxiell- Baby is better than
Chris Wilcox- Should only be a 4th big on an ok team
Luc Mbah Moute- is more of a 3/4, but if you want to have him, I'd still take Baby's strength and size of over the Prince
Udonis Haslem- Better than Baby
Brandon Bass- I'd take Baby's versatility offensively as well as his motor over Bass anyday.
Al Harrington- Has been a starter a large part of his career. Is also a malcontent and a ball hog. Give me Baby.
Lamar Odom- I would take him over baby.
Louis Amundson- Has had one very good season, but I'm not willing to claim he's better than baby.
Carl Landry- Isn't Landry starting now? If he isn't he's a better bench big.
Shawn Marion- Shawn is a better 3/4. But against 4s I'd say Baby is better at this point.
Chuck Hayes- Baby
DeJuan Blair- Can rebound like a mother, but I don't know if he can do anything else. Give me baby for now.
Antonio McDyess- That's just silly.

So out of your list I have picked 3 maybe 4 who are out and out better than Baby. Also, to the discussion about Baby's blocked shots, I would love to see a stat about how many times Baby had a blocked shot after he pulled an offensive rebound away from two bigger guys. It puts him in a weird double team he can't pass out of and has to force a shot. But honestly, I'm ok with it because it makes the opposing bigs work harder and puts them at risk for a foul. AT that point he's playing with house money.

You really think Baby is better than Gibson, Speights and Hickson?  Statistically he's inferior to every one of them across a variety of metrics. Best case, his intangibles (role versatility, screen setting, general smarts) make him comparable.

[Fan from VT]

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/08/14/danny-granger-expects-pacers-to-deal-for-a-big-man/

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/features/rumors#17903

[nickagneta]

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/08/14/danny-granger-expects-pacers-to-deal-for-a-big-man/

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/features/rumors#17903

If we could be 100% assured of signing Louis Amundson I would have not problem whatsoever with a Baby for Brandon Rush trade, though I doubt Indiana would do it. Dahntay Jones might even be acceptable in a Baby trade as well.

[Q_FBE]

Because he is an outstanding role player who kicked Lamar Odom's butt in the NBA Finals. Hopefully he will fill out as our 1st or 2nd big off the bench this upcoming season.

[jr_3421]

Because he is an outstanding role player who kicked Lamar Odom's butt in the NBA Finals. Hopefully he will fill out as our 1st or 2nd big off the bench this upcoming season.

pretty sure he has filled out quite enough

[ben]

Because he is an outstanding role player who kicked Lamar Odom's butt in the NBA Finals. Hopefully he will fill out as our 1st or 2nd big off the bench this upcoming season.

ummm, no.

3rd big off bench this year.  he'll fight for minutes behind JO and Shaq

[Bankshot]

Because he is an outstanding role player who kicked Lamar Odom's butt in the NBA Finals. Hopefully he will fill out as our 1st or 2nd big off the bench this upcoming season.

ummm, no.  BBD was invisible during the finals except for the shrek and donkey game.  

3rd big off bench this year.  he'll fight for minutes behind JO and Shaq

He had 9 rebounds in game 7.  That's 6 more than KG had even playing more minutes. I can't believe I just contributed to this never ending thread.   It won't die! lol

[Jevi]

He had 9 rebounds in game 7.  That's 6 more than KG had even playing more minutes. I can't believe I just contributed to this never ending thread.   It won't die! lol

No,that's 6 pts he had in the final 3 games. There's no Finals without KG, you can't even fix your lips to say Baby would've got us that far. Baby came into a 13 point lead, not KG. I'm just saying.

[Jevi]

Gee, what do you say Baby?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIXkJxuU78k&feature=player_embedded
You what? I thought so. At least he ain't cried again.

[kozlodoev]

You really think Baby is better than Gibson, Speights and Hickson?  Statistically he's inferior to every one of them across a variety of metrics. Best case, his intangibles (role versatility, screen setting, general smarts) make him comparable.

Hickson is horrible defensively. Really horrible.

[LooseCannon]

Because he is an outstanding role player who kicked Lamar Odom's butt in the NBA Finals. Hopefully he will fill out as our 1st or 2nd big off the bench this upcoming season.

I had to re-check the thread title to make sure I didn't click on a "Bring back Scal" thread by accident.