FREE POB!

[papa shuttlesworth]

I think playing under Don Nelson also adds at least a couple years to his learning curve.

If I was a center drafted by the Warriors I would hold out or play in Europe until Nelson retired, he's that bad with big men.

[EJPLAYA]

People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

add "play tougher in the low post and do much better at protecting the rock" to the second half and you've pretty much got my view of him.

As i said, he's been much better latley. I think its clear the only way to settle this is to blow out a ton more teams and see if that higher effort level keeps up 

[Andy Jick]

I think playing under Don Nelson also adds at least a couple years to his learning curve.

If I was a center drafted by the Warriors I would hold out or play in Europe until Nelson retired, he's that bad with big men.

you must have not seen what he was able to get out of paul mokeski or randy breuer in the '80s.  he also coached jack sikma...

don nelson is not a big man killer, like some would make him out to be...

[cordobes]

People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

[EJPLAYA]

I think playing under Don Nelson also adds at least a couple years to his learning curve.

If I was a center drafted by the Warriors I would hold out or play in Europe until Nelson retired, he's that bad with big men.

you must have not seen what he was able to get out of paul mokeski or randy breuer in the '80s.  he also coached jack sikma...

don nelson is not a big man killer, like some would make him out to be...

He may not be a big man "killer" but he is no big man "developer". Sure you could stick a more complete player on his team and he won't screw it up, but that doesn't mean that he was the reason that they were successful. I am more inclined to think they were successful in spite of Nellie.

[EJPLAYA]

People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

Not a lot of sense in discussing it with you if you hate the guy so much you aren't willing to admit that the guy has talent. Yes he has a lot of things he needs to work on. If he didn't he would be starting somewhere. He is a project, but I think I will trust Danny's opinion of the guys potential a lot more than yours. Especially when you can't even bring yourself to admit that he has ability.

[cordobes]

People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

Not a lot of sense in discussing it with you if you hate the guy so much you aren't willing to admit that the guy has talent. Yes he has a lot of things he needs to work on. If he didn't he would be starting somewhere. He is a project, but I think I will trust Danny's opinion of the guys potential a lot more than yours. Especially when you can't even bring yourself to admit that he has ability.

I don't hate the guy. Why people keep saying that? That's incredibly childish.

Talk about basketball. Tell me what skills he masters. Counter my arguments. Explain me why he has more potential than Nick Fazekas or David Harrison or tons of other younger 7fters. Or Marcus Haislip, for example.

But "you're a hater" and "Danny knows better than you" are not proper arguments that educated people should use.

[cordobes]

I think playing under Don Nelson also adds at least a couple years to his learning curve.

If I was a center drafted by the Warriors I would hold out or play in Europe until Nelson retired, he's that bad with big men.

Really? Do you have examples of those big men Nelson was so bad with?

[Andy Jick]

I think playing under Don Nelson also adds at least a couple years to his learning curve.

If I was a center drafted by the Warriors I would hold out or play in Europe until Nelson retired, he's that bad with big men.

Really? Do you have examples of those big men Nelson was so bad with?

i am inclined to agree with you...

take a look at this link and then click on the various years to see how his big men performed...you might actually be a bit surprised.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/nelsodo01c.html

[Chris]

People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

Not a lot of sense in discussing it with you if you hate the guy so much you aren't willing to admit that the guy has talent. Yes he has a lot of things he needs to work on. If he didn't he would be starting somewhere. He is a project, but I think I will trust Danny's opinion of the guys potential a lot more than yours. Especially when you can't even bring yourself to admit that he has ability.

I don't hate the guy. Why people keep saying that? That's incredibly childish.

Talk about basketball. Tell me what skills he masters. Counter my arguments. Explain me why he has more potential than Nick Fazekas or David Harrison or tons of other younger 7fters. Or Marcus Haislip, for example.

But "you're a hater" and "Danny knows better than you" are not proper arguments that educated people should use.

While I agree that the "hater" stuff is not necessary, I also don't think that there is any need to discuss the way anyone argues their point. 

This entire discussion needs to calm down.  It is getting way too close to becoming personal, and that just is not what these forums are about. 

So for everyone, lets please stick with arguing the points about the Celtics, and refrain from discussing who are "haters", who have agendas, or who argues in a certain way.  They have no place on these forums.

[crownsy]

I will say that its getting ridiclous support of cor. Ive been told i hate 2 players as well lately for saying they aren't where we need them to be.

criticizm does not  = irrational hatred

as it has been equaited in several threads lately.

[EJPLAYA]

People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

Not a lot of sense in discussing it with you if you hate the guy so much you aren't willing to admit that the guy has talent. Yes he has a lot of things he needs to work on. If he didn't he would be starting somewhere. He is a project, but I think I will trust Danny's opinion of the guys potential a lot more than yours. Especially when you can't even bring yourself to admit that he has ability.

I don't hate the guy. Why people keep saying that? That's incredibly childish.

Talk about basketball. Tell me what skills he masters. Counter my arguments. Explain me why he has more potential than Nick Fazekas or David Harrison or tons of other younger 7fters. Or Marcus Haislip, for example.

But "you're a hater" and "Danny knows better than you" are not proper arguments that educated people should use.

The comment "he has no basketball ability at all" is what gives you that label. I gave you arguments. The guy has a natural offensive instinct. Can finish at the rim, shoots a very high % while out there, instincts to block shots, etc... Yet you don't want to discuss those. I DID counter your argument that the guy has no basketball ability whatsoever. If you still refuse to admit that, then you obviously just hate the guy for some reason. There is no logic to your statement and we all know it is false. Why was the guy a lottery pick? Why did Danny give him that money? That is a proper argument. Stating that these other guys know more than you do is a valid statement. If you were the brilliant basketball talent evaluator you wouldn't be wasting your time on this blog. You'd be in someone's front office. I didn't take my analysis of him to the extreme, you did. I stated that the guy has some skills that I would like to see more of and am optimistic he can develop into a decent backup. I admit he has deficiencies. He needs to correct them to get better and get much PT. Who's being rationale here?!

[papa shuttlesworth]

I think playing under Don Nelson also adds at least a couple years to his learning curve.

If I was a center drafted by the Warriors I would hold out or play in Europe until Nelson retired, he's that bad with big men.

Really? Do you have examples of those big men Nelson was so bad with?

i am inclined to agree with you...

take a look at this link and then click on the various years to see how his big men performed...you might actually be a bit surprised.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/nelsodo01c.html

Thanks for the link.  Maybe I am just biased because I only remember the Run TMC years and beyond.  Since then, I don't think his development of big men has been notable (with the exception of Andris Biedrins and... uh... Pavel Podkolzin?)

[EJPLAYA]

I will say that its getting ridiclous support of cor. Ive been told i hate 2 players as well lately for saying they aren't where we need them to be.

criticizm does not  = irrational hatred

as it has been equaited in several threads lately.

Criticism is not the issue. You criticize players all the time, but make valid points to back up statements. That is not being a "hater". Making extreme arguments that even the poster doesn't believe just to rip a guy is hatred. Why else would you do it?! (Other than maybe not being able to effectively argue your point) Anyone calling you a hater is wrong. When you disagree with someone you tend to try and reasonably argue your side. There are many on here that aren't called out specifically by others as a hater though that lump themselves into that group and are offended which probably just proves they really were.

[crownsy]

People should stop talking about POB like he's some 17 years old who just left high school. He's a 3 years NBA veteran with 2 seasons of college. He's just 1 year younger than Perkins, 6 months younger than Dwight Howard or Gerald Green but 1 year older than Bynum, for example. He's 2/3 years older than guys like Lopez, Love or Oden. This "he'll be better next season, with a Summer of weight lifting" sounds a lot like the "Clifford Ray's coaching/the presence of the Big 3/a better system/etc. will make him a player" conversation of a couple of months ago.

He shows no signs of basketballability so far. Guys like Pruitt or Walker show they can belong on a NBA court during garbage time. Not POB. He still has chances to do it in the future, but time is running out for him. When was the last time in the history of the league that a player who produced so little in his first 3 seasons was still in the league after the 4th? Has it ever happened?

You had me until you said "He shows no signs of basketballability". You see if you'd just make your argument pointing out some specifics without going to the extreme that isn't close to true, then you might alter some mindsets. When you make a comment like that, which no everyone knows is ridiculous, you lose all credibility.

POB has shown many signs of "basketballability" and you know it. He has a very nice offensive game. He has a smooth shot. Can finish strong at the rim. (58% shooting) He has an instinct to block shots. His length allows him to deter shots he can't get to. He can pull down rebounds due to this length. He DOES struggle picking up bad fouls due to slower rotations. That is accurate and needs to improve. To say that he has no ability at all is just plain nonsense and you know it.

I've written enough about POB's skills. I don't value some of that stuff people around here like that much. I know how a pick is supposed to be set and how to roll of it, which foot pivot. Or how to position the feet when guarding the low block on side denial if the ball is above the FT line or bellow it. Very simple things most professional basketball players can do. POB can't execute that stuff.

I know 99% of this forum was liking what they were seeing from POB in the pre-season (and before that). I was seeing someone who didn't know how to play basketball and I said he wouldn't get any minutes to start the season. I'm very comfortable with my assessment of POB so far. He's more or less the same player he was 2 years ago, unable to set a freaking pick with the proper angle. He may improve, he just hasn't showed no signs of it yet.

A smooth jumper from the elbow? John Oates has a better jumper than POB and it's not even close, I can assure you that. It's not even close.

Not a lot of sense in discussing it with you if you hate the guy so much you aren't willing to admit that the guy has talent. Yes he has a lot of things he needs to work on. If he didn't he would be starting somewhere. He is a project, but I think I will trust Danny's opinion of the guys potential a lot more than yours. Especially when you can't even bring yourself to admit that he has ability.

I don't hate the guy. Why people keep saying that? That's incredibly childish.

Talk about basketball. Tell me what skills he masters. Counter my arguments. Explain me why he has more potential than Nick Fazekas or David Harrison or tons of other younger 7fters. Or Marcus Haislip, for example.

But "you're a hater" and "Danny knows better than you" are not proper arguments that educated people should use.

The comment "he has no basketball ability at all" is what gives you that label. I gave you arguments. The guy has a natural offensive instinct. Can finish at the rim, shoots a very high % while out there, instincts to block shots, etc... Yet you don't want to discuss those. I DID counter your argument that the guy has no basketball ability whatsoever. If you still refuse to admit that, then you obviously just hate the guy for some reason. There is no logic to your statement and we all know it is false. Why was the guy a lottery pick? Why did Danny give him that money? That is a proper argument. Stating that these other guys know more than you do is a valid statement. If you were the brilliant basketball talent evaluator you wouldn't be wasting your time on this blog. You'd be in someone's front office. I didn't take my analysis of him to the extreme, you did. I stated that the guy has some skills that I would like to see more of and am optimistic he can develop into a decent backup. I admit he has deficiencies. He needs to correct them to get better and get much PT. Who's being rationale here?!

EJ, you know i love you man, but thats honestly pretty irrational (disagree with me for something i deem false and you clearly hate player x) and a bit personal with some of the stuff in the second half.

I think we all need to just calm down, we are discussing our 12th man here.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle, i think POB is better than cor does, notably offensivly, but i think his defensive let downs, TO's, and personal foul trouble is a pretty vaild concern. To patrick's credit, he has shown me mor ethese last two runs, and moved up a few notchs in my estimation, but he's still way below meanigful playing time level.




I think everyone needs to step back and chill a minute.