Nocioni to Boston rumored by Marc Stein!

[MVP]

Why would Sacramento do that deal?

At first glance I would say no to the deal. Would Nocioni be ahead of either Daniels or Davis in the rotation? I don't think so. Daniels provides more ball handling ability and athleticism that we need and Big Baby is a better fit at pf then Nocioni next to Wallace. So Nocioni becomes an expensive 10th man. He's also mainly a 3-point shooter who's not that athletic. We have plenty of that.

Where's the connection? Baby = 4, Nocioni = 3, Daniels = 2. End of story.

The connection is that Nocioni will be the 10th man in a 9 man rotation.

[scoop]

Why would Sacramento do that deal?

At first glance I would say no to the deal. Would Nocioni be ahead of either Daniels or Davis in the rotation? I don't think so. Daniels provides more ball handling ability and athleticism that we need and Big Baby is a better fit at pf then Nocioni next to Wallace. So Nocioni becomes an expensive 10th man. He's also mainly a 3-point shooter who's not that athletic. We have plenty of that.

Where's the connection? Baby = 4, Nocioni = 3, Daniels = 2. End of story.

The connection is that Nocioni will be the 10th man in a 9 man rotation.

I doubt it. A player like Nocioni would be very useful to allow the Celtics to matchup with small-ball lineups better and to add another outside shooter able to guard bigger 3s to their back-court rotation.

I don't believe this deal happens though.

[nickagneta]

Maybe Sacramento would want Baby.  No way we shold trade scal when he will prolly sign for the vets min next year and is a great guy to have at the end of the bench.

TP, Fatjohn - you are exactly right.

Nocioni: 2 years / 13.5m
Scal:    2 years / 4m

Nocioni is better than Scal, but there is no way he is over 3x better than Scal.  Considering the minimal role Noc would have, he is only a minor upgrade over Brian.

Scal's deal expires this year.

which is why we'd have the option of re-signing him the vet min of around 4m over 2 years. 

do you really think Nocioni is worth an additional 10m over the same time?

Vet minimum contracts that Danny will use will never be of the two year variety. One year vet minimum contracts are subsidized by the league and two year contracts are not, so Danny would never sign Scal to a two year contract at the vet minimum when he can get the league to pay for part of Scal's contract if it is a one year deal.

Also, either way, Scal is free at the end of the year so the C's could trade for Nocioni if they want and STILL re-sign Scal to a vet minimum contract for a year. Would they be redundant, maybe, but we also don't know where Ray, Marquis, and Williams will end up.

any way you look at it, Noc will cost us roughly 3x as much as Scal.

is he 3x better? 

Yes, without a question. Nocioni for all his warts is still a 12 PPG, 5 RPG top 8 rotational player and Scal is still a 3 PPG, 1.5 RPG 10th or 11th end of the bench player. And the differences are in more than just the stats. Nocioni is a major upgrade over Scal.

If he would be coming to be a 25-30 minute player, yes, much better then Scali.

But he would be coming as the 9th or 10th man.  Playing more in the 5-15 minute range.  Then, not that much better the Scali.




As for Pierce's replacement in case of injury, well that would be Daniels. 

Rondo is the only one there is no replacement for. 

But just because he wouldn't get 25-30 minutes per game this year doesn't mean he wouldn't get it either of the next two years which hence makes him way better than Scal. We can contain everything into the microcosm that is Scal's minutes. Nocioni would more than likely be getting tons of minutes, if not 6th or 7th player minutes each of the next two years. Also, it could be he might take over a bunch of eddie's minutes if Doc decides he likes a Marquis/Ray/Nocioni/Willimas(Baby)/Sheed second team better than the same team with Eddie.

If you want to squeeze Nocioni's possible contributions into the very few minutes of time that Scal gets without exploring what he could mean for the future or what other possibilities his presence could open up, then maybe he isn't that much better than Scal. Of course, in that narrow view of things I guess it could be argued that Shane Battier or Trevor Ariza isn't that much better than Scal because if we got them then they would only be playing the 3-4 MPG Scal is playing because we would never think of changing anything to use Battier's or Ariza's abilities this year.

Nocioni is a way better player than Scal and would bring a tremendous amount of better and different skills to the table for Doc to use than Scal ever would.

[Edgar]

well then you will see daniels to run the point the rest of the year when rondo isnt around, or eddie yuck 8 i hate the second idea.

Rondo   Daniels   Hudson
Ray     Eddie     Giddens  (switch daniels and Eddie when needed)
Pierce  Nocioni   Walker
KG      Sheed     BBD
Perk    Williams  A pupusa

No 18 is even closer ( come on that second unit is as good as Indianas starting lineup)

[Tough Juice]

Nocioni 10 man, hahahahahah if we make this trade, he'll kick out the roster some guys I can tell you that, he'll come right after Sheed and Daniels, and that's 8th, Big Baby, Eddie House and Shelden Williams are good players, but he is better and he will beat them out the roster spot, he'll cut their time, they won't make a effect on his playing time

[wdleehi]

Nocioni 10 man, hahahahahah if we make this trade, he'll kick out the roster some guys I can tell you that, he'll come right after Sheed and Daniels, and that's 8th, Big Baby, Eddie House and Shelden Williams are good players, but he is better and he will beat them out the roster spot, he'll cut their time, they won't make a effect on his playing time

Except they have rolls.  House is the shooter G.  Williams is the rebounder.   Davis will return soon to be the 4th big man (making Willaims the 5th)

Daniels plays most of the backup 2/3. 


4 guys already to play PF.  All bring something.  Does Noccioni bring something better then what others can?  Not really.   Wallace and KG can shoot.  Davis is more powerfull.  Williams rebounds. 

[ssspence]

we need to use those expirings to get a blossoming player, not a fading one.

Here's the catch: You can't get one with expiring contracts only.

TP, looks like some people still don't get that. In addition, we are not looking for a guy who will be a starter or even a 6th man. What do people expect for the 7th or 8th man on the team? Who was our 7th man in 2008? In 86? Who was the 7th man on the 09 Lakers, or on any of the Spurs championship teams?

The Hornets got Okefor in a salary dump. The Bobcats got Stephan Jackson in a salary dump. The Lakers got Pau Gasol in a salary dump. The Kings got John Salmons in a salary dump (Brad Miller’s). The Spurs got Richard Jefferson in a salary dump. The Bucks got Yi in a salary dump (Bobby Simmons’ – and the traded RJ a year later for expirings so it’s the same difference). The Magic got Vince Carter in a salary dump. The Nuggets got Chauncey Billups in a salary dump. The Celtics got Ray Allen in a salary dump. Should I go on?

Some included picks, some included a good young player or two. Some of these guys are young, some are older, but all are better than Driving While Nocioni.

Wanna add Baby in? fine. Wanna add a 1st in? Fine. But the Cs can find a player better than Andres Nocioni with an offer of a) expirings, and b) a willingness to take on a contract. Case in point: Monta Ellis. Watch how low the bidding will be when he asks for a trade, considering the lack of leverage and poor management in GS.

Lemme know if you 'get it' and i'll give you a TP!

[celts55]

well then you will see daniels to run the point the rest of the year when rondo isnt around, or eddie yuck 8 i hate the second idea.

Rondo   Daniels   Hudson
Ray     Eddie     Giddens  (switch daniels and Eddie when needed)
Pierce  Nocioni   Walker
KG      Sheed     BBD
Perk    Williams  A pupusa

No 18 is even closer ( come on that second unit is as good as Indianas starting lineup)

Not that it's a big deal, but Giddens is gone in this trade.

[celts55]

we need to use those expirings to get a blossoming player, not a fading one.

Here's the catch: You can't get one with expiring contracts only.

TP, looks like some people still don't get that. In addition, we are not looking for a guy who will be a starter or even a 6th man. What do people expect for the 7th or 8th man on the team? Who was our 7th man in 2008? In 86? Who was the 7th man on the 09 Lakers, or on any of the Spurs championship teams?

The Hornets got Okefor in a salary dump. The Bobcats got Stephan Jackson in a salary dump. The Lakers got Pau Gasol in a salary dump. The Kings got John Salmons in a salary dump (Brad Miller’s). The Spurs got Richard Jefferson in a salary dump. The Bucks got Yi in a salary dump (Bobby Simmons’ – and the traded RJ a year later for expirings so it’s the same difference). The Magic got Vince Carter in a salary dump. The Nuggets got Chauncey Billups in a salary dump. The Celtics got Ray Allen in a salary dump. Should I go on?

Some included picks, some included a good young player or two. Some of these guys are young, some are older, but all are better than Driving While Nocioni.

Wanna add Baby in? fine. Wanna add a 1st in? Fine. But the Cs can find a player better than Andres Nocioni with an offer of a) expirings, and b) a willingness to take on a contract. Case in point: Monta Ellis. Watch how low the bidding will be when he asks for a trade, considering the lack of leverage and poor management in GS.

Lemme know if you 'get it' and i'll give you a TP!

I get it.. Now give me my TP.

[hpantazo]

we need to use those expirings to get a blossoming player, not a fading one.

Here's the catch: You can't get one with expiring contracts only.

TP, looks like some people still don't get that. In addition, we are not looking for a guy who will be a starter or even a 6th man. What do people expect for the 7th or 8th man on the team? Who was our 7th man in 2008? In 86? Who was the 7th man on the 09 Lakers, or on any of the Spurs championship teams?

The Hornets got Okefor in a salary dump. The Bobcats got Stephan Jackson in a salary dump. The Lakers got Pau Gasol in a salary dump. The Kings got John Salmons in a salary dump (Brad Miller’s). The Spurs got Richard Jefferson in a salary dump. The Bucks got Yi in a salary dump (Bobby Simmons’ – and the traded RJ a year later for expirings so it’s the same difference). The Magic got Vince Carter in a salary dump. The Nuggets got Chauncey Billups in a salary dump. The Celtics got Ray Allen in a salary dump. Should I go on?

Some included picks, some included a good young player or two. Some of these guys are young, some are older, but all are better than Driving While Nocioni.

Wanna add Baby in? fine. Wanna add a 1st in? Fine. But the Cs can find a player better than Andres Nocioni with an offer of a) expirings, and b) a willingness to take on a contract. Case in point: Monta Ellis. Watch how low the bidding will be when he asks for a trade, considering the lack of leverage and poor management in GS.

Lemme know if you 'get it' and i'll give you a TP!

the only "blossoming" player in that list is Gasol, and it took a lot more salary than we have to "dump" along with a good young player, and was still a deal that should have been vetoed. You are talking about giving up trash (TA, Scal and Giddens) for a "blossoming young player" . Ain't going to happen. Maybe if you get it I'll give you a TP.

[Change]

Why can't get a young wing? Nocioni contract could cripple us. How about C.J. Miles? If Utah want to shed some salary, we can get CJ.

[nickagneta]

we need to use those expirings to get a blossoming player, not a fading one.

Here's the catch: You can't get one with expiring contracts only.

TP, looks like some people still don't get that. In addition, we are not looking for a guy who will be a starter or even a 6th man. What do people expect for the 7th or 8th man on the team? Who was our 7th man in 2008? In 86? Who was the 7th man on the 09 Lakers, or on any of the Spurs championship teams?

The Hornets got Okefor in a salary dump. The Bobcats got Stephan Jackson in a salary dump. The Lakers got Pau Gasol in a salary dump. The Kings got John Salmons in a salary dump (Brad Miller’s). The Spurs got Richard Jefferson in a salary dump. The Bucks got Yi in a salary dump (Bobby Simmons’ – and the traded RJ a year later for expirings so it’s the same difference). The Magic got Vince Carter in a salary dump. The Nuggets got Chauncey Billups in a salary dump. The Celtics got Ray Allen in a salary dump. Should I go on?

Some included picks, some included a good young player or two. Some of these guys are young, some are older, but all are better than Driving While Nocioni.

Wanna add Baby in? fine. Wanna add a 1st in? Fine. But the Cs can find a player better than Andres Nocioni with an offer of a) expirings, and b) a willingness to take on a contract. Case in point: Monta Ellis. Watch how low the bidding will be when he asks for a trade, considering the lack of leverage and poor management in GS.

Lemme know if you 'get it' and i'll give you a TP!

Didn't the Bobcats take on more salary each of the next two years and wasn't the Okafor deal just as much about new orleans dumping $1 million worth of salary this year to get closer to being under the luxury tax? The Bobcats got jackson in a player attitude dump. They were happy paying jackson as long as he was a happy camper, the problem was Jackson's attitude.

I take your point and agree that you can get great talent based solely on a salary dump. I do. I just hate to see you misrepresent facts to make a point. You had enough evidence already.

[Chris]

Why can't get a young wing? Nocioni contract could cripple us. How about C.J. Miles? If Utah want to shed some salary, we can get CJ.

First, Nocioni is much better than CJ Miles.  

But why would Utah give up CJ Miles for expiring contracts?  They can get more value for him, since he is not making much money, and still has potential as a young player.

BTW, it's not like Nocioni is old.  He doesn't turn 30 until the end of the month.  That is right in the middle of his prime.  There is a very good chance he will still be at the top of his game until the end of his contract.

[scoop]

Why can't get a young wing? Nocioni contract could cripple us. How about C.J. Miles? If Utah want to shed some salary, we can get CJ.

Jazz isn't in position to trade one of their wings right now. In any case, the problem is that CJ Miles contract is cost controlled and he's still young. Teams want to dump the contracts they don't want, not the good ones. Then the competition for young wings that can play is much bigger - there are lots of teams able to offer salary relief and then some.

[ssspence]

we need to use those expirings to get a blossoming player, not a fading one.

Here's the catch: You can't get one with expiring contracts only.

TP, looks like some people still don't get that. In addition, we are not looking for a guy who will be a starter or even a 6th man. What do people expect for the 7th or 8th man on the team? Who was our 7th man in 2008? In 86? Who was the 7th man on the 09 Lakers, or on any of the Spurs championship teams?

The Hornets got Okefor in a salary dump. The Bobcats got Stephan Jackson in a salary dump. The Lakers got Pau Gasol in a salary dump. The Kings got John Salmons in a salary dump (Brad Miller’s). The Spurs got Richard Jefferson in a salary dump. The Bucks got Yi in a salary dump (Bobby Simmons’ – and the traded RJ a year later for expirings so it’s the same difference). The Magic got Vince Carter in a salary dump. The Nuggets got Chauncey Billups in a salary dump. The Celtics got Ray Allen in a salary dump. Should I go on?

Some included picks, some included a good young player or two. Some of these guys are young, some are older, but all are better than Driving While Nocioni.

Wanna add Baby in? fine. Wanna add a 1st in? Fine. But the Cs can find a player better than Andres Nocioni with an offer of a) expirings, and b) a willingness to take on a contract. Case in point: Monta Ellis. Watch how low the bidding will be when he asks for a trade, considering the lack of leverage and poor management in GS.

Lemme know if you 'get it' and i'll give you a TP!

Didn't the Bobcats take on more salary each of the next two years and wasn't the Okafor deal just as much about new orleans dumping $1 million worth of salary this year to get closer to being under the luxury tax? The Bobcats got jackson in a player attitude dump. They were happy paying jackson as long as he was a happy camper, the problem was Jackson's attitude.

I take your point and agree that you can get great talent based solely on a salary dump. I do. I just hate to see you misrepresent facts to make a point. You had enough evidence already.

i'm sorry but you're missing the point -- i'm not representing anything about state of relations between player and team. who said anything about the players we get being happy where they were before.

was gasol happy? was salmons? was vince when he was dumped from toronto? they all complained about fit or happiness and got their wish. what did the team trading them take back? what did Golden State take back for Jackson? salary relief.

the state of the players attitude is besides the point. i'm talking about the mechanics of the trades themselves -- exiting problems via salary relief. how often do players who love their team, their coach and their city get traded? only one i can think of is wayne gretsky.

note the example i used of monta ellis. the bigger fish would be chris paul, which would likely take salary relief and rondo...

but the point remains the same. the Cs should hang on for better than Nocioni.