More on Leon...

[expobear]

Who knows what players. Already told you what type of players should we be looking for, go and look at a list of free-agents and see who are available.

We have the MLE, LLE, and minimum contracts. Looking at the market at the moment, I say plenty of players should be available for cheap.

If they don't come, they don't come. But until this alternatives and options are explored and exhausted, wasting a roster spot on an injured player is a bad basketball decision.

This decision is pretty much about money.  The 15th spot on the team is not going to go to anybody who is going to help the Celtics win a championship, no matter how long the Celtics wait, no matter how many deals are made, bottom line.  Powe however, is a proven commodity that can be of service to the Celtics, and if they're contending for a championship again, I'd rather have the option of going to Powe, despite the low probability of him coming back versus the zero probability of a 15th man helping the Celtics in a championship run. It's only going to cost 1.6MM?  Chump change for the Celtics and with all the negative PR, bad, bad business decision.

Not much bad PR, as it isn't a big deal to the average fan.

Fans calling money the owners are spending 'chump change' is hard to take seriously. Chump change when it is other people's money. The owners are willing to spend 1.6m x 2 (luxury tax) but not on charity.

The 15th man argument is irrelevant, since there are already people on the roster with guaranteed contracts who are at the end of the bench (Walker, Giddens). This 15th man line of reasoning goes nowhere and is unproductive. A roster spot is a roster spot.

Why are you insisting that the Celtics offer Powe a contract now? Do you at least agree that not extending a qualifying offer was the correct move considering luxury tax implications? Are you saying they then should have signed him to a vet min contract?

Yes they should have offered a min vet contract.  As far as negative PR, we'll see how that goes, but I doubt there are too many players out there who have stirred up the fanbase as much as Leon Powe when he was basically shown the door by the Celtics.  You're probably right that any fan protestatons won't amount to much and besides, Leon is gone anyway. 

[winsomme]

just in addition, Bud, you mentioned that you think the Powe supporters under value trade chips, but I think you and the "don't sign Leon" contingent undervalue how good Leon actually is..

like a poster just mentioned, there is a strong possibility that Leon signs elsewhere.

And that is the gist of the whole argument.  How good is Leon Powe?  The Powe supporters think Powe is a very good player with the potential to be a starter capable of putting up a double double every night.  The Powe doubters which includes management see Powe as a hard worker but nothing more than a 15 minute backup sub. My contention has always been that management didn't really see Powe as having much potential. Even if Powe had stayed healthy, I doubt the Celtics were going to keep him if other teams had expressed interest in him.  So, if no teams are interested in an injured Leon, the Celtics may offer a contract, if his knee recovers fully.  Yeah, it's business and it sucks, especially after Leon has really given more to the Celtics than the Celtics ever envisioned when signing him to minimum entry level contracts.

Is that why Doc told Leon that he was going to do everything he could to keep him around?

as for what the pro-Leon people think of him as a player, I can only speak for myself. and I don't think of him as a 20/10 player. I think of him as a PERFECT bench/energy big on a championship caliber team...

he's capable of dropping a 20/10 game here and there, but the one thing he will always do is fight for every rebound. the guy just produces and i think the front office would be taking a very low risk in bringing him back into the fold on the chance that he returns to that player.

Actually, I think Powe can be a 20/10 guy, not just a double double guy, with another team, but perhaps not with the Celtics.  How much value does management place in a high energy player coming off the bench?  Apparently with Powe....not much. As far as Rivers' take on Powe, I think he admires Powe's character and work ethic but still doesn't trust him enough to start him or give him extended minutes. I think this is why Powe was sent packing.....good energy guy off the bench but not good enough to be a starter that's now coming off a career threatening injury.  Management is rolling the dice that nobody will be interested and they can get Powe back after their roster has somewhat been settled. To them,it's a minimal risk but I do think it may come back to haunt them.

I basically agree with you here. If Leon was on MEM for instance, he could have been putting up stats that he wouldn't here. not sure about 20/10, but solid numbers for sure.

and I agree that there is minimal risk is signing Leon right now.  I really wish they would rethink this decision.

[BballTim]

No. You're missing the point completely. It's not important at this moment with whom exactly we fill the roster. The point is that it's the scenario Danny should shoot for, and if he signs Powe he can no longer do it. Until that scenario is exhausted, and other similar to it, Powe has no business in our roster.

Again, there are plenty of players out there available for cheap. Many of them you and I know little about at the moment or have out dated data, so again, speculating on who specificically can fill them is rather pointless and not worth the time.

Baby
Sheed
Backup PG (this is a given, whomever it is)

Two spots left. Danny has expressed interest on a veteran backup wing. Who it is? Who knows, but it is something he has to explore.

Again, we're full at the PF position in this scenario, and a backup center would be of more use to us. Who would it be? Who the heck knows. But until Danny explores the options and try to get someone healthy on here that can play, having Powe is not in our best interest...not even close.

And who says we need to fill the last roster spot at the moment? I see little value in having Powe because again, we would be deep in the PF position. If healthy, the only interest I would have in keeping both Powe and Baby would be to trade one of them. That Powe is injured makes the decision of keeping one of them much easier.

I don't think I'll make more responses regarding this matter... we're going in circles and it's a bit annoying.

well I'll leave it at this. I think if you try and come up with a potential scenario where Scals is the 15th roster spot, I think you'll see that it really isn't that realistic...

what is much more plausible is the 15th roster spot is going to go to some signee who will be sitting in street clothes at the end of the bench just like Leon on would be. and that being the case, preventing Leon from signing with another team and letting him rehab with the Cs staff is more valuable because you would be able to see how he was progressing and you would be spending very little to do so...

you can argue that your scenario is more realistic, but if it were I would think you could look at the FA list and come up with at least one scenario for us to debate that fits it.

I actually have looked at the list with your scenario in mind, and I don't see how we're getting some valuable piece that would push Scals all the way to the 15th roster spot...

what i think is much more likely is that it would come down to something like:

Rondo
Ray
Paul
KG
Perk

Eddie
Scals
TA
Walker
Baby (some other FA big if Baby signs elesewhere)
Hill - LLE(Barnes, Moon, etc or Marion MLE if PF is not where we spend it)
Sheed MLE (Dice or Smith, Wilcox LLE if PF is where we use the MLE)

JR
Hudson (or Pruitt or some other FA PG)
Leon

I don't see how Leon is wasting a roster spot or hamstringing Danny in FA. He's much more hamstrung by ways to sign players than he is roster spots to put players in...

  You're assuming we're not going to have a backup pg besides Hudson or Pruitt?

just like the last two seasons, Eddie is the backup PG. If you want to add another one different than Pruitt with more experience, like i pointed out on the list, have them take Pruitt's spot on the roster...

  You did notice that they brought in other backup pgs in BOTH of those years, right?

[waltzero]

But whose going to trade for an injured player?  If that can be done, I'm sure Ainge already kicked the tires on that to help Leon out, but nobody bit.

Maybe he tired already but trade talks won't heat up till most of the big FA's sign.

Yeah, Leon is injured, and normally that'd limit any trade potential, but lots of teams are cash poor right now. If you have him in a package, say Tony Allen and 2 million cash, basically you cover his entire salary with a little more on top. Then you are giving them a guy who will cost them nothing while taking a salary off their books. I think it could work with some teams needing to cut a million here and a million there.

Looks like a few more teams will be trying to contend next year than last year. But plenty of teams will be 'thinking long term' next season and people know he's a nice player if he comes back fine.

It's just an idea but it might work this summer. And I think Danny is trying to make a bench player trade.

[Ed Teach]

A bench trade would make a lot of sense.  If the Celtics can move 2 players for one, it would open up an additional roster spot that possibly could be filled by Leon.

[Ed Teach]

Also, it will be intresting to see if Swift ends up on the roster when the season starts.

[mgent]

just in addition, Bud, you mentioned that you think the Powe supporters under value trade chips, but I think you and the "don't sign Leon" contingent undervalue how good Leon actually is..

like a poster just mentioned, there is a strong possibility that Leon signs elsewhere.

And that is the gist of the whole argument.  How good is Leon Powe?  The Powe supporters think Powe is a very good player with the potential to be a starter capable of putting up a double double every night.  The Powe doubters which includes management see Powe as a hard worker but nothing more than a 15 minute backup sub. My contention has always been that management didn't really see Powe as having much potential. Even if Powe had stayed healthy, I doubt the Celtics were going to keep him if other teams had expressed interest in him.  So, if no teams are interested in an injured Leon, the Celtics may offer a contract, if his knee recovers fully.  Yeah, it's business and it sucks, especially after Leon has really given more to the Celtics than the Celtics ever envisioned when signing him to minimum entry level contracts.

Is that why Doc told Leon that he was going to do everything he could to keep him around?

as for what the pro-Leon people think of him as a player, I can only speak for myself. and I don't think of him as a 20/10 player. I think of him as a PERFECT bench/energy big on a championship caliber team...

he's capable of dropping a 20/10 game here and there, but the one thing he will always do is fight for every rebound. the guy just produces and i think the front office would be taking a very low risk in bringing him back into the fold on the chance that he returns to that player.

Actually, I think Powe can be a 20/10 guy, not just a double double guy, with another team, but perhaps not with the Celtics.  How much value does management place in a high energy player coming off the bench?  Apparently with Powe....not much. As far as Rivers' take on Powe, I think he admires Powe's character and work ethic but still doesn't trust him enough to start him or give him extended minutes. I think this is why Powe was sent packing.....good energy guy off the bench but not good enough to be a starter that's now coming off a career threatening injury.  Management is rolling the dice that nobody will be interested and they can get Powe back after their roster has somewhat been settled. To them,it's a minimal risk but I do think it may come back to haunt them.

I basically agree with you here. If Leon was on MEM for instance, he could have been putting up stats that he wouldn't here. not sure about 20/10, but solid numbers for sure.

and I agree that there is minimal risk is signing Leon right now.  I really wish they would rethink this decision.

Have you ever seen Leon start?  He could put up 20/10 easy.  That of course would probably depend on who's playing Center.  More than likely he will end up a mostly defensive player putting up 15/8-ish, much like Perk.  The unfortunate thing about Leon is he takes up your PF position (while he's basically a C), and he his size is gonna be a problem against some teams.  However, coming off the bench he is the ideal role player, and on most nights will still give you 15/8 if you give him 20+ minutes (which he can play no problem).

[scalabrine44mvp]

Why is everyone having such a fit about Leon leaving? Does everyone want to potentially have 5 PF's (KG,SHEED,BBD,SCAL, AND POWE?). We can't keep everyone just because they "helped us win a championship" we have to move on. And in my mind Powe is the last one I would give a rat's a$$ about. He's injury prone, and does not have the skills inside that Sheed or BBD would bring. He is a scrap player and clean's up trash, kind of like Ben Wallace  . WE can't keep everyone on our team, we have a 15 man roster and I would like to see some new talent brought in. BTW im not scared of of anything the Lakers and Cavs have done. Shaq will be lifting his 40 year old a$$ off the bench and Artest is just a replacement for the duo of Ariza and Odom. Signing Sheed would make me even more confident that we will be raising #18!!!!!

[Reyquila]

We havent signed Rasheed yet. In fact we havent signed anybody yet and have potentially lost 3 (Leon, Baby Starbury). Food for thought only.

[Reyquila]

Thank God we still have Scal, TA, Pruitt, Walker, Hudson. We have no problemas, so why worry about Leon?

[winsomme]

No. You're missing the point completely. It's not important at this moment with whom exactly we fill the roster. The point is that it's the scenario Danny should shoot for, and if he signs Powe he can no longer do it. Until that scenario is exhausted, and other similar to it, Powe has no business in our roster.

Again, there are plenty of players out there available for cheap. Many of them you and I know little about at the moment or have out dated data, so again, speculating on who specificically can fill them is rather pointless and not worth the time.

Baby
Sheed
Backup PG (this is a given, whomever it is)

Two spots left. Danny has expressed interest on a veteran backup wing. Who it is? Who knows, but it is something he has to explore.

Again, we're full at the PF position in this scenario, and a backup center would be of more use to us. Who would it be? Who the heck knows. But until Danny explores the options and try to get someone healthy on here that can play, having Powe is not in our best interest...not even close.

And who says we need to fill the last roster spot at the moment? I see little value in having Powe because again, we would be deep in the PF position. If healthy, the only interest I would have in keeping both Powe and Baby would be to trade one of them. That Powe is injured makes the decision of keeping one of them much easier.

I don't think I'll make more responses regarding this matter... we're going in circles and it's a bit annoying.

well I'll leave it at this. I think if you try and come up with a potential scenario where Scals is the 15th roster spot, I think you'll see that it really isn't that realistic...

what is much more plausible is the 15th roster spot is going to go to some signee who will be sitting in street clothes at the end of the bench just like Leon on would be. and that being the case, preventing Leon from signing with another team and letting him rehab with the Cs staff is more valuable because you would be able to see how he was progressing and you would be spending very little to do so...

you can argue that your scenario is more realistic, but if it were I would think you could look at the FA list and come up with at least one scenario for us to debate that fits it.

I actually have looked at the list with your scenario in mind, and I don't see how we're getting some valuable piece that would push Scals all the way to the 15th roster spot...

what i think is much more likely is that it would come down to something like:

Rondo
Ray
Paul
KG
Perk

Eddie
Scals
TA
Walker
Baby (some other FA big if Baby signs elesewhere)
Hill - LLE(Barnes, Moon, etc or Marion MLE if PF is not where we spend it)
Sheed MLE (Dice or Smith, Wilcox LLE if PF is where we use the MLE)

JR
Hudson (or Pruitt or some other FA PG)
Leon

I don't see how Leon is wasting a roster spot or hamstringing Danny in FA. He's much more hamstrung by ways to sign players than he is roster spots to put players in...

  You're assuming we're not going to have a backup pg besides Hudson or Pruitt?

just like the last two seasons, Eddie is the backup PG. If you want to add another one different than Pruitt with more experience, like i pointed out on the list, have them take Pruitt's spot on the roster...

  You did notice that they brought in other backup pgs in BOTH of those years, right?

yeah and each time went back to Eddie...they even had a chance to go in a whole new direction than Eddie after 08 and re-signed him for two years...

anyway, like i pointed out, you can bring in a third string PG if you want and put them in Pruitt's spot....assuming you don't like Pruitt as the third string PG...

[dark_lord]

We havent signed Rasheed yet. In fact we havent signed anybody yet and have potentially lost 3 (Leon, Baby Starbury). Food for thought only.

good thing its only july 4th.

[hwangjini_1]

Also, it will be intresting to see if Swift ends up on the roster when the season starts.

if he is healthy he can be a good player. but i am not sure that he will have much impact in the next year, even if healthy.

hey, maybe danny is laying the foundation for the post-big-celtics already. 

[guava_wrench]

We havent signed Rasheed yet. In fact we havent signed anybody yet and have potentially lost 3 (Leon, Baby Starbury). Food for thought only.

good thing its only july 4th.

Rey,

We can't sign anyone until July 7. Moratorium period. No trades either.

The most we can do is agree upon contracts or trades.

[BballTim]

  You're assuming we're not going to have a backup pg besides Hudson or Pruitt?

just like the last two seasons, Eddie is the backup PG. If you want to add another one different than Pruitt with more experience, like i pointed out on the list, have them take Pruitt's spot on the roster...

  You did notice that they brought in other backup pgs in BOTH of those years, right?

yeah and each time went back to Eddie...they even had a chance to go in a whole new direction than Eddie after 08 and re-signed him for two years...

anyway, like i pointed out, you can bring in a third string PG if you want and put them in Pruitt's spot....assuming you don't like Pruitt as the third string PG...

  When did we go back to Eddie as pg last year? It wasn't in the playoffs...