More on Leon...

[wdleehi]

Does anyone know what the timeline for his return 100% healthy?


Because I think he is one of those players, because of his size limitations at his position, needs to have his legs at 100% to be effective.  

[expobear]

just in addition, Bud, you mentioned that you think the Powe supporters under value trade chips, but I think you and the "don't sign Leon" contingent undervalue how good Leon actually is..

like a poster just mentioned, there is a strong possibility that Leon signs elsewhere.

And that is the gist of the whole argument.  How good is Leon Powe?  The Powe supporters think Powe is a very good player with the potential to be a starter capable of putting up a double double every night.  The Powe doubters which includes management see Powe as a hard worker but nothing more than a 15 minute backup sub. My contention has always been that management didn't really see Powe as having much potential. Even if Powe had stayed healthy, I doubt the Celtics were going to keep him if other teams had expressed interest in him.  So, if no teams are interested in an injured Leon, the Celtics may offer a contract, if his knee recovers fully.  Yeah, it's business and it sucks, especially after Leon has really given more to the Celtics than the Celtics ever envisioned when signing him to minimum entry level contracts.

Is that why Doc told Leon that he was going to do everything he could to keep him around?

as for what the pro-Leon people think of him as a player, I can only speak for myself. and I don't think of him as a 20/10 player. I think of him as a PERFECT bench/energy big on a championship caliber team...

he's capable of dropping a 20/10 game here and there, but the one thing he will always do is fight for every rebound. the guy just produces and i think the front office would be taking a very low risk in bringing him back into the fold on the chance that he returns to that player.

Actually, I think Powe can be a 20/10 guy, not just a double double guy, with another team, but perhaps not with the Celtics.  How much value does management place in a high energy player coming off the bench?  Apparently with Powe....not much. As far as Rivers' take on Powe, I think he admires Powe's character and work ethic but still doesn't trust him enough to start him or give him extended minutes. I think this is why Powe was sent packing.....good energy guy off the bench but not good enough to be a starter that's now coming off a career threatening injury.  Management is rolling the dice that nobody will be interested and they can get Powe back after their roster has somewhat been settled. To them,it's a minimal risk but I do think it may come back to haunt them.

[BudweiserCeltic]

just in addition, Bud, you mentioned that you think the Powe supporters under value trade chips, but I think you and the "don't sign Leon" contingent undervalue how good Leon actually is..

like a poster just mentioned, there is a strong possibility that Leon signs elsewhere.

Not undervaluing how good Leon is. He's injured, you don't KNOW how good Leon actually is. Maybe he comes back and is pure crap.

And again, you missed the whole point that I brought up. It's quite possible that the final 5 roster spots we have to fill actually become rotational players. Players who are already under contract might be the ones that become the 15th man. In that scenario, having an injured Leon actually takes a spot away from a guy that can be in our rotation.

so you don't think how good a player was before an injury and how hard a worker they are has anything to do with the likelihood that they return to be a player who can contribute to a winning team?

as for some rotational player being our 15th man, I'm not sure what scenario you are talking about there. can you lay it out for me?

Again, the 15th man is not the rotational player. The people we acquire may become rotational players AND push people we already have under contract to be our 15th man. Scal for example.

ACL injuries are nothing to laugh at. They are hard to come back from, and hard worker or not, physical ability is deteriorated to some extent. To what extent? No one knows. And there's always the mental aspect.

Then it's about getting cleared to play. After that is trusting your body again to play. After that is getting up to NBA speed once again. Into game shape once again.

[winsomme]

just in addition, Bud, you mentioned that you think the Powe supporters under value trade chips, but I think you and the "don't sign Leon" contingent undervalue how good Leon actually is..

like a poster just mentioned, there is a strong possibility that Leon signs elsewhere.

Not undervaluing how good Leon is. He's injured, you don't KNOW how good Leon actually is. Maybe he comes back and is pure crap.

And again, you missed the whole point that I brought up. It's quite possible that the final 5 roster spots we have to fill actually become rotational players. Players who are already under contract might be the ones that become the 15th man. In that scenario, having an injured Leon actually takes a spot away from a guy that can be in our rotation.

so you don't think how good a player was before an injury and how hard a worker they are has anything to do with the likelihood that they return to be a player who can contribute to a winning team?

as for some rotational player being our 15th man, I'm not sure what scenario you are talking about there. can you lay it out for me?

Again, the 15th man is not the rotational player. The people we acquire may become rotational players AND push people we already have under contract to be our 15th man. Scal for example.

ACL injuries are nothing to laugh at. They are hard to come back from, and hard worker or not, physical ability is deteriorated to some extent. To what extent? No one knows. And there's always the mental aspect.

Then it's about getting cleared to play. After that is trusting your body again to play. After that is getting up to NBA speed once again. Into game shape once again.

so give me the scenario that you are talking about....what kinds of players are you talking about and how are we signing them?

as for the injury, I know it's a tough injury to recover from, I'm just saying that I think some other team is going to sign Leon and then he lost to us. and I think it's worth the gamble based on all the points I've already made (he's works incredibly hard, he was a valuable player before the injury,  he'd be coming back for short money, etc...not to mention that he knows how to recover from this injury because he's had it before...)

[BudweiserCeltic]

Who knows what players. Already told you what type of players should we be looking for, go and look at a list of free-agents and see who are available.

We have the MLE, LLE, and minimum contracts. Looking at the market at the moment, I say plenty of players should be available for cheap.

If they don't come, they don't come. But until this alternatives and options are explored and exhausted, wasting a roster spot on an injured player is a bad basketball decision.

[Scalablob990]

Actually, I think Powe can be a 20/10 guy, not just a double double guy, with another team, but perhaps not with the Celtics.  How much value does management place in a high energy player coming off the bench?  Apparently with Powe....not much. As far as Rivers' take on Powe, I think he admires Powe's character and work ethic but still doesn't trust him enough to start him or give him extended minutes. I think this is why Powe was sent packing.....good energy guy off the bench but not good enough to be a starter that's now coming off a career threatening injury.  Management is rolling the dice that nobody will be interested and they can get Powe back after their roster has somewhat been settled. To them,it's a minimal risk but I do think it may come back to haunt them.

100% Agree with the 20/10, he's put up 20/10 for many of his starts this season and when he wasn't the nasty 20 pt threat he still did his job by drawing charges, playing D, and rebounding. Doc always loved to step on his tail to tell him he was doing things wrong, that was the only thing that drove me wild while fat flobs like scal go out and make a fool of themselves trying to impress with that SENSATIONAL!! "fake hustle" he's so good with....

Not undervaluing how good Leon is. He's injured, you don't KNOW how good Leon actually is. Maybe he comes back and is pure crap.

This isn't your typical NBA player who gets drafted and expects to make money and be a FA prostitute. The man is like a human version of a workhorse and works from sun up to sun down since that's all he knows. If he comes back and he no longer can rebound like the demon he was (which I doubt will occur) he will still play hard nosed D (he got up close and personal with Dirk in that Dallas game remember?) and his best strength besides putbacks is taking charges. Anyone remember he drew like 10 charges to try and keep us in that magic game?

the point of signing him is to keep another team from signing him. As for returning to playing, if we had him on the roster, we'd have a much better idea of how he is progressing because he would be working with our training staff.....again, for very short money.


TP wins, people seem to keep thinking he's going to be around to be "picked up" when the season starts or when next summer comes around. I'm not going to bet, or be a pain in the ass, but if he isn't signed by the end of July or mid august by a team i'll be EXTREMELY surprised. This isn't POB or Scalabrine we just dropped, this is a high quality back-up PF/C who has starter potential.....which I highly doubt will not be hampered much by this injury except for the time he's going to take to rehab it.

[winsomme]

Who knows what players. Already told you what type of players should we be looking for, go and look at a list of free-agents and see who are available.

We have the MLE, LLE, and minimum contracts. Looking at the market at the moment, I say plenty of players should be available for cheap.

If they don't come, they don't come. But until this alternatives and options are explored and exhausted, wasting a roster spot on an injured player is a bad basketball decision.

give me a potential scenario of a roster where Scals is the 15th man...

[expobear]

Who knows what players. Already told you what type of players should we be looking for, go and look at a list of free-agents and see who are available.

We have the MLE, LLE, and minimum contracts. Looking at the market at the moment, I say plenty of players should be available for cheap.

If they don't come, they don't come. But until this alternatives and options are explored and exhausted, wasting a roster spot on an injured player is a bad basketball decision.

This decision is pretty much about money.  The 15th spot on the team is not going to go to anybody who is going to help the Celtics win a championship, no matter how long the Celtics wait, no matter how many deals are made, bottom line.  Powe however, is a proven commodity that can be of service to the Celtics, and if they're contending for a championship again, I'd rather have the option of going to Powe, despite the low probability of him coming back versus the zero probability of a 15th man helping the Celtics in a championship run. It's only going to cost 1.6MM?  Chump change for the Celtics and with all the negative PR, bad, bad business decision.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Who knows what players. Already told you what type of players should we be looking for, go and look at a list of free-agents and see who are available.

We have the MLE, LLE, and minimum contracts. Looking at the market at the moment, I say plenty of players should be available for cheap.

If they don't come, they don't come. But until this alternatives and options are explored and exhausted, wasting a roster spot on an injured player is a bad basketball decision.

give me a potential scenario of a roster where Scals is the 15th man...

No. Not going to do the work for you. Tired of repeating myself like 10 times. Look at the FA class and work it out.

I'll give you the template at least.

PG - Rondo, Backup FA
SG - Ray Allen, House
SF - Pierce, Backup SF, Walker
PF - Garnett, Davis
SF - Perkins, Sheed

12th rotational player. It may very well be Scal. Or it may be another center that gets signed. Or it may be another guard that gets signed. It may be Giddens earning a spot behind House.

TA is pushed outside of the rotation. The last two spots will be taken from the two guys above that didn't make the 12-man rotation, both more valuable than Powe. If it's Scal, his contract alone is more valuable than Powe, plus he's healthy and can contribute. If it's Giddens, he's a talented young kid that can be used as a trade asset, especially when combined with our expiring. These two are under contract anyways as is TA. If it's a backup center/pg, well we'll have to see who Danny signs, but there are plenty of players capable of contributing that are healthy and cheap and are simply one injury away from being back in our 12-man rotation. Plus, they'd be adding depth to positions of need... PF won't be a position of need.

So go look at a free-agent list, and see what you can come up with. There are plenty of more players that we don't have access to or little access to, which is why coming up with speculation of who exactly will be filling out the roster spots is a waste of time. But if they're healthy and skilled, I much rather have them than Powe.

And the point still stands if we manage to keep Davis and get Sheed, which is our priority scenario, having Scal makes us very deep in the PF position. Adding Powe would make little sense, wether he was healthy or not unless Ainge produces some trade scenarios, which I'm not opposed to.

[guava_wrench]

Who knows what players. Already told you what type of players should we be looking for, go and look at a list of free-agents and see who are available.

We have the MLE, LLE, and minimum contracts. Looking at the market at the moment, I say plenty of players should be available for cheap.

If they don't come, they don't come. But until this alternatives and options are explored and exhausted, wasting a roster spot on an injured player is a bad basketball decision.

This decision is pretty much about money.  The 15th spot on the team is not going to go to anybody who is going to help the Celtics win a championship, no matter how long the Celtics wait, no matter how many deals are made, bottom line.  Powe however, is a proven commodity that can be of service to the Celtics, and if they're contending for a championship again, I'd rather have the option of going to Powe, despite the low probability of him coming back versus the zero probability of a 15th man helping the Celtics in a championship run. It's only going to cost 1.6MM?  Chump change for the Celtics and with all the negative PR, bad, bad business decision.

Not much bad PR, as it isn't a big deal to the average fan.

Fans calling money the owners are spending 'chump change' is hard to take seriously. Chump change when it is other people's money. The owners are willing to spend 1.6m x 2 (luxury tax) but not on charity.

The 15th man argument is irrelevant, since there are already people on the roster with guaranteed contracts who are at the end of the bench (Walker, Giddens). This 15th man line of reasoning goes nowhere and is unproductive. A roster spot is a roster spot.

Why are you insisting that the Celtics offer Powe a contract now? Do you at least agree that not extending a qualifying offer was the correct move considering luxury tax implications? Are you saying they then should have signed him to a vet min contract?

[winsomme]

Who knows what players. Already told you what type of players should we be looking for, go and look at a list of free-agents and see who are available.

We have the MLE, LLE, and minimum contracts. Looking at the market at the moment, I say plenty of players should be available for cheap.

If they don't come, they don't come. But until this alternatives and options are explored and exhausted, wasting a roster spot on an injured player is a bad basketball decision.

give me a potential scenario of a roster where Scals is the 15th man...

No. Not going to do the work for you. Tired of repeating myself like 10 times. Look at the FA class and work it out.

I'll give you the template at least.

PG - Rondo, Backup FA
SG - Ray Allen, House
SF - Pierce, Backup SF, Walker
PF - Garnett, Davis
SF - Perkins, Sheed

12th rotational player. It may very well be Scal. Or it may be another center that gets signed. Or it may be another guard that gets signed. It may be Giddens earning a spot behind House.

TA is pushed outside of the rotation. The last two spots will be taken from the two guys above that didn't make the 12-man rotation, both more valuable than Powe. If it's Scal, his contract alone is more valuable than Powe, plus he's healthy and can contribute. If it's Giddens, he's a talented young kid that can be used as a trade asset, especially when combined with our expiring. If it's a backup center/pg, well we'll have to see who Danny signs, but there are plenty of players capable of contributing that are healthy and cheap and are simply one injury away from being back in our 12-man rotation. Plus, they'd be adding depth to positions of need... PF won't be a position of need.

So go look at a free-agent list, and see what you can come up with. There are plenty of more players that we don't have access to or little access to, which is why coming up with speculation of who exactly will be filling out the roster spots is a waste of time. But if they're healthy and skilled, I much rather have them than Powe.

And the point still stands if we manage to keep Davis and get Sheed, which is our priority scenario, having Scal makes us very deep in the PF position. Adding Powe would make little sense, wether he was healthy or not unless Ainge produces some trade scenarios, which I'm not opposed to.

this is your scenario. you should do the work for your scenario. not me.

so until you show what exactly you are talking about with Scals as the 15th roster spot, it's impossible to talk about it.

that leaves Leon or some other FA signee (not a current player under contract) as the 15th roster spot and again there's no reason for that spot not be filled by Leon....

if can come up with a realistic scenario showing Scals as the 15th spot, then we can debate that, but until then, you've put forth a scenario that is impossible to discuss.

here is the list of players we have so far:

Rondo
Ray
Paul
KG
Perk

Eddie
TA
JR
Walker
Scals

who are the last 5 potential signees who would put Scals in the 15th spot and what are we signing them with?

I think it's an interesting angle to take, but I'm just not seeing how it is one that happens...

[BudweiserCeltic]

No. You're missing the point completely. It's not important at this moment with whom exactly we fill the roster. The point is that it's the scenario Danny should shoot for, and if he signs Powe he can no longer do it. Until that scenario is exhausted, and other similar to it, Powe has no business in our roster.

Again, there are plenty of players out there available for cheap. Many of them you and I know little about at the moment or have out dated data, so again, speculating on who specificically can fill them is rather pointless and not worth the time.

Baby
Sheed
Backup PG (this is a given, whomever it is)

Two spots left. Danny has expressed interest on a veteran backup wing. Who it is? Who knows, but it is something he has to explore.

Again, we're full at the PF position in this scenario, and a backup center would be of more use to us. Who would it be? Who the heck knows. But until Danny explores the options and try to get someone healthy on here that can play, having Powe is not in our best interest...not even close.

And who says we need to fill the last roster spot at the moment? I see little value in having Powe because again, we would be deep in the PF position. If healthy, the only interest I would have in keeping both Powe and Baby would be to trade one of them. That Powe is injured makes the decision of keeping one of them much easier.

I don't think I'll make more responses regarding this matter... we're going in circles and it's a bit annoying.

[winsomme]

No. You're missing the point completely. It's not important at this moment with whom exactly we fill the roster. The point is that it's the scenario Danny should shoot for, and if he signs Powe he can no longer do it. Until that scenario is exhausted, and other similar to it, Powe has no business in our roster.

Again, there are plenty of players out there available for cheap. Many of them you and I know little about at the moment or have out dated data, so again, speculating on who specificically can fill them is rather pointless and not worth the time.

Baby
Sheed
Backup PG (this is a given, whomever it is)

Two spots left. Danny has expressed interest on a veteran backup wing. Who it is? Who knows, but it is something he has to explore.

Again, we're full at the PF position in this scenario, and a backup center would be of more use to us. Who would it be? Who the heck knows. But until Danny explores the options and try to get someone healthy on here that can play, having Powe is not in our best interest...not even close.

And who says we need to fill the last roster spot at the moment? I see little value in having Powe because again, we would be deep in the PF position. If healthy, the only interest I would have in keeping both Powe and Baby would be to trade one of them. That Powe is injured makes the decision of keeping one of them much easier.

I don't think I'll make more responses regarding this matter... we're going in circles and it's a bit annoying.

well I'll leave it at this. I think if you try and come up with a potential scenario where Scals is the 15th roster spot, I think you'll see that it really isn't that realistic...

what is much more plausible is the 15th roster spot is going to go to some signee who will be sitting in street clothes at the end of the bench just like Leon on would be. and that being the case, preventing Leon from signing with another team and letting him rehab with the Cs staff is more valuable because you would be able to see how he was progressing and you would be spending very little to do so...

you can argue that your scenario is more realistic, but if it were I would think you could look at the FA list and come up with at least one scenario for us to debate that fits it.

I actually have looked at the list with your scenario in mind, and I don't see how we're getting some valuable piece that would push Scals all the way to the 15th roster spot...

what i think is much more likely is that it would come down to something like:

Rondo
Ray
Paul
KG
Perk

Eddie
Scals
TA
Walker
Baby (some other FA big if Baby signs elesewhere)
Hill - LLE(Barnes, Moon, etc or Marion MLE if PF is not where we spend it)
Sheed MLE (Dice or Smith, Wilcox LLE if PF is where we use the MLE)

JR
Hudson (or Pruitt or some other FA PG)
Leon

I don't see how Leon is wasting a roster spot or hamstringing Danny in FA. He's much more hamstrung by ways to sign players than he is roster spots to put players in...

[BballTim]

No. You're missing the point completely. It's not important at this moment with whom exactly we fill the roster. The point is that it's the scenario Danny should shoot for, and if he signs Powe he can no longer do it. Until that scenario is exhausted, and other similar to it, Powe has no business in our roster.

Again, there are plenty of players out there available for cheap. Many of them you and I know little about at the moment or have out dated data, so again, speculating on who specificically can fill them is rather pointless and not worth the time.

Baby
Sheed
Backup PG (this is a given, whomever it is)

Two spots left. Danny has expressed interest on a veteran backup wing. Who it is? Who knows, but it is something he has to explore.

Again, we're full at the PF position in this scenario, and a backup center would be of more use to us. Who would it be? Who the heck knows. But until Danny explores the options and try to get someone healthy on here that can play, having Powe is not in our best interest...not even close.

And who says we need to fill the last roster spot at the moment? I see little value in having Powe because again, we would be deep in the PF position. If healthy, the only interest I would have in keeping both Powe and Baby would be to trade one of them. That Powe is injured makes the decision of keeping one of them much easier.

I don't think I'll make more responses regarding this matter... we're going in circles and it's a bit annoying.

well I'll leave it at this. I think if you try and come up with a potential scenario where Scals is the 15th roster spot, I think you'll see that it really isn't that realistic...

what is much more plausible is the 15th roster spot is going to go to some signee who will be sitting in street clothes at the end of the bench just like Leon on would be. and that being the case, preventing Leon from signing with another team and letting him rehab with the Cs staff is more valuable because you would be able to see how he was progressing and you would be spending very little to do so...

you can argue that your scenario is more realistic, but if it were I would think you could look at the FA list and come up with at least one scenario for us to debate that fits it.

I actually have looked at the list with your scenario in mind, and I don't see how we're getting some valuable piece that would push Scals all the way to the 15th roster spot...

what i think is much more likely is that it would come down to something like:

Rondo
Ray
Paul
KG
Perk

Eddie
Scals
TA
Walker
Baby (some other FA big if Baby signs elesewhere)
Hill - LLE(Barnes, Moon, etc or Marion MLE if PF is not where we spend it)
Sheed MLE (Dice or Smith, Wilcox LLE if PF is where we use the MLE)

JR
Hudson (or Pruitt or some other FA PG)
Leon

I don't see how Leon is wasting a roster spot or hamstringing Danny in FA. He's much more hamstrung by ways to sign players than he is roster spots to put players in...

  You're assuming we're not going to have a backup pg besides Hudson or Pruitt?

[winsomme]

No. You're missing the point completely. It's not important at this moment with whom exactly we fill the roster. The point is that it's the scenario Danny should shoot for, and if he signs Powe he can no longer do it. Until that scenario is exhausted, and other similar to it, Powe has no business in our roster.

Again, there are plenty of players out there available for cheap. Many of them you and I know little about at the moment or have out dated data, so again, speculating on who specificically can fill them is rather pointless and not worth the time.

Baby
Sheed
Backup PG (this is a given, whomever it is)

Two spots left. Danny has expressed interest on a veteran backup wing. Who it is? Who knows, but it is something he has to explore.

Again, we're full at the PF position in this scenario, and a backup center would be of more use to us. Who would it be? Who the heck knows. But until Danny explores the options and try to get someone healthy on here that can play, having Powe is not in our best interest...not even close.

And who says we need to fill the last roster spot at the moment? I see little value in having Powe because again, we would be deep in the PF position. If healthy, the only interest I would have in keeping both Powe and Baby would be to trade one of them. That Powe is injured makes the decision of keeping one of them much easier.

I don't think I'll make more responses regarding this matter... we're going in circles and it's a bit annoying.

well I'll leave it at this. I think if you try and come up with a potential scenario where Scals is the 15th roster spot, I think you'll see that it really isn't that realistic...

what is much more plausible is the 15th roster spot is going to go to some signee who will be sitting in street clothes at the end of the bench just like Leon on would be. and that being the case, preventing Leon from signing with another team and letting him rehab with the Cs staff is more valuable because you would be able to see how he was progressing and you would be spending very little to do so...

you can argue that your scenario is more realistic, but if it were I would think you could look at the FA list and come up with at least one scenario for us to debate that fits it.

I actually have looked at the list with your scenario in mind, and I don't see how we're getting some valuable piece that would push Scals all the way to the 15th roster spot...

what i think is much more likely is that it would come down to something like:

Rondo
Ray
Paul
KG
Perk

Eddie
Scals
TA
Walker
Baby (some other FA big if Baby signs elesewhere)
Hill - LLE(Barnes, Moon, etc or Marion MLE if PF is not where we spend it)
Sheed MLE (Dice or Smith, Wilcox LLE if PF is where we use the MLE)

JR
Hudson (or Pruitt or some other FA PG)
Leon

I don't see how Leon is wasting a roster spot or hamstringing Danny in FA. He's much more hamstrung by ways to sign players than he is roster spots to put players in...

  You're assuming we're not going to have a backup pg besides Hudson or Pruitt?

just like the last two seasons, Eddie is the backup PG. If you want to add another one different than Pruitt with more experience, like i pointed out on the list, have them take Pruitt's spot on the roster...