Author Topic: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : Team of the Future  (Read 675692 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2535 on: August 23, 2009, 08:40:24 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale


Breaking Down The Finals:

Portland Trailblazers (Edgar)- Shaquille O'Neal, Jermaine O'Neal, Rashard Lewis, Michael Redd, Mike Bibby, Manu Ginobili, Brad Miller, Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, Ronny Turiaf, Jrue Holiday, Quinton Ross, Jared Dudley, Fred Jones, Taj Gibson

Toronto Raptors (Rondo2287)-Andre Miller, Francisco Garcia, Ron Artest, Kevin Garnett, Marcus Camby, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Michael Finley, JJ Barea, Marco Belinelli, Hakim Warrick, Eric Maynor, Taylor Griffin

Center:

Shaquille O'Neal vs. Marcus Camby / Zydrunas Ilgauskas.  Regardless of which center Toronto starts, it's a mismatch in favor of Edgar.  Camby gives up 2 inches and over 100 pounds to Shaq; there's no way he can guard him one on one.  As for Big Z, there's a reason that Cleveland traded for Shaq and made him their starting center; the Diesel is simply better.  As for the thought that Shaq can't guard Big Z on the perimeter, that's a fallacy; since the 2007 season, Shaq and Z have matched up eight times.  In five of those, Shaq has held him to single digits.  Advantage:  Edgar

Power forward:

Rashard Lewis vs. Kevin Garnett.  Yes, I'm predicting that Edgar starts Rashard Lewis.  Very few people on the blog like KG more than me.  However, as great as KG is, there's one player he struggles with, and that's Rashard.  In the last seven meetings between the two players, Rashard has averaged 23.6 points per game, as opposed to 14.9 for Garnett; only once in those games has KG outscored Rashard, and Rashard has scored 30+ points twice.  These aren't empty stats, either; in games where they've gone head-to-head in Boston, Rashard holds a 3-2 edge in terms of victories.  Garnett is the better player, but maybe no other player in the league is as hard for him to handle as Rashard Lewis.  Advantage:  Push (although the stats give this one to Edgar)

Small forward:

Michael Redd vs. Ron Artest.  It would also make sense for Edgar to move Manu Ginobili into the starting lineup.  I'm predicting he moves Redd to small forward (for reasons explained below), but Manu can play here, as well.  In fact, for anybody suggesting that this gives Artest a height advantage, that's simply not true; all three players are 6'6", and Redd has a speed advantage over Artest.

How do Redd and Artest match up?  Redd has outscored him the last six times they've played.  In those six games, Redd has gone for 24+ in five of them (and 20 in the other).  Artest has scored 11 or fewer points in three of those six games.  Advantage:  Edgar

Shooting guard:

Manu Ginobili vs. Francisco Garcia / Michael Finley.  Obviously, if Ginobili is matched up on Finley, head-to-head matchups aren't going to help us at all.  However, it should be clear who the better player is.  Finley is a shell of his former self.  He's still a good shooter, but that's all he brings to an offense; 90% of his shots are jumpers, the vast majority of which come from spot ups.  Manu is younger, quicker, a better penetrator, a better defender, and a better passer.  In a down season, Manu still averaged significantly more points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and free throw attempts per game than Finley did.

As for Garcia, the same thing is true.  Even though Garcia averaged more minutes per game, Ginobili had more points, rebounds, assists, steals, and free throw attempts, with Ginobili averaging fewer personal fouls and a higher eFG%.  Advantage:  Edgar

Point guard:

Mike Bibby vs. Andre Miller.  Over the course of their careers, this matchup has been fairly even, with Bibby scoring slightly more points, and Miller averaging slightly more assists.  Both have shot around 40% overall, with Bibby being the much better three point shooter (35.5% against Miller in their careers, vs. 15.0% for Miller).  Last season, Miller very slightly got the better of this matchup, with the two players averaging the same number of points (16.0), while Miller led in assists; each had one atrocious game against the other.  Advantage:  Toronto (slightly)

Bench:

Jermaine O'Neal, Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, Brad Miller, Ronny Turiaf vs. Hakim Warrick, Marcus Camby, Francisco Garcia, Marco Bellinelli, J.J. Barea.  I think the backup big men of Miller and J.O. trump Camby and Warrick, by a fairly large margin.  Delonte is the best backcourt player on either bench, and Gomes is a matchup problem for Toronto.  Toronto does have one of the better benches in the league, but Portland's is still better.  Advantage:  Edgar

Intangibles

Toronto is starting four guys who are 33 and older, and their sixth man falls into that category, as well.  Portland has one starter (and two players total) who are 33+.  No team has ever won a championship with more than three starters age 33+; the one that came closest was helmed by a "big three" of Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, and Dennis Rodman (Pipper was 32, however).  As strange as it is to say, Portland has a major youth advantage here.  Advantage:  Edgar

Game plan

Portland's versatility should give them a big advantage here.  While many teams have two bigs that play in the post -- making Portland hesitant to start Rashard Lewis -- all three of Toronto's bigs prefer to play away from the basket.  Also, neither Finley nor Artest is a great penetrator at this stage in their career; Finley shoots 90% of his shots from outside, and Artest had one of the lowest shooting percentages on two-pointers in the entire league (only 34.3%).  That means that Portland can get away with only Shaq defending the paint.  While Andre Miller has the ability to drive, he is a poor perimeter shooter, meaning his man will be able to sag off him.  Also, due to Finley's status as a spot-up shooter, Portland will be able to switch coverages from time to time, asking Bibby to cover Finley in short stretches while Manu moves over to stop Miller's penetration.

On the other end, Rashard draws KG away from the hoop, leaving Shaq one-on-one with Big Z in the post.  That's not a good matchup for Toronto.  KG's great interior defense is mitigated, while Rashard is likely to continue to have success scoring on KG, as noted above.  With Big Z as the only big in the paint, Redd and Manu are likely to continuing drive; if Big Z moves over to prevent a drive, Redd/Manu will simply dish to Shaq.  While Camby could help shut down some of this penetration, he simply can't guard Shaq without help, meaning Toronto can either concede the matchup, or double Shaq leaving one of Portland's four perimeter shooters open.  Bibby will be asked to do little more than get the offense set and then hit open jumpers.

Just looking at how the two rosters are structured, I don't think Toronto can win over a seven game series.  Yes, I'm biased, as I helped put this team together, and am essentially Edgar's spokesman.  Still, I can't see this series going any other way.

Prediction:  Edgar in six.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 12:18:44 AM by Roy Hobbs »

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2536 on: August 23, 2009, 11:11:20 AM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48121
  • Tommy Points: 8800
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
Breaking Down The Finals:

Portland Trailblazers (Edgar)- Shaquille O'Neal, Jermaine O'Neal, Rashard Lewis, Michael Redd, Mike Bibby, Manu Ginobili, Brad Miller, Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, Ronny Turiaf, Jrue Holiday, Quinton Ross, Jared Dudley, Fred Jones, Taj Gibson

Toronto Raptors (Rondo2287)-Andre Miller, Francisco Garcia, Ron Artest, Kevin Garnett, Marcus Camby, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Michael Finley, JJ Barea, Marco Belinelli, Hakim Warrick, Eric Maynor, Taylor Griffin

When all this started, the CB NBA playoffs that is, after the draft and trading periods were complete, to be honest, I gave a quick perusal of the team rosters and thought to myself that the best two teams in each conference were Portland and Toronto. That said, I didn't know for sure that both teams would make the CB Finals as there were definitely teams in each conference that matched up well with Portland and Toronto. Either or both teams could very well run into one of those bad match ups and lost.

But they didn't. So, here we are a couple weeks later and the true drama, the Finals, is upon us all. So, which team is going to win? Well, here's one GM's view of things, for what it's worth.

First, let me say some of the things I don't think either GM(s) wants you to hear:

Portland: I don't care what the GM(s) in Portland say they have 4 centers playing the center and power forward positions. They have two PFs playing at the SF position, one, a horrible rebounding PF starting at SF, and the other, a very undersized and not very athletic PF backing him up. Both their rotational playing SG are coming of injury riddled years and their starting PG can't guard a chair and his backup is more of a combo guard.

Toronto: They are old, and not just a little bit. Assuming these Finals are taking place in June of 2010, that would put the average age of Toronto's top 7 players as 33.4 years old. Experience helps to win championships. Age that effects play, does not assist in winning championships. Also, their bench is not very deep nor does it have a myriad of skills in the players that would be seeing the court in a playoff rotation. None of the four rotational bench players are good defenders and their offensive games, while effective as starters, are inefficient as bench players.


Now, let me say some of the things that I do think those GMs want you to hear:

Portland - they have great depth and great experience and great leadership. In Shaq and Manu, they have players who have won it all multiple times and know what it takes to make that smallest of differences between being a champion and an also ran. The skill set of the bench is the best in the league. The have shooting, deep shooting, defense, shot blocking, rebounding, instant offense, a defined sixth man, grittiness, a mean streak and not a tremendous drop off in talent from their starters to their bench players. If they stay healthy this should be a well rested bunch come playoff time.

Toronto - they have one of the top three best defensive front courts in the league, if not the best. Their fit and chemistry in the starting five is, in my opinion, also one of the best in the league. They appear to very defined roles and as long as each player plays within himself, this doesn't appear a team that will give up easy or beat itself. Their bench player will definitely be able to score as long as they are not put in as an entire unit. They also have great leadership on this team as well.


I'm not going to go into the individual match ups. I'll leave that to others and I'm sure that, if you like that type of stuff, you are sure to get your fill on that. But if these two teams did exist and met against each other in a seven game series I would have to pick...........the team with home court advantage to win it all. It is that close and I think the HCA makes the difference, ultimately. But who has the home court advantage. Well, to find out my opinion on that, you are just going to have to wait for me to cast my vote!!!

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2537 on: August 23, 2009, 12:17:22 PM »

Offline Edgar

  • Kevin McHale
  • ************************
  • Posts: 24646
  • Tommy Points: 445
  • No contaban con mi astucia !!!
your new signature is AWESOME!!

And definetly
Manu and Shard will be starting this series
I want some Shard poison on KG
Shaq will eat Z alive.
Once a CrotorNat always a CROTORNAT  2 times CB draft Champion 2009-2012

Nice to be back!

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2538 on: August 24, 2009, 12:17:32 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
Voting is open; to anybody who was linked here from the front page, please join in below.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2539 on: August 24, 2009, 12:22:27 AM »

Offline KCattheStripe

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10726
  • Tommy Points: 830
Portland has too many weapons for Toronto to handle. This BIG Z line up with KG makes no sense to me, why can't KG guard Shaq and Camby go out and guard Rashard? The current line up offers little help defensively and makes a bad offensive team worse, this is the series that Toronto's lack of a consistent bright lights scorer comes back to bite them.

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2540 on: August 24, 2009, 12:28:35 AM »

Offline Edgar

  • Kevin McHale
  • ************************
  • Posts: 24646
  • Tommy Points: 445
  • No contaban con mi astucia !!!
Portland has too many weapons for Toronto to handle. This BIG Z line up with KG makes no sense to me, why can't KG guard Shaq and Camby go out and guard Rashard? The current line up offers little help defensively and makes a bad offensive team worse, this is the series that Toronto's lack of a consistent bright lights scorer comes back to bite them.

thanks KC we think the same
We are pretty confident starting shard and Manu too.
JO will be our little weapon off the bench
and Miller  and turiaf will make life imposible for camby with their trademark naughty style
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 12:36:01 AM by Edgar »
Once a CrotorNat always a CROTORNAT  2 times CB draft Champion 2009-2012

Nice to be back!

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2541 on: August 24, 2009, 12:47:15 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42585
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
I would say KG should be put on Rashard, he's one of the few guys that can stop him. However, that said, one of the other guys is Ron Artest.

I like Toronto's starting lineup against Portland here. I wonder how the bench scenario works out..more post reading needed.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2542 on: August 24, 2009, 12:48:32 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
I would say KG should be put on Rashard, he's one of the few guys that can stop him.

Can KG stop him?  He hasn't done so any time recently.  Rashard has been winning the battle both statistically, and in terms of team victories.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2543 on: August 24, 2009, 12:50:21 AM »

Offline Edgar

  • Kevin McHale
  • ************************
  • Posts: 24646
  • Tommy Points: 445
  • No contaban con mi astucia !!!
I would say KG should be put on Rashard, he's one of the few guys that can stop him. However, that said, one of the other guys is Ron Artest.

I like Toronto's starting lineup against Portland here. I wonder how the bench scenario works out..more post reading needed.

The bench is where we are stronger now

Brad Miller, Jermaine Oneal, Turiaf , Gomes and Delonte
for starts gives Toronto bigs a nightmare night
to fight for every single ball.
And with delonte we can still bring 3s and hustle against smaller guys and to anoy the hell out of miller.

U all know i love andre millerm but you all know i love delonte
more. ;D
Once a CrotorNat always a CROTORNAT  2 times CB draft Champion 2009-2012

Nice to be back!

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2544 on: August 24, 2009, 12:57:53 AM »

Offline RebusRankin

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9143
  • Tommy Points: 923
I would say KG should be put on Rashard, he's one of the few guys that can stop him.

Can KG stop him?  He hasn't done so any time recently.  Rashard has been winning the battle both statistically, and in terms of team victories.

not entirely true actually. Lewis did play well in the two games against Boston where we had KG but Orlando lost both games by double digits.

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2545 on: August 24, 2009, 01:00:33 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42585
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
So Roy...if I went through all your posts would I find one saying that KG is the guy we needed this past playoffs not in general, but specifically to defend Rashard Lewis, because he's one of the few people capable of doing that?

Because I'm pretty sure I could find that exact post.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2546 on: August 24, 2009, 01:03:06 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
I would say KG should be put on Rashard, he's one of the few guys that can stop him.

Can KG stop him?  He hasn't done so any time recently.  Rashard has been winning the battle both statistically, and in terms of team victories.

not entirely true actually. Lewis did play well in the two games against Boston where we had KG but Orlando lost both games by double digits.

Overall, KG has matched up against Orlando (and Rashard Lewis) as a Celtic five times.  He's lost three of those games.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2547 on: August 24, 2009, 01:04:23 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
So Roy...if I went through all your posts would I find one saying that KG is the guy we needed this past playoffs not in general, but specifically to defend Rashard Lewis, because he's one of the few people capable of doing that?

Because I'm pretty sure I could find that exact post.

Well, he certainly is more useful than Brian Scalabrine attempting to stop Rashard.  But yeah, I can't really explain it, other than Rashard has KG's number; he just plays exceptionally well against him (much like T.J. Ford against Rondo.)

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2548 on: August 24, 2009, 01:07:11 AM »

Offline Edgar

  • Kevin McHale
  • ************************
  • Posts: 24646
  • Tommy Points: 445
  • No contaban con mi astucia !!!
Dont overlook the fact that Portland bench is still the best in the league.
We are more reste
and we are deeper, that counts after a lot of looooong series for toronto and short series for portland
Once a CrotorNat always a CROTORNAT  2 times CB draft Champion 2009-2012

Nice to be back!

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : The Finals!!
« Reply #2549 on: August 24, 2009, 01:12:23 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
Dont overlook the fact that Portland bench is still the best in the league.
We are more reste
and we are deeper, that counts after a lot of looooong series for toronto and short series for portland

You forgot:

1) More battle-tested and experienced top-to-bottom; and

2) Younger (surprisingly).

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions