More on Leon...

[Scalablob990]

Leon is definitely a player worth keeping, but management doesn't want to pay him for basically sitting on the sidelines until February. It's just too bad.

Yet POB and ET sat on the bench their entire stay here, I still do not understand the "full" reason why Danny is so resilient to re-sign Powe to even a minimum contract. Now if Danny brings that bust Robert Swift here i'm going to go bonkers.

They weren't signed to sit on the Bench on purpose!

If Powe heals, we can offer him a contract. Why is that so wrong? Why the rush? We can sign someone to a half-guaranteed contract, and if they don't pan out, cut them during the season at no penalty. Then we can sign Powe. Makes more sense than making a commitment now.

Problem is, that I highly doubt he's going to sit around and wait for us to re-sign him. There are teams already looking to add him. If Orlando tries to recruit him do you really think he's going to refuse? all of the NBA has seen Powe drop 20/10 on contenders, and then follow it up the next game with an equal or better performance.

We aren't speaking of a 37 yr old veteran who is coming off micro, this is a 25 yr old beast who refuses to give up no matter what cost. He won't be around to "pick up" later at our whim.

[timpiker]

You guys have to be kidding.  Give a contract to a player that may never play again?  You bunch of crybabies.

If Leon is able to play again I have no doubt Danny will try to sign him.  If Leon can't paly again, I have no doubt the C's will find a job for him.  Quit your whining!

[Bankshot]

You guys have to be kidding.  Give a contract to a player that may never play again?  You bunch of crybabies.

If Leon is able to play again I have no doubt Danny will try to sign him.  If Leon can't paly again, I have no doubt the C's will find a job for him.  Quit your whining!

I know, right. LOL  This whining over Leon is so funny.

[winsomme]

The problem is that we're not adding players to become our 15th roster spot player. We're adding players to become rotation players or to add depth where needed.

Wether players play or not is of little importance. That they're available to play is what matters most, if not that, that they have some trade value.

Of the 5 roster spots we've yet to fill, at least 4 of those we're looking for people that will be rotation players. The fifth one is better served for adding depth to either the PG position or a center. If we get Sheed and Baby, there's zero reason to add yet another PF since we also have Scal.

Again, didn't we learn anything this past season about depth and health?

Until we go through preseason, etc. we don't know how the roster will look like and who earned roster spots. Who knows who'll be filling the 13th-15th roster spots, so the assumption that they'll be automatically useless is flawed. Maybe it'll be filled with TA, Scal, and a backup center/Giddens/Walker. No way in this scenario are we better served with keeping Powe. So until this sort of scenario is explored, and others like it, Powe has no place being signed.

I'm not saying they'll be useless. I'm saying they won't play. You can only have 12 active players and you are going to have some guys who simply don't play - healthy or not healthy.

There is going to be someone sitting at the end of the bench in suit clothes (that we're paying by the way) and what I'm saying is that it makes no sense for that spot (the 15th) to not be Leon - based on his track record, based on the modest salary required, and based on the time table for his return.

[winsomme]

just in addition, Bud, you mentioned that you think the Powe supporters under value trade chips, but I think you and the "don't sign Leon" contingent undervalue how good Leon actually is..

like a poster just mentioned, there is a strong possibility that Leon signs elsewhere.

[BballTim]

The problem is that we're not adding players to become our 15th roster spot player. We're adding players to become rotation players or to add depth where needed.

Wether players play or not is of little importance. That they're available to play is what matters most, if not that, that they have some trade value.

Of the 5 roster spots we've yet to fill, at least 4 of those we're looking for people that will be rotation players. The fifth one is better served for adding depth to either the PG position or a center. If we get Sheed and Baby, there's zero reason to add yet another PF since we also have Scal.

Again, didn't we learn anything this past season about depth and health?

Until we go through preseason, etc. we don't know how the roster will look like and who earned roster spots. Who knows who'll be filling the 13th-15th roster spots, so the assumption that they'll be automatically useless is flawed. Maybe it'll be filled with TA, Scal, and a backup center/Giddens/Walker. No way in this scenario are we better served with keeping Powe. So until this sort of scenario is explored, and others like it, Powe has no place being signed.

I'm not saying they'll be useless. I'm saying they won't play. You can only have 12 active players and you are going to have some guys who simply don't play - healthy or not healthy.

There is going to be someone sitting at the end of the bench in suit clothes (that we're paying by the way) and what I'm saying is that it makes no sense for that spot (the 15th) to not be Leon - based on his track record, based on the modest salary required, and based on the time table for his return.

  The guys in suit clothes aren't necessarily the same guys every game. What if we have a few injuries? And what is Leon's timetable? Whatever his agent says it is? He might not be fully healthy until 2011.

[winsomme]

The problem is that we're not adding players to become our 15th roster spot player. We're adding players to become rotation players or to add depth where needed.

Wether players play or not is of little importance. That they're available to play is what matters most, if not that, that they have some trade value.

Of the 5 roster spots we've yet to fill, at least 4 of those we're looking for people that will be rotation players. The fifth one is better served for adding depth to either the PG position or a center. If we get Sheed and Baby, there's zero reason to add yet another PF since we also have Scal.

Again, didn't we learn anything this past season about depth and health?

Until we go through preseason, etc. we don't know how the roster will look like and who earned roster spots. Who knows who'll be filling the 13th-15th roster spots, so the assumption that they'll be automatically useless is flawed. Maybe it'll be filled with TA, Scal, and a backup center/Giddens/Walker. No way in this scenario are we better served with keeping Powe. So until this sort of scenario is explored, and others like it, Powe has no place being signed.

I'm not saying they'll be useless. I'm saying they won't play. You can only have 12 active players and you are going to have some guys who simply don't play - healthy or not healthy.

There is going to be someone sitting at the end of the bench in suit clothes (that we're paying by the way) and what I'm saying is that it makes no sense for that spot (the 15th) to not be Leon - based on his track record, based on the modest salary required, and based on the time table for his return.

  The guys in suit clothes aren't necessarily the same guys every game. What if we have a few injuries? And what is Leon's timetable? Whatever his agent says it is? He might not be fully healthy until 2011.

like I said, if we have injuries to the point where you need your 15th player, Leon is making so little money that you can cut him at that point.

as for the timetable for return, the best guess I would say is coming from his DRs...

[BudweiserCeltic]

just in addition, Bud, you mentioned that you think the Powe supporters under value trade chips, but I think you and the "don't sign Leon" contingent undervalue how good Leon actually is..

like a poster just mentioned, there is a strong possibility that Leon signs elsewhere.

Not undervaluing how good Leon is. He's injured, you don't KNOW how good Leon actually is. Maybe he comes back and is pure crap.

And again, you missed the whole point that I brought up. It's quite possible that the final 5 roster spots we have to fill actually become rotational players. Players who are already under contract might be the ones that become the 15th man. In that scenario, having an injured Leon actually takes a spot away from a guy that can be in our rotation.

IF we get Baby and Sheed (which is currently the plan), how "good" you think Leon is/will be is quite pointless. Again, our depth in PF will be very good and his services redudant and uneeded.

So until the roster situation changes for us, via a trade or the likes, Leon can't be signed period. There's a time table for everything, and priorities to take care of. Signing an injured player right now is completely foolish.

[BballTim]

The problem is that we're not adding players to become our 15th roster spot player. We're adding players to become rotation players or to add depth where needed.

Wether players play or not is of little importance. That they're available to play is what matters most, if not that, that they have some trade value.

Of the 5 roster spots we've yet to fill, at least 4 of those we're looking for people that will be rotation players. The fifth one is better served for adding depth to either the PG position or a center. If we get Sheed and Baby, there's zero reason to add yet another PF since we also have Scal.

Again, didn't we learn anything this past season about depth and health?

Until we go through preseason, etc. we don't know how the roster will look like and who earned roster spots. Who knows who'll be filling the 13th-15th roster spots, so the assumption that they'll be automatically useless is flawed. Maybe it'll be filled with TA, Scal, and a backup center/Giddens/Walker. No way in this scenario are we better served with keeping Powe. So until this sort of scenario is explored, and others like it, Powe has no place being signed.

I'm not saying they'll be useless. I'm saying they won't play. You can only have 12 active players and you are going to have some guys who simply don't play - healthy or not healthy.

There is going to be someone sitting at the end of the bench in suit clothes (that we're paying by the way) and what I'm saying is that it makes no sense for that spot (the 15th) to not be Leon - based on his track record, based on the modest salary required, and based on the time table for his return.

  The guys in suit clothes aren't necessarily the same guys every game. What if we have a few injuries? And what is Leon's timetable? Whatever his agent says it is? He might not be fully healthy until 2011.

like I said, if we have injuries to the point where you need your 15th player, Leon is making so little money that you can cut him at that point.

as for the timetable for return, the best guess I would say is coming from his DRs...

  What is the point of signing him and cutting him if you need the roster spot? And what players will be available then? And his doctors aren't going to give any kind of estimate on how long it will take him to play effectively, which is always months after they return to the court.

[waltzero]

Leon is not getting screwed over at all. Everyone knows him by now and everyone knows how much the C's like him and why. Leon will have no problems getting a deal from some team that can afford to wait around to see if he can play again.

We are just too old as a team to have bench guys who definitely aren't going to play half a season and maybe not the whole season. We also probably had to choose between Baby or Leon eventually as one undersized, non-traditional 4 is enough. Leon's injury made the call for us.

The only issue I have is that maybe they should still try to do a sign and trade for him as part of a larger deal, like with Tony Allen. Leon and cash thrown in to cover his deal could be a very attractive part of a package.

[Bankshot]

Leon is not getting screwed over at all. Everyone knows him by now and everyone knows how much the C's like him and why. Leon will have no problems getting a deal from some team that can afford to wait around to see if he can play again.

We are just too old as a team to have bench guys who definitely aren't going to play half a season and maybe not the whole season. We also probably had to choose between Baby or Leon eventually as one undersized, non-traditional 4 is enough. Leon's injury made the call for us.

The only issue I have is that maybe they should still try to do a sign and trade for him as part of a larger deal, like with Tony Allen. Leon and cash thrown in to cover his deal could be a very attractive part of a package.

But whose going to trade for an injured player?  If that can be done, I'm sure Ainge already kicked the tires on that to help Leon out, but nobody bit.

[winsomme]

just in addition, Bud, you mentioned that you think the Powe supporters under value trade chips, but I think you and the "don't sign Leon" contingent undervalue how good Leon actually is..

like a poster just mentioned, there is a strong possibility that Leon signs elsewhere.

Not undervaluing how good Leon is. He's injured, you don't KNOW how good Leon actually is. Maybe he comes back and is pure crap.

And again, you missed the whole point that I brought up. It's quite possible that the final 5 roster spots we have to fill actually become rotational players. Players who are already under contract might be the ones that become the 15th man. In that scenario, having an injured Leon actually takes a spot away from a guy that can be in our rotation.

so you don't think how good a player was before an injury and how hard a worker they are has anything to do with the likelihood that they return to be a player who can contribute to a winning team?

as for some rotational player being our 15th man, I'm not sure what scenario you are talking about there. can you lay it out for me?

[winsomme]

The problem is that we're not adding players to become our 15th roster spot player. We're adding players to become rotation players or to add depth where needed.

Wether players play or not is of little importance. That they're available to play is what matters most, if not that, that they have some trade value.

Of the 5 roster spots we've yet to fill, at least 4 of those we're looking for people that will be rotation players. The fifth one is better served for adding depth to either the PG position or a center. If we get Sheed and Baby, there's zero reason to add yet another PF since we also have Scal.

Again, didn't we learn anything this past season about depth and health?

Until we go through preseason, etc. we don't know how the roster will look like and who earned roster spots. Who knows who'll be filling the 13th-15th roster spots, so the assumption that they'll be automatically useless is flawed. Maybe it'll be filled with TA, Scal, and a backup center/Giddens/Walker. No way in this scenario are we better served with keeping Powe. So until this sort of scenario is explored, and others like it, Powe has no place being signed.

I'm not saying they'll be useless. I'm saying they won't play. You can only have 12 active players and you are going to have some guys who simply don't play - healthy or not healthy.

There is going to be someone sitting at the end of the bench in suit clothes (that we're paying by the way) and what I'm saying is that it makes no sense for that spot (the 15th) to not be Leon - based on his track record, based on the modest salary required, and based on the time table for his return.

  The guys in suit clothes aren't necessarily the same guys every game. What if we have a few injuries? And what is Leon's timetable? Whatever his agent says it is? He might not be fully healthy until 2011.

like I said, if we have injuries to the point where you need your 15th player, Leon is making so little money that you can cut him at that point.

as for the timetable for return, the best guess I would say is coming from his DRs...

  What is the point of signing him and cutting him if you need the roster spot? And what players will be available then? And his doctors aren't going to give any kind of estimate on how long it will take him to play effectively, which is always months after they return to the court.

the point of signing him is to keep another team from signing him. As for returning to playing, if we had him on the roster, we'd have a much better idea of how he is progressing because he would be working with our training staff.....again, for very short money.

[expobear]

just in addition, Bud, you mentioned that you think the Powe supporters under value trade chips, but I think you and the "don't sign Leon" contingent undervalue how good Leon actually is..

like a poster just mentioned, there is a strong possibility that Leon signs elsewhere.

And that is the gist of the whole argument.  How good is Leon Powe?  The Powe supporters think Powe is a very good player with the potential to be a starter capable of putting up a double double every night.  The Powe doubters which includes management see Powe as a hard worker but nothing more than a 15 minute backup sub. My contention has always been that management didn't really see Powe as having much potential. Even if Powe had stayed healthy, I doubt the Celtics were going to keep him if other teams had expressed interest in him.  So, if no teams are interested in an injured Leon, the Celtics may offer a contract, if his knee recovers fully.  Yeah, it's business and it sucks, especially after Leon has really given more to the Celtics than the Celtics ever envisioned when signing him to minimum entry level contracts.

[winsomme]

just in addition, Bud, you mentioned that you think the Powe supporters under value trade chips, but I think you and the "don't sign Leon" contingent undervalue how good Leon actually is..

like a poster just mentioned, there is a strong possibility that Leon signs elsewhere.

And that is the gist of the whole argument.  How good is Leon Powe?  The Powe supporters think Powe is a very good player with the potential to be a starter capable of putting up a double double every night.  The Powe doubters which includes management see Powe as a hard worker but nothing more than a 15 minute backup sub. My contention has always been that management didn't really see Powe as having much potential. Even if Powe had stayed healthy, I doubt the Celtics were going to keep him if other teams had expressed interest in him.  So, if no teams are interested in an injured Leon, the Celtics may offer a contract, if his knee recovers fully.  Yeah, it's business and it sucks, especially after Leon has really given more to the Celtics than the Celtics ever envisioned when signing him to minimum entry level contracts.

Is that why Doc told Leon that he was going to do everything he could to keep him around?

as for what the pro-Leon people think of him as a player, I can only speak for myself. and I don't think of him as a 20/10 player. I think of him as a PERFECT bench/energy big on a championship caliber team...

he's capable of dropping a 20/10 game here and there, but the one thing he will always do is fight for every rebound. the guy just produces and i think the front office would be taking a very low risk in bringing him back into the fold on the chance that he returns to that player.