Official:-Spears Confirms Marquis coming to Boston (merged)

[KungPoweChicken]

I really don't consider Daniels to be better than a healthy and fully integrated Tony Allen, but we shall see.

[crownsy]

I really don't consider Daniels to be better than a healthy and fully integrated Tony Allen, but we shall see.

then we have to agree to disagree, tony is a awful basketball player. i can't really imagine many worse shooting guards in the league.

If nothing else at least Daniels has the size to be a back up 3, something tony has never been able to do due to his size.

[Mr October]

According to Chad Ford, the Celtics are trading Walker, Pruitt, and Allen.  Ouch.  Hope we are getting another young player in return besides Daniels.

Ouch for the Pacers?

that was my thought as well, We're trading 2 serviceable at best rotation players and a kid who's only accomplishments so far include "i can dunk real good"

for a proven backup at two positions we desperately need. Anything else for that deal would be pure gravy from the celtics standpoint.

this is so funny! since when is daniels anything more than a serviceable rotation guy?? he's a poor outside shooter and an average, at best, defender. what we need is a big wing who can shoot and play above average perimeter d. he does neither of those well.

not saying TA is great at either of those things, but he is AT LEAST as good as daniels by himself...and they're both injury risks. then we have to throw in two good young players to boot?? doesn't make sense.

you can downplay it all you want, but if you dont think walker showed real promise in the VERY limited minutes he got as a rook, you need to reevaluate your player evaluation

i think people are overvaluing  daniels because of the one good season he had during a year which dallas was on tv every other night. go look at his career stats vs. TA...pretty much the same guy, except no one has ever questioned TA's effort on the court.

in the end, i am all for a daniels signing or a sign and trade with TA and pruitt, but throwing in walker or giddens is too much.

Daniels is a glue guy. He can handle, score, defend at a decent level - and he finds himself in the right place at the right time on the court a lot. I love the idea of having a glue player like that.

The C's have enough shooters around him. Tony Allen is a turnover machine on offense, gambles too much on defense, and is too small / turnover prone to be an effective slasher.

[guava_wrench]

According to Chad Ford, the Celtics are trading Walker, Pruitt, and Allen.  Ouch.  Hope we are getting another young player in return besides Daniels.

Ouch for the Pacers?

that was my thought as well, We're trading 2 serviceable at best rotation players and a kid who's only accomplishments so far include "i can dunk real good"

for a proven backup at two positions we desperately need. Anything else for that deal would be pure gravy from the celtics standpoint.

this is so funny! since when is daniels anything more than a serviceable rotation guy?? he's a poor outside shooter and an average, at best, defender. what we need is a big wing who can shoot and play above average perimeter d. he does neither of those well.

not saying TA is great at either of those things, but he is AT LEAST as good as daniels by himself...and they're both injury risks. then we have to throw in two good young players to boot?? doesn't make sense.

you can downplay it all you want, but if you dont think walker showed real promise in the VERY limited minutes he got as a rook, you need to reevaluate your player evaluation

i think people are overvaluing  daniels because of the one good season he had during a year which dallas was on tv every other night. go look at his career stats vs. TA...pretty much the same guy, except no one has ever questioned TA's effort on the court.

in the end, i am all for a daniels signing or a sign and trade with TA and pruitt, but throwing in walker or giddens is too much.

There are a few major problems with you complaints.

1 - Does Pruitt have any value above matching contracts? He will likely be cut before his contract is guaranteed. We lose nothing trading him.
2 - TA is wasted money at the moment - 5 million worth of money with luxury tax. We should be grateful someone is willing to take him off our hands.
3 - Walker has yet to prove anything except his exceptional athleticism.

In effect, Walker might be the only positive asset in this deal, and we manage to get TA's contract off the books.

We can easily pick up min contract guys who would be as useful as Pruitt and TA short or long term. Only in Walker are we giving up anything.

[libermaniac]

I don't understand how a lot of people here are so quick to package Walker in a deal and keep Giddens. We haven't even seen Giddens play any real NBA minutes. Oops, sorry, he's played a total of 8 minutes in 6 total NBA games. How is this guy ahead of Walker again?

I know the front office (Danny?) has stated Giddens is now at the same level as Walker, but is he really? Even if this is the case, what makes you so sure Giddens is the guy we want to keep? From what I've seen of both player, I personally don't think Giddens has that fearless killer instinct attitude that Walker has. If you're a young player on this team -- you have to have that type of attitude. I'm not sure Giddens has it yet, and I don't see how he could all of a sudden get it over the summer.

As a New Mexico Lobo fan, I was/am a huge JR fan, but I agree that last year, that killer instinct/confidence that he displayed in college was not there.  But, if he does get that confidence going, he just has much better all-around skills than Walker.  Walker doesn't appear to have any offensive moves with the ball in his hands.  Giddens, on the other hand, can create his own shot, can get to the line (although when he gets there he's a huge liability), can pass the ball, can rebound and can defend.  But, let's face it - as much as I'd like to say Giddens and/or Walker will develop into stars someday, they are very likely to have a ceiling of a 6th/7th man at best, so it doesn't really matter who they ship out, if they do.

[crownsy]

I don't understand how a lot of people here are so quick to package Walker in a deal and keep Giddens. We haven't even seen Giddens play any real NBA minutes. Oops, sorry, he's played a total of 8 minutes in 6 total NBA games. How is this guy ahead of Walker again?

I know the front office (Danny?) has stated Giddens is now at the same level as Walker, but is he really? Even if this is the case, what makes you so sure Giddens is the guy we want to keep? From what I've seen of both player, I personally don't think Giddens has that fearless killer instinct attitude that Walker has. If you're a young player on this team -- you have to have that type of attitude. I'm not sure Giddens has it yet, and I don't see how he could all of a sudden get it over the summer.

But, let's face it - as much as I'd like to say Giddens and/or Walker will develop into stars someday, they are very likely to have a ceiling of a 6th/7th man at best, so it doesn't really matter who they ship out, if they do.

TP for taking the rational view. I know we all fall in love with Celtics players, but they are both pretty much second round picks with upside. 

[meesho33]

According to Chad Ford, the Celtics are trading Walker, Pruitt, and Allen.  Ouch.  Hope we are getting another young player in return besides Daniels.

Ouch for the Pacers?

that was my thought as well, We're trading 2 serviceable at best rotation players and a kid who's only accomplishments so far include "i can dunk real good"

for a proven backup at two positions we desperately need. Anything else for that deal would be pure gravy from the celtics standpoint.

this is so funny! since when is daniels anything more than a serviceable rotation guy?? he's a poor outside shooter and an average, at best, defender. what we need is a big wing who can shoot and play above average perimeter d. he does neither of those well.

not saying TA is great at either of those things, but he is AT LEAST as good as daniels by himself...and they're both injury risks. then we have to throw in two good young players to boot?? doesn't make sense.

you can downplay it all you want, but if you dont think walker showed real promise in the VERY limited minutes he got as a rook, you need to reevaluate your player evaluation

i think people are overvaluing  daniels because of the one good season he had during a year which dallas was on tv every other night. go look at his career stats vs. TA...pretty much the same guy, except no one has ever questioned TA's effort on the court.

in the end, i am all for a daniels signing or a sign and trade with TA and pruitt, but throwing in walker or giddens is too much.

Daniels is a glue guy. He can handle, score, defend at a decent level - and he finds himself in the right place at the right time on the court a lot. I love the idea of having a glue player like that.

The C's have enough shooters around him. Tony Allen is a turnover machine on offense, gambles too much on defense, and is too small / turnover prone to be an effective slasher.

good point on daniels, he brings a level of intangibles to the court that cannot be measured. i like the move for that reason. just dont think we should have to include walker ++ to get it done.

if TA is anything at all, its an effective slasher. and, just for the record, daniels is just as turnover prone as TA. TA's are just uglier because of his bad handle.

[meesho33]

According to Chad Ford, the Celtics are trading Walker, Pruitt, and Allen.  Ouch.  Hope we are getting another young player in return besides Daniels.

Ouch for the Pacers?

that was my thought as well, We're trading 2 serviceable at best rotation players and a kid who's only accomplishments so far include "i can dunk real good"

for a proven backup at two positions we desperately need. Anything else for that deal would be pure gravy from the celtics standpoint.

this is so funny! since when is daniels anything more than a serviceable rotation guy?? he's a poor outside shooter and an average, at best, defender. what we need is a big wing who can shoot and play above average perimeter d. he does neither of those well.

not saying TA is great at either of those things, but he is AT LEAST as good as daniels by himself...and they're both injury risks. then we have to throw in two good young players to boot?? doesn't make sense.

you can downplay it all you want, but if you dont think walker showed real promise in the VERY limited minutes he got as a rook, you need to reevaluate your player evaluation

i think people are overvaluing  daniels because of the one good season he had during a year which dallas was on tv every other night. go look at his career stats vs. TA...pretty much the same guy, except no one has ever questioned TA's effort on the court.

in the end, i am all for a daniels signing or a sign and trade with TA and pruitt, but throwing in walker or giddens is too much.

There are a few major problems with you complaints.

1 - Does Pruitt have any value above matching contracts? He will likely be cut before his contract is guaranteed. We lose nothing trading him.
2 - TA is wasted money at the moment - 5 million worth of money with luxury tax. We should be grateful someone is willing to take him off our hands.
3 - Walker has yet to prove anything except his exceptional athleticism.

In effect, Walker might be the only positive asset in this deal, and we manage to get TA's contract off the books.

We can easily pick up min contract guys who would be as useful as Pruitt and TA short or long term. Only in Walker are we giving up anything.

guava,

1. i said in my post that i have no issue shipping pruitt out.

2. i also said i dont mind shipping TA out in this deal. plus, we arent getting under the cap with this move (are we?) so daniels salary will have tax implications too.

3. i think walker has talent and athleticism, and shouldn't need to be thrown into this deal.

might want to actually read a post.

[meesho33]

According to Chad Ford, the Celtics are trading Walker, Pruitt, and Allen.  Ouch.  Hope we are getting another young player in return besides Daniels.

Ouch for the Pacers?

that was my thought as well, We're trading 2 serviceable at best rotation players and a kid who's only accomplishments so far include "i can dunk real good"

for a proven backup at two positions we desperately need. Anything else for that deal would be pure gravy from the celtics standpoint.

this is so funny! since when is daniels anything more than a serviceable rotation guy?? he's a poor outside shooter and an average, at best, defender. what we need is a big wing who can shoot and play above average perimeter d. he does neither of those well.

not saying TA is great at either of those things, but he is AT LEAST as good as daniels by himself...and they're both injury risks. then we have to throw in two good young players to boot?? doesn't make sense.

you can downplay it all you want, but if you dont think walker showed real promise in the VERY limited minutes he got as a rook, you need to reevaluate your player evaluation

i think people are overvaluing  daniels because of the one good season he had during a year which dallas was on tv every other night. go look at his career stats vs. TA...pretty much the same guy, except no one has ever questioned TA's effort on the court.

in the end, i am all for a daniels signing or a sign and trade with TA and pruitt, but throwing in walker or giddens is too much.

you seriously overrate tony allen if you believe this is true.

and what did walker show? that he can do flashy dunks. weeeeee.

 so did gerald green and tony allen when they first started, and i had to be subjected to how they are the second coming despite their obvious flaws. How's that working out for the two of them?

I saw walker, he looks like a good slasher, he can dunk really, really well.

but what i also saw in his limited minutes was that he had no clue what to do once the defense went to rotate. when he was one on one with his man, he was decent. the minute his man went in motion and switches were involved, he was in trouble.

He also had limited handle, and shot poorly, when he bothered to take a jumper.

i never said walker is the second coming, nor green, nor TA. dont paint me with a broad stroke because others have said things like that. its a weak tactic.

youre right though, he has a long way to go and he didnt look very polished. i just think he showed flashes last year that he can get to the hoop and finish. that combined with watching him play in college and his fiery attitude make him someone i'd rather not include in this deal - esp after we already are giving up two players.

TA has been solid for us when healthy, people seem to have a healthy dislike for him on this site.

[crownsy]

because it isn't true that he's been solid when healthy, people have brought out mountains of evidence, both statistical and just commenting on his play, and yet we're still always told that

"once he's fully healthy, you'll see. you just don't like him"

which isn't true. i don't know TA personal, i have no reason to dislike him. but if your asking me to put on some sort of facade that he's a competent basketball player because the front of his jersey says "Celtics" your out of luck with me.

TA is what he is. a train wreck of a basketball player who is/was very athletic, and thus can at times finish at the rim for you and keep a man in front of him.

However, he has zero basketball IQ, which leads to his astronomical turnover rate, both per minute played and when averaged out over 48. He can't shoot, from mid range or otherwise, which hurts his offense. He has the worst handles of any guard on the team. He makes silly fouls an art form, his specialty being fouling the three point shooter late after recovering off a screen. He can't pas, because he keeps his head down when he dribbles in traffic (product of his bad handle)

Tony is a good athlete, but a bad basketball player. Marquis is a huge upgrade over him as the backup 2 and 3 for the simple reason that i know marquis has a basketball IQ, can pass, and can shoot the midrange as well as finsh at the rim.

That's not to say that marquis is some huge talent were getting, but he is far better than tony allen.

Alot of guys in the NBA have freakish athletic skills. Those guys are a dime a dozen.

Guys like marquis, who may not be stars, but know thier role and accept it, are not. He'll be a fine backup 3, and hopefully TA will either be relegated to the end of the bench or gone in part of the deal.

As to walker, my point was, what did you see in his limited minutes that led to your staunch defense of him? you all but agreed he impressed you with his athleticism and little else.
That's all i was saying on the subject. He may turn out to be a gem, he may turn out to be TA 2.0, i don't know or care.

What i do know is daniels solves a need this team has in a short window. If getting him takes JR or walker, fine. IF it doesn't, even better. But the potential of either player, both of whom couldn't crack the rotation last year, is a foolish thing to hang this deal up on.

[cornbreadsmart]

does anyone think t.j. for is a realistic possibility?

[Drucci]

Just came back from a 3 days trip to Rome. When I checked the news this morning I was thinking "[dang], we got screwed again" since all the ESPN news were about Moon to Cleveland and Barnes to Orlando... but the Daniels acquisition is a good one for us.

I've rarely seen him play but I liked him the few times I saw him with the Pacers. It seems like he will be a great fit in Beantown and a good backup for Pierce, which is what we've been desperately looking for since Posey's left town. I'm a little concerned about the fact that Daniels can't shoot the three (23% for his career ) but from what I've read he is a good defender, can handle the ball and a good slasher so I'm starting to get excited about the guy.

Hopefully we can get him in a sign and trade which would allow us to get ride of T.A and one of our "prospects" player (I'd like to keep Walker). If Scal has to go let him go but maybe we could resign him after he gets a buyout.

Anyway if we can open some roster spots while acquiring Daniels, I think we can say that Danny has done a good job so far (Sheed + Daniels + BBD - hopefully he resigns with us - + open roster spots to fill in).

[P2]

When will this saga end? I want the deal to be official and Daniels to become a Celtic finally. First the Sheed situation, then Hill, now this. The wait is killing me. When is this situation going to be figured out?

[byennie]

because it isn't true that he's been solid when healthy, people have brought out mountains of evidence, both statistical and just commenting on his play

Oh, come on. Certainly there is room for disagreement, but it is far from a statistical fact that Tony Allen is terrible when healthy. In his last healthy season, his PER was 17+. His true shooting percentage was nearly 60%, he got to the line, he was a good rebounder for a SG, he blocked shots, got steals, finished on the break, and generally was a strong defender. He hasn't been the same the last 2 years since the injury. I'm not saying he was ever an All-Star, or a multifaceted player, but he did at least a few things well enough to be a contributor on a good team. (NOTE: I'm not saying the Celts were a good team in 2006-07 of course, but Tony Allen from that year could contribute on just about any NBA team- at least off the bench).

TA is what he is. a train wreck of a basketball player who is/was very athletic, and thus can at times finish at the rim for you and keep a man in front of him.

He's not a train wreck. There are far worse players. Yes, he is one of the worst when it comes to turnovers. Yes, he has made some bonehead fouls, but he's also had a far more positive impact on defense than someone who "intelligently" watches his man beat him to the hoop. There are plenty of players who have at least one major weakness in their game but are still vital role players.

I'm not saying I want him starting for a contender, or even that he's better than Daniels (he's not, I agree), but he still has at least as much value as some of the "high IQ" players in the league that couldn't defend a fly nor get to the rim. Sometimes the "lack of fundamentals" / "low IQ" arguments get carried away.

Really, I'm not even a huge fan... I hate all of those head-down turnovers, but realistically the guy just ain't that bad overall.

[crownsy]

He's not a train wreck. There are far worse players.

mind naming the guards who are worse than him and are expected to contribute meaningful minutes on a contender?

Certainly there is room for disagreement, but it is far from a statistical fact that Tony Allen is terrible when healthy. In his last healthy season, his PER was 17+. His true shooting percentage was nearly 60%, he got to the line, he was a good rebounder for a SG, he blocked shots, got steals, finished on the break, and generally was a strong defender. He hasn't been the same the last 2 years since the injury.

i disagree with pretty much all of that, and don't get me started on per, but even setting that aside, as you note, the injury was two years ago. When is tony going to have this mythical "healthy" season? when he's 29? 30?

I offered the TA supporters that i would wipe the slate clean and only judge him on last year alone, since they assured me now that he was completely healthy, he was going to be mid season 2006 TA again off the bench and blow my socks off. He failed utterly at it,  before re injuring himself.

Yet now im told last season doesn't count either, by some here, due to anything from injury to rivers playing him out of position, to whatever else you want to name as his excuse.

TA has more get out of jail free cards than any bad bench player ive ever seen with some corners of the celtics fan base, and i cant for the life of me figure out why.